When we say clone we really mean fake - don't we?

[Kenneth38]

There are differences between clones and authentic, in my eye, clones are fakes, but some of them are good in quality, it depends on your value.

 

[Asbestos4004]

this thread is a clone of about a million other threads. Everyone who participated in this thread or who has read it's content has supported theft.

You're all on report.

 

[Danbrooks2k]

Its just a piece of metal that holds a battery, or holds juice and a coil. They are not fake. They are infact actual pieces of metal and pyrex glass that you can touch.

I dont by Keurig cups, I buy the store brand version. I have ecco cups too that allow me to fill them with my own brand of coffee.

My (ex) wife loved perfume from Escada, I bought her a bottle from a big tent sale ( found out it wasnt authentic )... the bottles side by side were identical, the smell was a 95% match... she actually preferred the fake so I went and got her the rest for valentines day and she loved it.

I own an AR-15 rifle and an AK-47... both are copies of the original design. They both fire bullets very very well.

These threads are clones of other threads. They are either started by someone upset that they spent money on a nice looking mod only to arrive at the vape meet to see 4 other people rocking identical clones and enjoying them for 1/3 the price...

OR

They are started by people that cant afford the original mod that have to justify why buying clones is perfectly fine, and how original mod owners are just jealous elitists.

Who cares? really anyone not sleeping well at night because jimmy paid more for his identical looking metal tube? Do you really feel guilty because you didnt want to drill out your authentic dripper and bought a 1:1 to experiment with?

I have an Atlantis, love it... Bought a clone for less than half on fasttech, also got a clone Tobh Atty and a clone Kanger Subtank. I have a provari that sits in a drawer and a 12$ Smok bolt clone I use regularly when I decide I want to vape with my auhentic IGO-W.

I guess I dont understand the debate here? Im at work wearing 13$ walmart sneakers ( sooo comfy, light and breathe well ) and a 90$ Underarmor hoodie.. its my money, its my stuff... why does anyone care?

 

[Asbestos4004]

$13 Walmart sneakers? Please leave ECF and join NuVapor.

 

[skoony]

I'm going to disagree with this point because unless the work has been patented (and the patents are being enforced) there's no stealing in development and manufacture. Making something that looks like, functions like (or in a similar manner), using the same or similar colors or materials (unless there's a patent or trademark involved) or emulating the competition is what pushes further development. By being innovative what you earn is (hopefully, if your competition isn't just as good as you) the ability to bring your product to market first and establish "name" (which is the industry slang for "reputation") so that even if your competition goes to your same manufacturer, who uses the same machines and people to make virtually the same product yours already has a foothold in the market. Singer, Jones and White sewing machines were clones of each other's for decades and when the Japanese entered the market the same factory that produced Jones and Singer and White sewing machines also cranked out (from the same casts and equipment) Happy and Toyota sewing machines-- those are clones.

Let's say you develop a PV (we'll call it the Vape 5000) and your innovation is a blinking LED display that tells a vaper when they've vaped for about 5 minutes (the average length of a king sized cigarette-- and please dear God let someone read this thread and take the hint.) I see that your Vape 5000 is selling like hotcakes, I track down the components I feel are necessary out of utility but my R&D is 6 months after yours and the servo you used for the LED is not nearly as awesome as the little baby I found for mine-- I have my programmer duplicate your innovation and add my own, which is a counter for every 5 minute vape that resets every 24 hours. I call my new PV the Vap-O-rama. So now I bring to market my Vap-O-rama which looks and functions similar to yours, essentially an improved clone but I have not tread at all on any of your intellectual property or stolen from your development.

If you want to stay ahead of me then you need to do two things: First is establish intellectual property with your next model-- trademark your brand (so I can't copy those specifically trademarked bits) or patent your additional innovation and enforce both. 2nd is to enter into a proprietary manufacturing contract (so that I can't hire the same factory to create a similar item for me.) Rolex doesn't just hire anyone to make their watches, they own their own factories, and they don't farm out any of the parts. Ralph Lauren uses only fabrics specially milled and printed for them, which are sent to factories that have entered into special non-compete contracts that also have to account for the end cuts of fabric (good fakes will be made from the ends, so a lot of times these ends are weighed as part of the accounting that the factory then has to ship back to the corporation for disposal.)

If you want to be a real smarty pants you do some market research and find that my Vap-O-rama is pretty darned good, so you clone it (because presumably I've blocked out all the painful memories from my tenure in the fashion industry and have learned nothing) and release the Vape 6000 *and* the Vape 6000 + (which uses atomantian resistance wire for the core) and you patent the atomantian resistance wire core (so you have the right to exclusive manufacture and license manufacture on the market for the term of patent pending and if approved another term of 10 years or whatever.) Then (because I have really ticked you off) you trademark the "+", the sales copy, and your font. Now all that is off limits to me. What you can't make off limits to me is what I put on the market (my counter and clock) or what you put on the market (your blinking LED indicator.) But you could name your LED indicator something like the "take 5 vape break" and trademark that, and I wouldn't be able to use your "take 5 vape break" phrase (even though I and anyone else can use that technology in exactly the same manner.)

I guess what I'm saying is that if a maker doesn't protect their intellectual property it's probably because it's not owned by anyone and/or couldn't be patented because someone else made it and either failed to protect it or the protection has expired.

the Lanham Act.
15 U.S.C. § 1125 - False designations of origin, false descriptions, and dilution forbidden

(a) Civil action

(1) Any person who, on or in connection with any goods or services, or any container for goods, uses in commerce any word, term, name, symbol, or device, or any combination thereof, or any false designation of origin, false or misleading description of fact, or false or misleading representation of fact, which—

(A) is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive as to the affiliation, connection, or association of such person with another person, or as to the origin, sponsorship, or approval of his or her goods, services, or commercial activities by another person, or
(B) in commercial advertising or promotion, misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person’s goods, services, or commercial activities,
shall be liable in a civil action by any person who believes that he or she is or is likely to be damaged by such act.
mike

 

[skoony]

Every market has clones though and authentic doesn't always mean better. And it never means better when I could buy a video game console, a pair of German engineered audiophile headphones, etc for the same exact price of not cheaper.

If anything would be blamed for devaluing an authentic, it isn't a clone. It's these new lines of authentics which are far cheaper then a Hana or Provari while maintaining a reputation just as good if not better.

Read what people are saying on the boards. All the talk is about iPV's Sigelei's and MVP's. Not Fasttech clones so much anymore. There is really no longer a reason to buy a clone or an over priced Authentic that only costs what it does due to perceived value.

it will in as much as there have been limited runs of mods of 200 even less.
clones of these are still being sold new. when there are thousands of clones
and only a few originals it tends to bring the resell value of the original down
as no one can be sure of its originality. this is more true if the original was
very unique and was much sought after.
as vapers become more knowledgeable i can see problems arising in the future
from people whom thought they had an original actually having a clone.
most people expect that when they buy a Chevy Stingray that is what
they are getting. 80 to 90% of the vapers out there are just average consumers
and have the expectation that what they purchase is not misrepresented as
with all the other products they buy. if they are buying Charmin toilet paper
they have every expectation its Charmin toilet paper.
regards
mike

 

[finepics]

Its just a piece of metal that holds a battery, or holds juice and a coil. They are not fake. They are infact actual pieces of metal and pyrex glass that you can touch.

I dont by Keurig cups, I buy the store brand version. I have ecco cups too that allow me to fill them with my own brand of coffee.

My (ex) wife loved perfume from Escada, I bought her a bottle from a big tent sale ( found out it wasnt authentic )... the bottles side by side were identical, the smell was a 95% match... she actually preferred the fake so I went and got her the rest for valentines day and she loved it.

I own an AR-15 rifle and an AK-47... both are copies of the original design. They both fire bullets very very well.

These threads are clones of other threads. They are either started by someone upset that they spent money on a nice looking mod only to arrive at the vape meet to see 4 other people rocking identical clones and enjoying them for 1/3 the price...

OR

They are started by people that cant afford the original mod that have to justify why buying clones is perfectly fine, and how original mod owners are just jealous elitists.

Who cares? really anyone not sleeping well at night because jimmy paid more for his identical looking metal tube? Do you really feel guilty because you didnt want to drill out your authentic dripper and bought a 1:1 to experiment with?

I have an Atlantis, love it... Bought a clone for less than half on fasttech, also got a clone Tobh Atty and a clone Kanger Subtank. I have a provari that sits in a drawer and a 12$ Smok bolt clone I use regularly when I decide I want to vape with my auhentic IGO-W.

I guess I dont understand the debate here? Im at work wearing 13$ walmart sneakers ( sooo comfy, light and breathe well ) and a 90$ Underarmor hoodie.. its my money, its my stuff... why does anyone care?

Mmm, I'm very very unlikely to meet anyone at a Vape meet since it's totally illegal in my country of residence!! However I just bought a VA Phenom and a Squape R, both original, not because I'm elitist but because I like them and would rather pay a bit more knowing that they'll last (since I don't plan on having a huge collection, I just want to quit the stinkies, and the cost of them is about equal to a month of Marlboro lights) and I've got some come back with them should there be any faults with either!! That's my choice. What saddened me, if you read my other posts, is how quickly the Shenzhen companies have already faked the Phenom (including all the packaging), but since I'm pretty much never going to meet someone else sporting a fake Phenom I guess it doesn't really matter!!

 

[crxess]

Op, what did I say way back at the start of this thread?

Looking Pretty Dead Horse to me

So, to Not start the next Authentic vs. Clone thread in a line of hundreds............You start Clones are Fakes Thread.

Seriously?

So here we are(or rather you all) making up quaint little scenarios to politely call each other Liers/Cheats/Thieves/Immorals

 

[finepics]

I thought I'd asked a perfectly reasonable question given that I'm new to the scene and hate having to trawl through how many thousands of posts just to see if it's been asked already! Anyway surely a discussion board is just that is it not?

 

[skoony]

Exactly. Most of the patent and trademark laws (and subsequent applicable treaties) protect against counterfeit production, but not clones or generics (the two terms are used interchangeably but have slightly different meanings but I'm not sure which is which) that use common technology. Counterfeits are bad, I'm not saying they are good at all, but clones shouldn't be mistaken as being innately immoral or unethical. Going back to sewing machines, although in occupied Japan a Singer machine and a Happy were identical (other than color, Singers were white enamel and the Happys were mostly metallic blue) a Singer still cost more and consumers paid more because the company stood behind the product, the Singer guarantee and replacement warranty still applied just the same as if the machine had been produced in the UK. The Happys? They were cheaper, but didn't come with the same reassurance that the known name brand did-- the customers that purchased the Happys were typically customers that would not have otherwise been able to afford a new sewing machine and would have simply gone without. The market was embiggened and the customers won.

were the Singer and Happy produced under the same company?
mike

 

[skoony]

Its just a piece of metal that holds a battery, or holds juice and a coil. They are not fake. They are infact actual pieces of metal and pyrex glass that you can touch.

I dont by Keurig cups, I buy the store brand version. I have ecco cups too that allow me to fill them with my own brand of coffee.

My (ex) wife loved perfume from Escada, I bought her a bottle from a big tent sale ( found out it wasnt authentic )... the bottles side by side were identical, the smell was a 95% match... she actually preferred the fake so I went and got her the rest for valentines day and she loved it.

I own an AR-15 rifle and an AK-47... both are copies of the original design. They both fire bullets very very well.

These threads are clones of other threads. They are either started by someone upset that they spent money on a nice looking mod only to arrive at the vape meet to see 4 other people rocking identical clones and enjoying them for 1/3 the price...

OR

They are started by people that cant afford the original mod that have to justify why buying clones is perfectly fine, and how original mod owners are just jealous elitists.

Who cares? really anyone not sleeping well at night because jimmy paid more for his identical looking metal tube? Do you really feel guilty because you didnt want to drill out your authentic dripper and bought a 1:1 to experiment with?

I have an Atlantis, love it... Bought a clone for less than half on fasttech, also got a clone Tobh Atty and a clone Kanger Subtank. I have a provari that sits in a drawer and a 12$ Smok bolt clone I use regularly when I decide I want to vape with my auhentic IGO-W.

I guess I dont understand the debate here? Im at work wearing 13$ walmart sneakers ( sooo comfy, light and breathe well ) and a 90$ Underarmor hoodie.. its my money, its my stuff... why does anyone care?

your store brand Keurig most likely was manufactured at the same facility as the original.
your ar-15 and ak 47 are manufactured under license from who ever holds the manufacturing rights.
regards
mike

 

[Ray in KC]

I didn't realise I was rehashing an old debate, as I explained I'm new to this so naive maybe is all! However it's interesting to read some of the replies. I guess some would happily wear a cloned Rolex or Panerai then as they still tell the time!!

Don't let these "USE THE SEARCH BAR MAN!" guys get to you, they like to do that.

I am finding the search bar here to be junk! I have started seaching google for my
questions and it seems to (most the time) bring me right back here for the answer.

 

[finepics]

Thanks for that. Dead horse guy can't resist chipping in though despite his opinion!!

 

[Ray in KC]

Thanks for that. Dead horse guy can't resist chipping in though despite his opinion!!

Friend request all of'em you run across!

 

[Oberon75]

it will in as much as there have been limited runs of mods of 200 even less.
clones of these are still being sold new. when there are thousands of clones
and only a few originals it tends to bring the resell value of the original down
as no one can be sure of its originality. this is more true if the original was
very unique and was much sought after.
as vapers become more knowledgeable i can see problems arising in the future
from people whom thought they had an original actually having a clone.
most people expect that when they buy a Chevy Stingray that is what
they are getting. 80 to 90% of the vapers out there are just average consumers
and have the expectation that what they purchase is not misrepresented as
with all the other products they buy. if they are buying Charmin toilet paper
they have every expectation its Charmin toilet paper.
regards
mike

I can understand that point however wouldn't that be just a fake and not a clone? Now if somebody is trying to pass off a fake as an original, that's a problem. But if they are simply just cloning the product and marketing their version of it (Tobeco, EHPro, Cloupor), I don't see a problem with that.

 

[tj99959]

If I was to buy a Cadillac I would expect it to be a Cady ..... not a Chevy with a different grill.

 

[skoony]

I can understand that point however wouldn't that be just a fake and not a clone? Now if somebody is trying to pass off a fake as an original, that's a problem. But if they are simply just cloning the product and marketing their version of it (Tobeco, EHPro, Cloupor), I don't see a problem with that.

calling a product a clone if it has all the same styling,ergonomic and designs of the authentic
does not make it a non-fake. i other word a side by side comparison they look identical.
an expert might be able to see subtle differences,most average consumers wont.
saying in the style of or this type dos not mean its not fake either for the same reasons.
if one took a mettle tube and switch and battery and made a mod in his own styling,
ergonomics and design to set it apart by being obviously not some one else's product
that would be fine. he could even say compare this to the other product which is ok.
i think this distinction is lost in the vaping world. it certainly applies for all other
consumer goods.
regards
mike

 

[Oberon75]

calling a product a clone if it has all the same styling,ergonomic and designs of the authentic
does not make it a non-fake. i other word a side by side comparison they look identical.
an expert might be able to see subtle differences,most average consumers wont.
saying in the style of or this type dos not mean its not fake either for the same reasons.
if one took a mettle tube and switch and battery and made a mod in his own styling,
ergonomics and design to set it apart by being obviously not some one else's product
that would be fine. he could even say compare this to the other product which is ok.
i think this distinction is lost in the vaping world. it certainly applies for all other
consumer goods.
regards
mike

But if that's the case, we could call the majority of products (authentics even), clones of something. I guess I don't see a bunch of different companies making Kayfuns or DNA style boxes to be any different then a bunch of different companies making very similar looking RDA's. Many of these are only seen as Authentic because they are made by small business giving them cool, hip names instead of Chinese companies just calling it either their version of it or their version of what it really is.

 

[skoony]

But if that's the case, we could call the majority of products (authentics even), clones of something. I guess I don't see a bunch of different companies making Kayfuns or DNA style boxes to be any different then a bunch of different companies making very similar looking RDA's. Many of these are only seen as Authentic because they are made by small business giving them cool, hip names instead of Chinese companies just calling it either their version of it or their version of what it really is.

that's what muddies the waters some what.for things produced here
its pretty evident a lot of these companies are ordering their parts from the
same supplier,slapping a rudimentary design on the box and away you go.
the market is changing though. some of these newer v w box mods
are being built from scratch from the box to the displays and circuitry.
uniqueness in design and placement of components to distinguish
them from other products is a sure sign that in the future companies
are going to not stand by and watch from the sidelines.
another problem that seams to be over looked is products developed
and made in China do not have any protections as we have here.
they quite vigorously copy each others work with no apparent hard
feelings. that's what happened to the first ego type battery.there are
many ego type batteries out there and there all legal because
they were developed and made in China first.this is true of any
product that originates there and is manufactured there.
now if an American company started producing an ego type battery
here and made it better and sold it at the same price point or lower
then the ego you can bet your bottom dollar a Chinese Trade Commision
would be camped out on every court house step in the country.

regards
mike

 

[DaveP]

Absolutely not true, that's just an old rumor. Time to put the SvoëMesto KayFun-Russian rumors to rest.

By the way, Kebo doesn't produce anything, they are just a reseller. The Russian and the Russian 91% are made by a company in China called UTC, (Upper Class Technology).

Just proves that you can't trust everything you read on the internet.