If original is made in China and fakes and clones are made in China then it is not my problem to worry about. It is China's problem to sort out. My only worry is what I get better be a good one. 
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When we say clone we really mean fake - don't we?
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Rehashed Hash turning into Mush.
Like I said, Same old Same old.
Does not matter what the reason it is still BEATING A DEAD HORSE.
Indeed. There's nothing morally wrong in my eyes. Some may see it differently. Nobody is going to win so there's no point in bringing it up.
Ironically he work for Big tobacco too. Consider the patent ran out legally it is fair game.
Look at the patent...
Patent US3200819 - Smokeless non-tobacco cigarette - Google Patents
just wait until the cloned toasters and coffee makers start suing each other.
Then you can also go back and look at other similar devices..
http://www.google.com/patents/US2860638
I should add to answer the OP "Since there are clones of these already available I wonder what your thought's on this are? "
I don't give a hoot. Even the originals are clones of each other.
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Your Key Wording is the only saving grace.
As you well know many of us use PV's or APV's - Personal Vaporizers.
The Real History of Electronic Cigarettes | V2 Electronic Cigarettes Blog
Gilbert Patented a Non - tobacco product that Vaporized and therefore falls into an ongoing catagory of inventions.
All previous inventors working in Personal Vaporization were stepping stones to get us to where we are today.
I thank them All for their advancements.
Generally life is about stepping no matter the business or service.
Aye mate as do I.
This clone debate though is silly. Buy or don't buy. Let the manufacturers and their attorney's figure it out like we do in every other business or we can have some idiots send fake cease and desist letter and look like total fools.
I could care less if it's a 100 gold plated fake as long as it works as well and costs me a fraction of the overpriced original. I get irritated every time I walk into a B&M store and see an array of FT items at triple the price. Buy what you can afford is my motto.
I didn't realise I was rehashing an old debate, as I explained I'm new to this so naive maybe is all! However it's interesting to read some of the replies. I guess some would happily wear a cloned Rolex or Panerai then as they still tell the time!!
Someone did a study a few years ago where they gave participants sunglasses (I believe, may have been some other accessory) and told groups that they were real or knockoffs or uninformed. They later rated the honesty of the participants. The conclusion was that participants told that they were wearing the knock offs were much more comfortable being dishonest after a few days than participants that were told they were wearing the authentic product and the control group (who were simply given the item and not informed as to it's authenticity.)
On the street level (since I'm assuming we're not dealers or manufacturers) you could (if you have a well trained eye for knockoffs) have a slight advantage when you meet people by being able to gauge their general level of honesty. Since behavioral studies have shown since the 50s that dishonest people seem to be less aware of when they themselves are being lied to (even though many have the believe that everyone lies) this might become a HUGE advantage in negotiations.
I do not wear a watch. I do not need a status symbol to make myself seem better than others. I like to let the person inside of me do that.
When I did buy watches it would not be over 10 bucks. I was very active and replacing a 10 buck watch was easier to take than a 3k watch.
Too each their own... maybe you need to drive a Mazerati and wear a Rolex to define yourself. Me nahhhhh.
When I think of someone selling fakes, most likely they're trying to pass it off as the real thing (aka counterfeits.) Most manufacturers market them as clones (because they are) and a lot of them now are doing logoless and whatnot.
Howdy,
Clones are typically 1:1 copies and yes sometimes even include the logo, the parts may be sub-par or plated to avoid the astronomical cost of making them out of..say pure silver or medical grade 304 stainless steel. Some are good and some are not, they are higher quality then the next group.
Fakes, these are not done to spec and often times use very sub par materials, they normally do include some semblance to the original logo but its rarely the same. I've found maybe 2 that work correctly without major modification to the device.
As for supporting the original manufacture vs supporting clones as a comparison to funding anything illegal it is not. You can only improve a battery tube so much and competition is healthy for innovation in a sense (if you want to sell hardware, you'll have to get creative kind of thing).
I don't really have a grudge against clones or authentic, meet me in real life and I won't even ask you which it is because more importantly I don't really care, most don't actually except a small group of elite individuals that I don't interact with anyways. I've been and still am cash strapped so I typically skip authentic unless someone is being really, really nice to me and deep discounts it (free), beyond that most of my stuff isn't authentic.
Clones are typically 1:1 copies and yes sometimes even include the logo, the parts may be sub-par or plated to avoid the astronomical cost of making them out of..say pure silver or medical grade 304 stainless steel. Some are good and some are not, they are higher quality then the next group.
Fakes, these are not done to spec and often times use very sub par materials, they normally do include some semblance to the original logo but its rarely the same. I've found maybe 2 that work correctly without major modification to the device.
As for supporting the original manufacture vs supporting clones as a comparison to funding anything illegal it is not. You can only improve a battery tube so much and competition is healthy for innovation in a sense (if you want to sell hardware, you'll have to get creative kind of thing).
I don't really have a grudge against clones or authentic, meet me in real life and I won't even ask you which it is because more importantly I don't really care, most don't actually except a small group of elite individuals that I don't interact with anyways. I've been and still am cash strapped so I typically skip authentic unless someone is being really, really nice to me and deep discounts it (free), beyond that most of my stuff isn't authentic.
Could it actually be the market correcting itself? If someone, anywhere, can make and sell a product for 1000% less than the original and still make money, something smells funny in original-ville. And when this is the case, why should the onus be on the consumer to "do the right thing"? If the originators of these products want to limit cloning, stop pricing your product like it's a finite freakin' resource. There are plenty of honest folks out here who would spend an extra bone or two for the original but 10 times the cost of that clone on eBay...I think not.
I prefer clones anyway, any design flaws or issues presented with authentics are usually corrected or improve upon in clones/fakes
Until these "innovators" bring their prices down to a realistic scale, clones will continue to be made and bought by consumers....
Until these "innovators" bring their prices down to a realistic scale, clones will continue to be made and bought by consumers....
I think a lot of times a big reason for the price is "R&D." Look, it doesn't take a genius to come up with a design that's pretty much the same as every other dripper. There are very few that actually have good innovation and have strayed from the norm for the better. I don't believe materials and "time" can make these things cost as much as they do.
It's a legitimate use of the forum. Ignore those that expect you to have read and absorbed every single thread about every single possible subject since the forum was founded. The forum search function is notoriously finicky as well...
It's an interesting debate and yes, has been discussed many times. Almost every time this comes up though, I see a point of view I may not have considered before, so it all adds to the knowledge base.
Still, you are beating a dead horse
"a small group of elite individuals that I don't interact with anyways" sounds like a nice way of saying "self-important, judgmental douche-nozzles". Please do correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks for the replies everyone, it's certainly interesting to read peoples views which was why I was asking. I used to be heavily into the fake watch scene some years ago and like this forum there are forums dedicated to making improvements to the fake watches so that they're totally indistinguishable from their genuine counterpart. There was a code among forum members that they would never try to pass off a watch as the real thing (although I'm sure some did). The moral high ground was never really debated that much as we all saw it that the companies that manufacture brand name watches are totally exploiting the customer by astronomically pricing their products (beyond the reach of the average person such as the luxury goods market is), whereas the actual costs of manufacture and the vast profits they make aren't at all related!
But these are big corporations unlike the 4 man team? behind the Vicious Ant label. Their manufacturing costs must be extremely high since to set up an engineering shop just to produce these devices can't be cheap (especially to produce the steel/brass tubing that VA use). The companies in China that make the clones are existing engineering companies with very low labour costs that have simply diversified into what's a fairly lucrative market and legitimise their products by using the word clone! If it weren't for those small companies that spent time and money making the devices we all use there would be no clones in the first place! I bought a Vicious Ant Phenom not because I'm being a snob but because I consider the safety lock to be very innovative (for a change) and the use of steel and brass tubing makes a visual aesthetic that is pretty unique! Given that I smoked a pack a day I can more than easily afford one of these, even at $160 or so, just by saving up the money I would have spent on stinkies for about two weeks!
Incidentally I no longer have any fake watches but instead I have a couple from a little one man operation in Germany where the quality is easily on a par with the big names but the price point is far more affordable and realistic, and because they're from a small company who's not churning out thousands of the same style every year they're quite unique!!
PS - you can already buy a "clone" VA Phenom on Alibaba, there are at least 12 companies offering it at quantities of up to 10,000 per day from $5-14 depending on order numbers complete with the same packaging as the genuine item. Minimum order must be 10 units!! And I bet if you asked VA if they were happy about it they wouldn't be!!
But these are big corporations unlike the 4 man team? behind the Vicious Ant label. Their manufacturing costs must be extremely high since to set up an engineering shop just to produce these devices can't be cheap (especially to produce the steel/brass tubing that VA use). The companies in China that make the clones are existing engineering companies with very low labour costs that have simply diversified into what's a fairly lucrative market and legitimise their products by using the word clone! If it weren't for those small companies that spent time and money making the devices we all use there would be no clones in the first place! I bought a Vicious Ant Phenom not because I'm being a snob but because I consider the safety lock to be very innovative (for a change) and the use of steel and brass tubing makes a visual aesthetic that is pretty unique! Given that I smoked a pack a day I can more than easily afford one of these, even at $160 or so, just by saving up the money I would have spent on stinkies for about two weeks!
Incidentally I no longer have any fake watches but instead I have a couple from a little one man operation in Germany where the quality is easily on a par with the big names but the price point is far more affordable and realistic, and because they're from a small company who's not churning out thousands of the same style every year they're quite unique!!
PS - you can already buy a "clone" VA Phenom on Alibaba, there are at least 12 companies offering it at quantities of up to 10,000 per day from $5-14 depending on order numbers complete with the same packaging as the genuine item. Minimum order must be 10 units!! And I bet if you asked VA if they were happy about it they wouldn't be!!
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That's the bottom line. Lots of people will claim they can't afford originals but based on cig budgets, just about any one can. You can get a Super T for about $60 and it will shame any clone but cloning abounds because vaping is an obscure market with no controls and really beyond "don't vape here" there are very little government controls. A small manufacturer has no recourse to protect his product other than trademarks. And there are plenty of people who buy clones because they have no moral or ethical issue with it.
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