When we say clone we really mean fake - don't we?

[Oberon75]

yes it does devalue authentic's.
i am beginning to see complaints concerning
selling clones as originals on the second hand sales forums.
we have to realize that we on these forums
represent a fraction of the total vaping population.
even fewer of us have the knowledge to know the
difference between a clone or authentic
with all the different mods out there even fewer
of us would have the knowledge.
i wouldn't know,i have never owned a mod.
then there's the 90% or more of the vaping population
that never use forums for anything.
one thing i always suspected as being a reason why
this clone v authentic debate is so hotly contested is
i believe some here have a little more skin in the game
than is apparent to the naked eye.

regards
mike

Every market has clones though and authentic doesn't always mean better. And it never means better when I could buy a video game console, a pair of German engineered audiophile headphones, etc for the same exact price of not cheaper.

If anything would be blamed for devaluing an authentic, it isn't a clone. It's these new lines of authentics which are far cheaper then a Hana or Provari while maintaining a reputation just as good if not better.

Read what people are saying on the boards. All the talk is about iPV's Sigelei's and MVP's. Not Fasttech clones so much anymore. There is really no longer a reason to buy a clone or an over priced Authentic that only costs what it does due to perceived value.

 

[Coldrake]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/apv-discussion/604037-list-mods-100-less-not-clone.html

 

[DaveP]

IMO, it's a fake if the box is cloned to look like the original, complete with all logos and printing. Some even go as far as to try to clone the theft proofing methods with the same or similar stickers and holograms. Aspire had a huge problem with the Nautilus.

It's a clone if it's produced by a different company that puts its own name on the box and stands on its own reputation by producing something that is virtually the same as another product. Kayfun is a SvoeMesto clone of a product called the Russian 91% that was first produced by a company called Kebo.

 

[HauntedMyst]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/apv-discussion/604037-list-mods-100-less-not-clone.html

Awesome link and destroys any reason to buy a clone.

 

[Coldrake]

Kayfun is a SvoeMesto clone of a product called the Russian 91% that was first produced by a company called Kebo.

Absolutely not true, that's just an old rumor. Time to put the SvoëMesto KayFun-Russian rumors to rest.

By the way, Kebo doesn't produce anything, they are just a reseller. The Russian and the Russian 91% are made by a company in China called UTC, (Upper Class Technology).

 

[WillyZee]

I began to think about the whole fake market! As a former fake watch aficionado for many years I can't help but wonder if it's funding criminal cartels the same way the fake watch and other fake industry does? So given how much I spend on cigarettes I decided to buy a genuine RBA and MOD (Squape R and VA Phenom) instead to at least support the innovators of this possibly life saving alternative to cigarettes!

you may have also prevented someone from getting whacked and fitted with cement shoes by the criminal cartels

for sure a life saving choice

 

[HauntedMyst]

If anything would be blamed for devaluing an authentic, it isn't a clone. It's these new lines of authentics which are far cheaper then a Hana or Provari while maintaining a reputation just as good if not better.

Read what people are saying on the boards. All the talk is about iPV's Sigelei's and MVP's. Not Fasttech clones so much anymore. There is really no longer a reason to buy a clone or an over priced Authentic that only costs what it does due to perceived value.

Actually, that isn't historically the case though I do agree with it these days. Quality, economically priced brand names have finally caught up to the market, especially in the atty world like the Aspires, Kangers, etc. You can finally get a vape that's in line with a mod/atty that a year or two ago would have cost much more or required build knowledge and I think that is an awesome thing. It's still has no impact on the clone/authentic debate. Someone cloning a Kanger is still someone stealing the work Kanger did. Some will argue that the Kanger clone is more reasonably priced and they can't afford the original Kanger, therefore they have no problem buying the fake.

 

[WendyM]

It's still has no impact on the clone/authentic debate. Someone cloning a Kanger is still someone stealing the work Kanger did.

I'm going to disagree with this point because unless the work has been patented (and the patents are being enforced) there's no stealing in development and manufacture. Making something that looks like, functions like (or in a similar manner), using the same or similar colors or materials (unless there's a patent or trademark involved) or emulating the competition is what pushes further development. By being innovative what you earn is (hopefully, if your competition isn't just as good as you) the ability to bring your product to market first and establish "name" (which is the industry slang for "reputation") so that even if your competition goes to your same manufacturer, who uses the same machines and people to make virtually the same product yours already has a foothold in the market. Singer, Jones and White sewing machines were clones of each other's for decades and when the Japanese entered the market the same factory that produced Jones and Singer and White sewing machines also cranked out (from the same casts and equipment) Happy and Toyota sewing machines-- those are clones.

Let's say you develop a PV (we'll call it the Vape 5000) and your innovation is a blinking LED display that tells a vaper when they've vaped for about 5 minutes (the average length of a king sized cigarette-- and please dear God let someone read this thread and take the hint.) I see that your Vape 5000 is selling like hotcakes, I track down the components I feel are necessary out of utility but my R&D is 6 months after yours and the servo you used for the LED is not nearly as awesome as the little baby I found for mine-- I have my programmer duplicate your innovation and add my own, which is a counter for every 5 minute vape that resets every 24 hours. I call my new PV the Vap-O-rama. So now I bring to market my Vap-O-rama which looks and functions similar to yours, essentially an improved clone but I have not tread at all on any of your intellectual property or stolen from your development.

If you want to stay ahead of me then you need to do two things: First is establish intellectual property with your next model-- trademark your brand (so I can't copy those specifically trademarked bits) or patent your additional innovation and enforce both. 2nd is to enter into a proprietary manufacturing contract (so that I can't hire the same factory to create a similar item for me.) Rolex doesn't just hire anyone to make their watches, they own their own factories, and they don't farm out any of the parts. Ralph Lauren uses only fabrics specially milled and printed for them, which are sent to factories that have entered into special non-compete contracts that also have to account for the end cuts of fabric (good fakes will be made from the ends, so a lot of times these ends are weighed as part of the accounting that the factory then has to ship back to the corporation for disposal.)

If you want to be a real smarty pants you do some market research and find that my Vap-O-rama is pretty darned good, so you clone it (because presumably I've blocked out all the painful memories from my tenure in the fashion industry and have learned nothing) and release the Vape 6000 *and* the Vape 6000 + (which uses atomantian resistance wire for the core) and you patent the atomantian resistance wire core (so you have the right to exclusive manufacture and license manufacture on the market for the term of patent pending and if approved another term of 10 years or whatever.) Then (because I have really ticked you off) you trademark the "+", the sales copy, and your font. Now all that is off limits to me. What you can't make off limits to me is what I put on the market (my counter and clock) or what you put on the market (your blinking LED indicator.) But you could name your LED indicator something like the "take 5 vape break" and trademark that, and I wouldn't be able to use your "take 5 vape break" phrase (even though I and anyone else can use that technology in exactly the same manner.)

I guess what I'm saying is that if a maker doesn't protect their intellectual property it's probably because it's not owned by anyone and/or couldn't be patented because someone else made it and either failed to protect it or the protection has expired.

 

[kosst amojan]

I'd advise everyone to read this gentlemen's post from a few months back:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/super-t-manufacturing/593757-other-thoughts-clones-counterfeits.html#post13906638

n justifying their opinion, they point to the price of Chinese clones/counterfeits. What they fail to realize time and time again is that Chinese manufacturing is often heavily subsidized by their gov't, from the factories and equipment, to materials, labor and even shipping. The Chinese will even sell products at a loss just to gain a market monopoly. You can gain no insight into US production costs by comparing to the Chinese.

The Chinese are also not burdened with the taxes and insurance US Manufactures have. For example, here at Super-T we carry four insurance policies, two required by MN law and the other two required by the leasing companies (Workmans Comp, Propertly Liability, Unemployment and Equipment (fire, theft). Couple that with equipment loan payments, Shop rent, Employee wages, Tooling, electricity, product material and subcomponent costs and a myriad of other costs(website,product design, plating, advertising, CC processors, drafting, accountant, engineering etc) and you can start to see the real costs involved in producing just a "round tube".

I've only had one cloned product and that's when I got back into vaping and didn't know better, I tossed that kayfun clone out long ago and got an original. Regardless of the lack of laws in China, when buying a clone you are assisting in the theft of someones intellectual property.

I've only heard a few rebuttals to this simple fact:

"Some manufacturers don't mind, they even encourage it!"

Yeah...and? If my neighbor is ok with you stealing a pie off their window still it doesn't mean it's ok for you to steal mine.

...seriously don't. I own a lot of guns.

"Oh it's just a variation off of a common invention"

Then fine, make your own damn variation.

"Authentics are too expensive"

What does our ability to afford something have to do with morality? Even if it were a life necessity (I say it doesn't matter) if you can't afford it then that should be it.

Now I hate making arguments and not at least trying to come up with solutions. I do like a few Chinese products like Aspire but I have no problem putting a tariff on their stuff equal to our over taxation and over regulation. If not we can at least treat cloned products as counterfeit if they advertise as clones of a trademarked product

 

[wheelie]

Very impressive. A newbie got a seven page thread. LOL

 

[HauntedMyst]

I'm going to disagree with this point because unless the work has been patented (and the patents are being enforced) there's no stealing in development and manufacture. Making something that looks like, functions like (or in a similar manner), using the same or similar colors or materials (unless there's a patent or trademark involved) or emulating the competition is what pushes further development. By being innovative what you earn is (hopefully, if your competition isn't just as good as you) the ability to bring your product to market first and establish "name" (which is the industry slang for "reputation") so that even if your competition goes to your same manufacturer, who uses the same machines and people to make virtually the same product yours already has a foothold in the market. Singer, Jones and White sewing machines were clones of each other's for decades and when the Japanese entered the market the same factory that produced Jones and Singer and White sewing machines also cranked out (from the same casts and equipment) Happy and Toyota sewing machines-- those are clones.

Let's say you develop a PV (we'll call it the Vape 5000) and your innovation is a blinking LED display that tells a vaper when they've vaped for about 5 minutes (the average length of a king sized cigarette-- and please dear God let someone read this thread and take the hint.) I see that your Vape 5000 is selling like hotcakes, I track down the components I feel are necessary out of utility but my R&D is 6 months after yours and the servo you used for the LED is not nearly as awesome as the little baby I found for mine-- I have my programmer duplicate your innovation and add my own, which is a counter for every 5 minute vape that resets every 24 hours. I call my new PV the Vap-O-rama. So now I bring to market my Vap-O-rama which looks and functions similar to yours, essentially an improved clone but I have not tread at all on any of your intellectual property or stolen from your development.

If you want to stay ahead of me then you need to do two things: First is establish intellectual property with your next model-- trademark your brand (so I can't copy those specifically trademarked bits) or patent your additional innovation and enforce both. 2nd is to enter into a proprietary manufacturing contract (so that I can't hire the same factory to create a similar item for me.) Rolex doesn't just hire anyone to make their watches, they own their own factories, and they don't farm out any of the parts. Ralph Lauren uses only fabrics specially milled and printed for them, which are sent to factories that have entered into special non-compete contracts that also have to account for the end cuts of fabric (good fakes will be made from the ends, so a lot of times these ends are weighed as part of the accounting that the factory then has to ship back to the corporation for disposal.)

If you want to be a real smarty pants you do some market research and find that my Vap-O-rama is pretty darned good, so you clone it (because presumably I've blocked out all the painful memories from my tenure in the fashion industry and have learned nothing) and release the Vape 6000 *and* the Vape 6000 + (which uses atomantian resistance wire for the core) and you patent the atomantian resistance wire core (so you have the right to exclusive manufacture and license manufacture on the market for the term of patent pending and if approved another term of 10 years or whatever.) Then (because I have really ticked you off) you trademark the "+", the sales copy, and your font. Now all that is off limits to me. What you can't make off limits to me is what I put on the market (my counter and clock) or what you put on the market (your blinking LED indicator.) But you could name your LED indicator something like the "take 5 vape break" and trademark that, and I wouldn't be able to use your "take 5 vape break" phrase (even though I and anyone else can use that technology in exactly the same manner.)

I guess what I'm saying is that if a maker doesn't protect their intellectual property it's probably because it's not owned by anyone and/or couldn't be patented because someone else made it and either failed to protect it or the protection has expired.

There is the technical legal side of it and there is moral and ethical side of it. From what I've read you would have no problem copying someone else's work as long as there is no legal encomburance to it. So in your work environment, do you take co-workers work and claim it as your own if you can get away with it on a technicality? If not, why not? Wouldn't that be easier and cheaper for you?

 

[Oberon75]

There is the technical legal side of it and there is moral and ethical side of it. From what I've read you would have no problem copying someone else's work as long as there is no legal encomburance to it. So in your work environment, do you take co-workers work and claim it as your own if you can get away with it on a technicality? If not, why not? Wouldn't that be easier and cheaper for you?

But obviously the moral and ethical side only works in a businesses favor who markets their product as Authentic. Even though the vast majority of mods are just ripoffs of one another.

 

[WendyM]

There is the technical legal side of it and there is moral and ethical side of it. From what I've read you would have no problem copying someone else's work as long as there is no legal encomburance to it. So in your work environment, do you take co-workers work and claim it as your own if you can get away with it on a technicality? If not, why not? Wouldn't that be easier and cheaper for you?

I didn't create the rules, I didn't write the laws or treaties but from the industries that I've worked in I've had a first hand view of how those rules benefits the public good and keeps industries from going stale. Remember the Betamax? Sony was aces when it came to protecting its property and we were all too happy to give it a pass even though it was superior to VHS because no one wanted to deal exclusively with Sony as the only supplier and distributer. Yeah, that was awesome.

No, I don't take credit (or blame) for anyone else's work. I'm also very careful not to steal or plagiarize from others. Why? Not because I'm innately more moral but because I'm competent as a professional and stealing is what incompetent people do. I fail to see how being incompetent is easier and cheaper.

 

[WendyM]

But obviously the moral and ethical side only works in a businesses favor who markets their product as Authentic. Even though the vast majority of mods are just ripoffs of one another.

Exactly. Most of the patent and trademark laws (and subsequent applicable treaties) protect against counterfeit production, but not clones or generics (the two terms are used interchangeably but have slightly different meanings but I'm not sure which is which) that use common technology. Counterfeits are bad, I'm not saying they are good at all, but clones shouldn't be mistaken as being innately immoral or unethical. Going back to sewing machines, although in occupied Japan a Singer machine and a Happy were identical (other than color, Singers were white enamel and the Happys were mostly metallic blue) a Singer still cost more and consumers paid more because the company stood behind the product, the Singer guarantee and replacement warranty still applied just the same as if the machine had been produced in the UK. The Happys? They were cheaper, but didn't come with the same reassurance that the known name brand did-- the customers that purchased the Happys were typically customers that would not have otherwise been able to afford a new sewing machine and would have simply gone without. The market was embiggened and the customers won.

 

[finepics]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/apv-discussion/604037-list-mods-100-less-not-clone.html

Sorry but that just doesn't hold water - here's some for you - not a huge list I know but there's quite a few if you dig around:

Up to $100

BAHAG “Bumblebee” Mod

IBALOI MOD V2

VCO Mod by Aethertech

Project Sub-Ohm™ Edition VCO V2 Mod by Aethertech

Ragnarok SS Mod by VLS

Ragnarok Full Copper Mod by VLS

FUFDA Mod by Ursimian

Tugboat Mod by Flawless

The "fatbaby"™ 100 Watts Mod V1.5 by Project Sub-Ohm

$100-150:

V-Creations GMS Brass/SS Mechanical Mod

Zephyr Mechanical Mod by CMII

Colonial Mod by Mad Industries

Brushed Aluminum Colonial Mod by Mad Industries

CU Copper Mod by High Valley Mods

Paragon Aluminum/Carbon Fiber Mod V3 by Paragon Mods

Prax1S Mod by Praxis Vapors

Prax2S Mod by Praxis Vapors

Doomsday End of Clone Mod by Intergalactic Industries

The Bearded One Mod by Beardvape

Lifestyle Mod by AVP ("The Beginning to a new Lifestyle")

Project Sub-Ohm™ "thinmaN"™ 150 Watts iPV3 Mod by Pioneer4you

Many of the above have several variations in choice of either colours or materials and quite a few more brands at $155 and $160 so there are affordable choices out there! And that's just from one webshop so if I could be bothered to do more digging I'd bet I can find a few more!!

 

[finepics]

IMO, it's a fake if the box is cloned to look like the original, complete with all logos and printing. Some even go as far as to try to clone the theft proofing methods with the same or similar stickers and holograms. Aspire had a huge problem with the Nautilus.

It's a clone if it's produced by a different company that puts its own name on the box and stands on its own reputation by producing something that is virtually the same as another product. Kayfun is a SvoeMesto clone of a product called the Russian 91% that was first produced by a company called Kebo.

And that's my point. The VA Phenom has only been on the market for about 6 weeks or so and already there's this!! I can get these at $10/pc if I buy enough of them!!

 

[wheelie]

Mark me down on the list for $10. LOL

 

[Mike 586]

$100 to $150? this could be considered reasonable. But a quick search of prices at a few on-line vape shops that actually sell some authentic devices reveals:
authentic stingray - $250
authentic nemesis - $240
authentic copper skyline - $355
authentic manhattan - $280
authentic overdose - $230
authentic changeling - $250
authentic dimitri - $230
authentic caravlea - $900

I could go on an on. Can I afford these? yes, but more than one would cause serious issues with my spouse regarding the value of money. There are some mods, such as the SMPL or ragnarok, which are in a more affordable range. But I don't want to tell people that I spent all of this money on the real thing. Its kind of embarassing to me. Are all of these authentic devices perfect? no. Do they have less voltage drop than the best clones? no. The only reason to purchase them, over researching and finding a high quality clone, is to 1. be proud that you bought something expensive and 2. let people know that you bought something expensive. I would rather have spent some time researching and finding a device that works at the same level or better for less money and be able to tell people that I am a smart shopper and didn't waste my money.

As far as I'm concerned, to take a 22mm'ish tube, throw a re-purposed switch design at one end, a 510 at the other, some pretty in the middle requires is no feat of engineering.

I've yet to see a manufacturer that gives safety ratings for its own devices in the form of amp ratings, lists its voltage drop, lists any specifications of any kind directly related to the devices performance let alone guaranteeing those numbers.

Meanwhile I can buy any one of thousands of products that meet certain safety ratings, manufacturing standards, environmental ratings, carry certifications and have their operating characteristics clearly specified. For the kind of money the typical 'authentic mod' goes for I can buy things like TVs, tablets, phones, drills, Fluke testers, cameras and on and on. Most of those devices are exponentially more complex requiring multiple R&D teams working in collaboration to create, exponentially more intricate to physically manufacture, and some of them serve niche markets made in low quantities much like the typical mech mod. Though they have to meet numerous manufacturing standards, certifications or safety standards before they are allowed onto the market.

Meanwhile a modder can slap one of these things together, ask hundreds of dollars for it while making no performance guarantees, giving no safety limits, meeting no certification/safety/manufacturing standards of any kind.

All that said, I've got no problems at all spending a lot of money, I just don't see how an 'authentic' can possibly justify the prices they're asking when they're offering a metal tube with a switch and nothing else to back it up outside of meaningless sales pitch.

Give me guarantees, performance data, ratings and maybe I'd be willing to pay about a third of what they're currently asking. Knowing what I know about how they are produced, I'm being very generous.

 

[kosst amojan]

I could have sworn I posted a link a page or two back to a post from a guy who makes mechanical mods explaining all of that, do people not read entire threads anymore?

 

[finepics]

As far as I'm concerned, to take a 22mm'ish tube, throw a re-purposed switch design at one end, a 510 at the other, some pretty in the middle requires is no feat of engineering.

I've yet to see a manufacturer that gives safety ratings for its own devices in the form of amp ratings, lists its voltage drop, lists any specifications of any kind directly related to the devices performance let alone guaranteeing those numbers.

Meanwhile I can buy any one of thousands of products that meet certain safety ratings, manufacturing standards, environmental ratings, carry certifications and have their operating characteristics clearly specified. For the kind of money the typical 'authentic mod' goes for I can buy things like TVs, tablets, phones, drills, Fluke testers, cameras and on and on. Most of those devices are exponentially more complex requiring multiple R&D teams working in collaboration to create, exponentially more intricate to physically manufacture, and some of them serve niche markets made in low quantities much like the typical mech mod. Though they have to meet numerous manufacturing standards, certifications or safety standards before they are allowed onto the market.

Meanwhile a modder can slap one of these things together, ask hundreds of dollars for it while making no performance guarantees, giving no safety limits, meeting no certification/safety/manufacturing standards of any kind.

All that said, I've got no problems at all spending a lot of money, I just don't see how an 'authentic' can possibly justify the prices they're asking when they're offering a metal tube with a switch and nothing else to back it up outside of meaningless sales pitch.

Give me guarantees, performance data, ratings and maybe I'd be willing to pay about a third of what they're currently asking. Knowing what I know about how they are produced, I'm being very generous.

Given that the vaping industry isn't regulated (something I'm sure many are dreading the possibility of) then of course almost no one provides any data like this when they're not required to! If a product didn't live up to expectations then the internet word would very quickly spread and no one would buy it!!

However, having owned a lathe and made numerous small parts for watches in the past I can tell you that making many of these devices is no simple thing either. The investment required in CNC machinery and tooling is considerable if doing your own manufacturing, and the knowledge required to provide accurate detailed technical designs using CAD/CAM software to a machine shop, if outsourcing, is also considerable and not something just anyone could do. Materials and machine shop costs would need to paid up front and once that's done typically several prototypes have to be made to iron out minor design flaws before going into full production before there's any return. And none of the reviewers has yet been able to work out how Vicious Ant is able to make their mixed brass and stainless steel tubing (not plated or a simple lamination) so doubtless their material costs would have been quite high! Most of these companies are just small one man, or a few man, teams trying to make a business and likely need to sell considerable numbers to recoup the initial outlay before turning a profit, and certainly in the case of VA their sub $200 price point I feel is fair! Given the example of a clear fake that I posted earlier I'd be extremely worried if I was them.

The lesson here might be to those that do purchase a branded product to check they're getting it from a reliable source in case they're being sold a fake, because how else can you tell!! Caveat Emptor!!