When we say clone we really mean fake - don't we?

[Oberon75]

I think a lot of times a big reason for the price is "R&D." Look, it doesn't take a genius to come up with a design that's pretty much the same as every other dripper. There are very few that actually have good innovation and have strayed from the norm for the better. I don't believe materials and "time" can make these things cost as much as they do.

R&D is part of it but I believe it often comes down to perceived value of having an authentic. I mean HANA can charge $300+ for a dna but that still doesn't take away from the fact that they bought the chips that already went through R&D from eVolve for probably well under $60 wholesale. All HANA is really doing is installing it in a box.

 

[Signmaker]

If people were buying $10 clones of genuinley innovative authentics that retailed for $30, I'd be up for some pitchfork and torch action. But $10 clones of $140 authentics that are essentially redesigns of a redesign, just with different engraving...meh. Like most here, the only way I'd be upset is if they were trying to fake the clones as originals.

I see the same thing in the world of tactical nylon gear. Companies like Maxpedition, 5.11, and Hazard 4 realized they had to step up their game to make their gear hold value over the cheaper Chinese copies. I hope "premium" vape makers come to the same conclusion, and either pick up the build quality to match the price, or get out of the way of the Chinese production powerhouses.

 

[Oberon75]

That's the bottom line. Lots of people will claim they can't afford originals but based on cig budgets, just about any one can. You can get a Super T for about $60 and it will shame any clone but cloning abounds because vaping is an obscure market with no controls and really beyond "don't vape here" there are very little government controls. A small manufacturer has no recourse to protect his product other than trademarks. And there are plenty of people who buy clones because they have no moral or ethical issue with it.

But also keep in mind that many of us came from RYO tobacco when our local tobacco B&M's transitioned into vaping B&M's. I certainly can't afford many authentics and so far my vaping hobby is far more expensive then my tobacco habit which consisted of a one time purchase of a $50 machine, $1.79 for a carton of tubes and $15 for 1lb of tobacco. My cigarettes generally cost me about 80 cents pack.

 

[finepics]

Guy's I certainly don't object to anyones individual choice, I was just interested in opinions and the use of the word "clone" having a certain legitimacy and far less meaning than if it simply said "fake"or "replica"!! I wonder how many would buy a given product if it were labelled as such!

Ironically the sad thing for me now is that given the VA Phenom was only released around the beginning of December, and there's already fakes with identical markings and packaging available, am I actually getting the genuine item? When you buy an EHPro Kayfun you at least know what you're getting but now I'll have to check the dealers credentials with VA just to be sure since I'll put money on some people buying a few dozen of these at say $10 each then retailing them at the genuine list price - 150% profit margin!! What a shame!!

 

[WharfRat1976]

Guy's I certainly don't object to anyones individual choice, I was just interested in opinions and the use of the word "clone" having a certain legitimacy and far less meaning than if it simply said "fake"or "replica"!! I wonder how many would buy a given product if it were labelled as such!

Ironically the sad thing for me now is that given the VA Phenom was only released around the beginning of December, and there's already fakes with identical markings and packaging available, am I actually getting the genuine item? When you buy an EHPro Kayfun you at least know what you're getting but now I'll have to check the dealers credentials with VA just to be sure since I'll put money on some people buying a few dozen of these at say $10 each then retailing them at the genuine list price - 150% profit margin!! What a shame!!

 

[xTonyTx]

I too am completely intrigued by the replies and general acceptance of clones, fakes and copies.

I do understand why clones are accepted based on availability and affordability. I'm all for someone vaping within their budget and not walking around with a several hundred dollar mod while they struggle to pay their bills. That's a no-brainer.

Two things I don't like about clones:
It de-values the authentic ones
High amount of B&M stores whose hardware only consists of clones

I was at a shop a couple weeks ago. Listened to the idiot employee tell me their $40 stingray mod is "Still a Stingray.." Then, as I set my mod on the counter to pay for my purchase he looked at it and said "Nice Nemisis Clone.." Which kinda ...... me off, cause it's not a clone. And it's pretty easy to tell the difference.

 

[TheJakeBailey]

My stance on this has evolved over time. Basically...when I was in my try anything and everything stage, I bought a lot of clones. Some were good, some were crap, and it didn't matter who's name was on the box. All were hit and miss. This could be due to ALL vape products being hit or miss, or it could be that some clones were better than others. Now that I've settled down, and refined what I'm looking for in a product, i don't really feel the need to buy a clone most of the time. I can look at a product and usually know what it's high points, and flaws will be, and I also know what I like. The only thing I can tell you based on my own experience, is that anything I have a clone of, and an authentic, the authentic has ALWAYS been better. At the end of the day, they may (or may not) function the same, but quality and longevity are definitely different.

The other side to this, is the affordable authentic market has exploded over the last year. There are SOOOOO many affordable products (RDA, RTA, mechs, and variables) out there, I can see no reason to really buy a clone of anything anymore. Why would you? Unless of course the status symbol IS the motivator. Then it's your moral call to make.

 

[DaveSignal]

I have both authentics and clones, but prefer the 'status symbol' of having a clone. If my collection was all authentic devices, my wife would probably divorce me due to my frivolous spending. Clones require more effort to find the best manufacturers and, with some research, can be had at great prices, even made of the same materials. I specifically like high quality clones. Lately, some clone manufacturers have started using their own branding, such as the A-Mod SMPL, which has "A-Mod" engraved on the switch. awesome.

 

[Oberon75]

I too am completely intrigued by the replies and general acceptance of clones, fakes and copies.

I do understand why clones are accepted based on availability and affordability. I'm all for someone vaping within their budget and not walking around with a several hundred dollar mod while they struggle to pay their bills. That's a no-brainer.

Two things I don't like about clones:
It de-values the authentic ones
High amount of B&M stores whose hardware only consists of clones

I was at a shop a couple weeks ago. Listened to the idiot employee tell me their $40 stingray mod is "Still a Stingray.." Then, as I set my mod on the counter to pay for my purchase he looked at it and said "Nice Nemisis Clone.." Which kinda ...... me off, cause it's not a clone. And it's pretty easy to tell the difference.

Does it really devalue them though? I assume it would make them more sought after. Without the clones, many people wouldn't even know what some of these mods even are.

And I still firmly believe that many of these authentic mods are overpriced to begin with. I feel some of these companies are taking advantage in a way similar to how Bose and Beats takes advantage of audio enthusiasts. I feel it's only a perceived value.

 

[Trypno]

I think of clones more like replicas. In the end, someone is still COPYING an original item. A lot of manufacturers take a harsh stance to the cloning of their products, because a clone is essentially a pirated copy of an original. Not all clones are built to the same specifications and standards as the original, which is what's known as a 1:1 clone. Some clones, however, look like 1:1 matches, but they tend to have small differences, like being made of cheaper materials, or having different material connectors, stuff like that.

Some clones have the logos and identifying marks erased/replaced. These are either complete forgeries, or simply items branded for resale by other companies.

I prefer authentics, it can be hard to get authentics in places where ecigs are banned, but I still disagree with the practice of cloning. It really is no different from bootlegging. The products are typically sold as authentic looking clones, the clomer gets all the profit, while the company that came up with the original product gets nothing.
I've got nothing against people who own clones, most b&ms wouldn't be in business without cheap clones to buy wholesale, but I still think the cloning of products isn't right and, in some cases, could be dangerous.

Then of course there's the rare occasion when a clone is better than the original. I don't have any examples, but I've heard of it before.

And of course, the only time I really think cloning is excusable, is if the original product line was discontinued yet people still want that product. In that case, clones are the only option.

 

[Oberon75]

I think of clones more like replicas. In the end, someone is still COPYING an original item. A lot of manufacturers take a harsh stance to the cloning of their products, because a clone is essentially a pirated copy of an original. Not all clones are built to the same specifications and standards as the original, which is what's known as a 1:1 clone. Some clones, however, look like 1:1 matches, but they tend to have small differences, like being made of cheaper materials, or having different material connectors, stuff like that.

Some clones have the logos and identifying marks erased/replaced. These are either complete forgeries, or simply items branded for resale by other companies.

I prefer authentics, it can be hard to get authentics in places where ecigs are banned, but I still disagree with the practice of cloning. It really is no different from bootlegging. The products are typically sold as authentic looking clones, the clomer gets all the profit, while the company that came up with the original product gets nothing.
I've got nothing against people who own clones, most b&ms wouldn't be in business without cheap clones to buy wholesale, but I still think the cloning of products isn't right and, in some cases, could be dangerous.

Then of course there's the rare occasion when a clone is better than the original. I don't have any examples, but I've heard of it before.

And of course, the only time I really think cloning is excusable, is if the original product line was discontinued yet people still want that product. In that case, clones are the only option.

But don't you think if some of these companies made their prices within reach to begin with, there would be no point in clones? I guess I really don't see it any different then when Kmart used to sell their own brand shoes that looked exactly like Air Jordan's minus the Nike swoosh.

And so many mods look and perform so similar, much of what we call authentic, aren't too far off from being clones. I guess we could go as far as to say every eGo is a clone of the first as well.

 

[finepics]

Is a $100-150 or so really that much out of reach? I can understand things like damascus steel type MOD's being a real luxury and too much for most people (including me)! And frankly the Chinese will clone anything regardless how much it originally costs if they think they can sell it!! They have very little regard for others intellectual property which is why you have to be careful with everything you buy these days, especially with electronics etc! You've only got to walk around the night markets here in HK to see them awash with knock off stuff, not all of which are luxury goods to begin with! Fake SanDisk SD or CF cards are a prime example!!

 

[Oberon75]

Is a $100-150 or so really that much out of reach? I can understand things like damascus steel type MOD's being a real luxury and too much for most people (including me)! And frankly the Chinese will clone anything regardless how much it originally costs if they think they can sell it!! They have very little regard for others intellectual property which is why you have to be careful with everything you buy these days, especially with electronics etc! You've only got to walk around the night markets here in HK to see them awash with knock off stuff, not all of which are luxury goods to begin with! Fake SanDisk SD or CF cards are a prime example!!

It all depends on what it is. I had no problem paying little over $100 for my iPV 2S but what about an iTaste 134? There is absolutely no way it's worth that kind of money. I would even buy a YiHi SX Mini if the price goes down just a little lower.

But there's absolutely no way I would spend $250 to $270 on a Provari or close to $400 for a Hana DNA 40. I know some will disagree but I see absolutely no value in these items even close to the price they are asking. I really feel that if HANA put their products within reach, there would be no reason to clone them.

 

[astrophil]

i started out with clones because i didnt knoiw any different.
i only buy authentic now. not because im "elitest" or anything, but because
1) every clone i bought was absolute crap
2) people who sold said clones to me passed them off as originals
3) so many clones have the authentic logo on them but slightly modified and i feel that people put their hard work into their authentics and its kinda screwed up to copy that work
4) i dont buy new mods every month, so id rather save up some money and buy an original
5) you can get some damn good authentics that arent budget breaking

 

[edyle]

Actually my question was more about the morals of buying a clone of a known brand that someone has spent time and money investing in the development of, especially given how much most of us spend or have spent on cigarettes, since without the original makers there would be no clones, and these days there's a lot of criticism about Chinese made goods especially from the US! The Chinese companies in Baoan Shenzhen are hardly innovators, with the exception of the inventor of the eGig and maybe one or two other companies, most are just small workshops that have jumped onto the vaping bandwagon by simply copying stuff to make a buck!! If you ever visit China you'd know what I mean!

Does the question have anything to do with ecigs/vapegear in particular, or is it just a general question not specific to vape stuff?

 

[skoony]

Guy's I certainly don't object to anyones individual choice, I was just interested in opinions and the use of the word "clone" having a certain legitimacy and far less meaning than if it simply said "fake"or "replica"!! I wonder how many would buy a given product if it were labelled as such!

Ironically the sad thing for me now is that given the VA Phenom was only released around the beginning of December, and there's already fakes with identical markings and packaging available, am I actually getting the genuine item? When you buy an EHPro Kayfun you at least know what you're getting but now I'll have to check the dealers credentials with VA just to be sure since I'll put money on some people buying a few dozen of these at say $10 each then retailing them at the genuine list price - 150% profit margin!! What a shame!!

i have found one of the odd things about the vaping 'community' is the
ability to take a words meaning and attribute another meaning to it.
its not a fake,its a clone.
clone=copy,facsimile,counterfeit,twin,double,reproduction,duplicate.

regards
mike

 

[DaveSignal]

Is a $100-150 or so really that much out of reach? I can understand things like damascus steel type MOD's being a real luxury and too much for most people (including me)! And frankly the Chinese will clone anything regardless how much it originally costs if they think they can sell it!! They have very little regard for others intellectual property which is why you have to be careful with everything you buy these days, especially with electronics etc! You've only got to walk around the night markets here in HK to see them awash with knock off stuff, not all of which are luxury goods to begin with! Fake SanDisk SD or CF cards are a prime example!!

$100 to $150? this could be considered reasonable. But a quick search of prices at a few on-line vape shops that actually sell some authentic devices reveals:
authentic stingray - $250
authentic nemesis - $240
authentic copper skyline - $355
authentic manhattan - $280
authentic overdose - $230
authentic changeling - $250
authentic dimitri - $230
authentic caravlea - $900

I could go on an on. Can I afford these? yes, but more than one would cause serious issues with my spouse regarding the value of money. There are some mods, such as the SMPL or ragnarok, which are in a more affordable range. But I don't want to tell people that I spent all of this money on the real thing. Its kind of embarassing to me. Are all of these authentic devices perfect? no. Do they have less voltage drop than the best clones? no. The only reason to purchase them, over researching and finding a high quality clone, is to 1. be proud that you bought something expensive and 2. let people know that you bought something expensive. I would rather have spent some time researching and finding a device that works at the same level or better for less money and be able to tell people that I am a smart shopper and didn't waste my money.

 

[skoony]

Does it really devalue them though? I assume it would make them more sought after. Without the clones, many people wouldn't even know what some of these mods even are.

And I still firmly believe that many of these authentic mods are overpriced to begin with. I feel some of these companies are taking advantage in a way similar to how Bose and Beats takes advantage of audio enthusiasts. I feel it's only a perceived value.

yes it does devalue authentic's.
i am beginning to see complaints concerning
selling clones as originals on the second hand sales forums.
we have to realize that we on these forums
represent a fraction of the total vaping population.
even fewer of us have the knowledge to know the
difference between a clone or authentic
with all the different mods out there even fewer
of us would have the knowledge.
i wouldn't know,i have never owned a mod.
then there's the 90% or more of the vaping population
that never use forums for anything.
one thing i always suspected as being a reason why
this clone v authentic debate is so hotly contested is
i believe some here have a little more skin in the game
than is apparent to the naked eye.

regards
mike

 

[InTheShade]

But don't you think if some of these companies made their prices within reach to begin with, there would be no point in clones?

I don't think anyone has a right to be able to afford something. The people who make authentic mods have every right to set the price where they like. It's up to each individual to decide if the price offers value to them.

I say this as someone who regularly purchases from Fasttech and I make no apology for doing so. But I also do appreciate original mods, and if I see value in them, I buy them.

The copies and clones I buy, I have no intention of buying the original anyway, so it takes precisely $0 from the manufacturers of them.

I suppose you could argue that having cheaper clone mods out there could devalue the original as someone may purchase a clone and think it's the original.

Some mod makers will tell you they know they have a successful product when theirs is cloned. I could use the Marquis as an example. They sold through their first run of 1,000 RDA's - this device sells at around $180 with the clone being sold at $30 - yet they sold out and are ready to make more.

I would argue that everyone who buys the clone has absolutely no intention of buying the original and those that bought the original appreciate the hard work and see the $180 price tag as offering value to them. I don't think Dino is bothered at all there is a clone version out of his product.

 

[DaveSignal]

Outside of these forums, most people buy clones without even knowing that a $300+ authentic version from a different manufacturer exists. They go to their local vape shops, which mostly sell clones, buy what is there, and are perfectly happy with their devices.

I think that the majority of vapers in the world use clones, some don't know it, and most don't care. But, even if they did know, they wouldn't go out and buy a $300 metal tube just because it is from the original manufacturer. Its just not normal... the world doesn't operate like that.
Then there is a group of 'elite' on these forums who specifically go out of their way, usually including extensive searches though online retailers and possible private messages to authentic manufacturers, just to seek out expensive authentic versions and pay exorbitant prices so that they can tell the other forum members passionate about this hobby that they have high-end gear.

whatever it takes to make you happy.

Nobody has the right to be able to afford something. The device manufacturers can set any prices they want. And if they don't copyright their designs or trademark their logos, anybody else can legally produce the same thing, even to faultlessly exact specifications, and sell it for a lower price if they like. More manufacturers and more choice = more freedom for the consumer.