While you're at it mention standardizing RY4 as the primer. It's a popular Chinese flavor but then there would be rant threads about hating RY4 and detesting the fact attys are primed with it.
Where's the outrage about primer?
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throatkick" data-source="post: 2546727" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">throatkick said:
Yes I plan to email the manufacturer. However I don't trust the Chinese to provide a truthful answer if it is something that maybe harmful. I'd like to test whats on these myself but no idea how as of yet, perhaps sending to a laboratory but an initial testing would be nice to get an idea. There must be some simple way to determine the general nature of the so called primer or possibly exclude what it's not. My initial guess would be that it's an oil of some sort, however I'm not so certain since doesn't necessarily feel as oily as other tooling oil I've come across.
This type of conversation is really why I started the thread so we can hopefully actually figure out what it is.
The biggest problem I see is that there is only on supplier of E2’s. And their Quality Control and Hypoallergenic approaches towards making E2’s is abysmal. What is needed is some competition in the E2 market. That would bring manufactures in line to produce a better product.
BTW – I have always disliked the term “Primer Fluid”. If you have read much in the “Big” E2 thread or in Bad’s Tips and Tricks thread you would see that I always referee to it as “Mystery Fluid”. Because now one can tell you what the fluid is.
And Don’t listen to people who tell you it is pure PG or Pure VG. Many members have cleaned and dry burned an E2, or atty, and then vaped either Pure PG or Pure VG. None of them will tell you that it tastes anything like the Horrible taste of Burning Mystery Fluid.
Many have speculated on exactly what Mystery Fluid is. Machine Oil? Seal Lubricant? Impurities in the wick material? Bat Piss? A few, like myself have questioned exactly what the purpose of Mystery Fluid and why in 2011 after 4 major revisions MiT can’t produce a cartomizer that isn’t contaminated with it?
But the long and the short is that they can’t or choose not to. So Anyone using an new E2 carto, or any type of atomizer for that matter, should be diligent about cleaning and dry burning Before their first fill.
BTW – I have always disliked the term “Primer Fluid”. If you have read much in the “Big” E2 thread or in Bad’s Tips and Tricks thread you would see that I always referee to it as “Mystery Fluid”. Because now one can tell you what the fluid is.
And Don’t listen to people who tell you it is pure PG or Pure VG. Many members have cleaned and dry burned an E2, or atty, and then vaped either Pure PG or Pure VG. None of them will tell you that it tastes anything like the Horrible taste of Burning Mystery Fluid.
Many have speculated on exactly what Mystery Fluid is. Machine Oil? Seal Lubricant? Impurities in the wick material? Bat Piss? A few, like myself have questioned exactly what the purpose of Mystery Fluid and why in 2011 after 4 major revisions MiT can’t produce a cartomizer that isn’t contaminated with it?
But the long and the short is that they can’t or choose not to. So Anyone using an new E2 carto, or any type of atomizer for that matter, should be diligent about cleaning and dry burning Before their first fill.
Agreed; there are ways around it. But does a person who comes here and read recommendations of what to buy and where to buy it know that? I did a lot of research before buying my stuff, and even read about "primer fluid" in attys, but the most common recommendation I read was to blow it out, with no real consensus of whether to blow from the battery end or the cart end. I read about cleaning attys, but not brand-new attys.
I'm sorry, but this is the "It's got to be better than cigarettes" argument again, and as I said above, I don't consider it a good argument. Neither of us know what's in the "mystery" primer oil. And the chemical composition of cigarette smoke is very well-documented; although that certainly doesn't make it good for you, you can find that information easily.
Again, you're comparing it to cigarette smoke. That isn't the point, at all. I could say to you "here's a PV filled with liquid cyanide. Want to try it?"
Saying "it's got to be better than cigarette smoke" doesn't help you much there.
I agree. I don't mean to come off as combative, although I suspect it's too late.
The suppliers don't have a clue. They buy this stuff in bulk quantities from China, and the stuff they receive is sealed.
As JackSam said, I don't trust a Chinese manufacturer to give a valid answer.
I'm glad I know now to clean out attys. I worry that the nasty taste will turn off potential vapers (it almost did so to me), and I worry about the potential hazard of inhaling whatever that oily stuff is. I agree that answers would be nice, but I doubt they're coming any time soon, because of the nature of Chinese products. Remember all the lead that was found in the paint on children's toys from China?
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Frick we're both on the same page, here. Comparing it to cigarettes is pointless because you don't know what you're comparing. I switched to vaping simply because I saw benefit in not filling my lungs with tar however smoking something like an oil, solvent or some other industrial chemical may be significantly worse than smoking cigarettes in the first place.
Right now there's no guarantee we're getting it all out using our cleaning methods, even after alcohol soaks some wicks still turn black for a split second before going white during a dry burn indicating the presence of something being burned up in the wick or on the surface of wick strands. This burn off only happens at the coil, the rest of the wick may have this substance embedded then slowly deliver this it along with flavored PG over the life of the atomizer without taste.
Really I don't understand how someone could argue it's not a possible issue or concern.
This holds true for anything in life. There will always be people that are more willing and more capable to research things. You are in a better position and have the motivation, so please do it.
Being old and tired does not make it an invalid point. I have tried everything possible to quit without success. Many methods were tried multiple times and some in conjunction with each other. Assuming vaping is a much safer alternative to smoking in general, (as many studies are indicating) cleaning out an atty is something I gladly do. This doesn't mean unsuspecting vapers should have to inhale whatever that substance is. Again, there is a simple way around this and we covered it before by discussing the inclusion of a note or perhaps multiple stickies around here etc.
I have never expected the FDA to care for my health. Imagine how much faith I put in a $3 per day employee in some Chinese factory. There is a simple way around this and it is up to us to come up with solutions. You have identified something valid.
Help to correct it. You are adding fuel to this fire instead of helping to put it out.
I agree. I don't mean to come off as combative, although I suspect it's too late.
The suppliers don't have a clue. They buy this stuff in bulk quantities from China, and the stuff they receive is sealed.
As JackSam said, I don't trust a Chinese manufacturer to give a valid answer.
I'm glad I know now to clean out attys. I worry that the nasty taste will turn off potential vapers (it almost did so to me), and I worry about the potential hazard of inhaling whatever that oily stuff is. I agree that answers would be nice, but I doubt they're coming any time soon, because of the nature of Chinese products. Remember all the lead that was found in the paint on children's toys from China?
Exactly. Now do your part and scream off the rooftops. Thanks.
Perhaps I have not made myself clear........
My concern is not about the primer and whether or not it is dangerous. You are probably right about it being bad. My concern lies more in the fact there is an entire industry that relies on subverting the truth.
The FDA has already very clearly spun their findings.
For some, what you are saying will create questions about vaping in general.
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Ok so the initial major problem here is for any type of real DIY identification I can undertake basically involves density, solubility and boiling point. All this requires some decent sample size which means it needs to be taken from multiple ce2's or atomizers or whatever.
How would one extract this though without contaminating the unknown substance. Rubbing alcohol is normally only 90% or lower isoproyl and I know from sensitive electronic work that other 10% does leave a residue after evaporation so that seems like it's a poor choice. Distilled water shake and evap? but if the substance is insoluble with water that won't help.
I'm also not sure how the identification would work if it's a mix of various substances.
How would one extract this though without contaminating the unknown substance. Rubbing alcohol is normally only 90% or lower isoproyl and I know from sensitive electronic work that other 10% does leave a residue after evaporation so that seems like it's a poor choice. Distilled water shake and evap? but if the substance is insoluble with water that won't help.
I'm also not sure how the identification would work if it's a mix of various substances.
No idea what this has to do with the FDA, if anything at all it would just provide additional incentive for A) people to complain to the FDA B) the FDA to have additional cause for more regulation. There's plenty of FDA sucks threads though, I don't think there's any need for that in here.
My point was that I did the research and still sucked a complete evening's-worth of disgusting-tasting whatever mystery juice into my lungs. Nothing warned me to actually actively clean the atty; I was told numerous times to simply blow it out.
I didn't dismiss your argument on the basis of its being "old and tired", I did so on the basis that "it's better than a bullet to the temple" is just as valid an argument. It doesn't get us anywhere.
Agreed entirely. I'd much rather vape than smoke, which is why I care about things like this so much. Let's not turn off potential vapers with a disgusting first night of vaping. I almost gave up on it and sent it all back, myself.
You and I know that now. New vapers don't, or wouldn't without some particularly pointed research.
Agreed again. Like I said, I don't want an argument; I want a solution. It just surprises me that there are hundreds (thousands?) of people here buying new attys all the time, using cartos and whatever else, without there being a general uproar regarding what exactly it is that we have to either clean out (not easily done with a carto) or vape our way through.
I guess some people just blow out an atty and vape on it until the Mystery Fluid is gone. But those are usualy the same type of people who clean their ears with an ice pick while driving over railroad tracks. Not the brightess bulbs in the box.
So take what you read here on the ECF with a grain of salt. Sometimes Bad advise is worse than no advise at all.
Frick, we are pretty much agreed.
Jacksam, we are saying the same thing. We either do our best to eliminate potential problems (assuming they can be) or it will be done for us. Unfortunately there are those just waiting to seize the opportunity (I will take it a step further and say CREATE the opportunity) to close any gaps. This is why I initially said the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.
This is a matter of perception. Wording does make a difference. Consider these headlines:
CLEAN ATTYS THOROUGHLY BEFORE VAPING
OR
POOR MANUFACTURING TECHNIQUES CREATE SERIOUS CONCERNS ABOUT ELECTRONIC CIGARETTE
Assuming there is a very easy way to remove the fluid, do you think for one second the article following the second headline will elaborate? Hardly. Maybe a retraction or correction a week later on page 22 that requires 10x magnification to view.
Jacksam, we are saying the same thing. We either do our best to eliminate potential problems (assuming they can be) or it will be done for us. Unfortunately there are those just waiting to seize the opportunity (I will take it a step further and say CREATE the opportunity) to close any gaps. This is why I initially said the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.
This is a matter of perception. Wording does make a difference. Consider these headlines:
CLEAN ATTYS THOROUGHLY BEFORE VAPING
OR
POOR MANUFACTURING TECHNIQUES CREATE SERIOUS CONCERNS ABOUT ELECTRONIC CIGARETTE
Assuming there is a very easy way to remove the fluid, do you think for one second the article following the second headline will elaborate? Hardly. Maybe a retraction or correction a week later on page 22 that requires 10x magnification to view.
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We're really not saying the same thing at all. You clearly said you have no concern about the primer.
I don't care about headlines or the FDA or perception here. I want to know whats this nasty tasting packing fluid and if my cleaning methods are sufficient to remove it if it is toxic.
And there is no matter of perception. Manufacturers are leaving/adding something toxic before shipment that tastes nasty, or they're leaving/adding something non-toxic before shipping that tastes nasty, or they may actually be using a real primer that's neither nasty tasting or toxic and safe to inhale.
If it's toxic it's not acceptable anyway you phrase it and it will look bad because it is bad.
I don't care about headlines or the FDA or perception here. I want to know whats this nasty tasting packing fluid and if my cleaning methods are sufficient to remove it if it is toxic.
And there is no matter of perception. Manufacturers are leaving/adding something toxic before shipment that tastes nasty, or they're leaving/adding something non-toxic before shipping that tastes nasty, or they may actually be using a real primer that's neither nasty tasting or toxic and safe to inhale.
If it's toxic it's not acceptable anyway you phrase it and it will look bad because it is bad.
I have to agree with throatkick on the fact that us raising the issue could potentially become a headline-worthy issue against e-cigarettes in general. As you've read, I definitely share your concerns, not only about potential hazards of this stuff, and what exactly it is, and how it may also turn off potential vapers, but it's an issue for the manufacturers of these things to address.
I understand e-cigarettes are popular in Asia; I wonder how it is that they haven't (through 'natural selection' in the marketplace) weeded out the manufacturers who use this nasty primer in favor of those who don't, or those who use PG or some other 'safe' vapeable liquid in place of the primer.
At a place I used to work, we used to get a lot of Chinese metal parts coming in. They'd come in in very cheap cardboard boxes, and they were wrapped in what we used to call "oil paper" (like a wax paper loaded with brown oil). The boss explained to me that they do that because the metal has to spend a lot of time on a cargo ship on saltwater, and the parts would rust to nothing before they got here if they didn't do the "oil paper" thing. I wonder if the attys in China are primer-free, and they load the US-bound stuff up with oil to keep it from rusting? Although I think everything in there is stainless anyway, but there may be parts of the atty (the coil?) that aren't.
How about just directly dripping onto bridge, puffing BUT NOT INHALING. Just blow out the vapor and primer. I do this process over and over, until I feel confident taste is off. Somtimes there's a little left, and I continue the process, but it usually takes a dozen runs until there's no more primer taste.
This doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Am I missing something?
This doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Am I missing something?
Do you mean this?
You can read that and honestly say I do not care about the primer? If you take it out of context...maybe.
Agreed 10000% So call your supplier and ask if some brands of attys have that primer and others not. Assuming they know, they will be able to solve this for you almost instantly. Then you should know which manufacturers need to be contacted as well. Contact casaa and the nvc. Share your concern and tell them what you have found out. This will probably bring you far closer to an answer much more quickly than getting argumentative with someone who agrees with you.
Not recommending you sweep this under the rug by any means. I'm just suggesting an alternative form of action.
My attys are made in China and I'm just a stone's throw away in South Korea and we get primer in our attys too.
Blow out the primer, vape on. No biggie.
Of course I bought my pv in-store so was given intructions from unwrapping - getting it fully working etc, so was told and shown how to blow out primer anyway.
Is primer toxic? Anyone know?
Blow out the primer, vape on. No biggie.
Of course I bought my pv in-store so was given intructions from unwrapping - getting it fully working etc, so was told and shown how to blow out primer anyway.
Is primer toxic? Anyone know?
I think all of us would be very interested in exactly what it is, I just doubt we are going to get an answer or be able to trust that answer as being honest. Maybe someone can just put a sticky on the new member forums or something to let them know. Maybe an effort for ALL of us to be suggesting constantly to new folks that they clean their atties before using them, etc... Maybe suppliers can try to lean a little on manufactures to either provide info or offer atomizers without primer. I don't know.
My first experience with my PV, I blew out the primer like everyone said. It tasted a bit nasty for a bit, til the rest burned off. I mainly puffed without inhaling for a bit until the taste went away. Does that mean it wasn't harmful to me? No it doesn't, because we don't know what is in it. Since then I have taken to actually cleaning them before use.
You have a great point Frick, new vapers typically won't go through washing/cleaning atties. A lot of people puff away before even realizing that they may be primer on them. We can certainly tell everyone we see to clean their atties and hope it helps.
It would be great for the manufacturers to include a little note saying, "This atomizer is shipped with priming fluid consisting of: ..." "This is done to ensure your new atomizer is in the best condition possible when it reaches you." "Please clean this fluid out thoroughly before first use."
I doubt we would ever see anything like that. We would all like to think that because these atomizers are intended to be used to inhale things, that they would never use anything harmful as a primer, but we have no way of knowing that. I have no idea what kind of health regulations China would have if any, especially with export to us.
Would be nice to see a US based manufacturer of Atomizers are other parts like that. We tend to attach 1000 warning labels to everything we sell here (for fear of lawsuits). Hell even things that are 1000% common sense, like this PLASTIC BAG is not a toy for kids....REALLY? They need to say that?. Yes, yes they do.
My first experience with my PV, I blew out the primer like everyone said. It tasted a bit nasty for a bit, til the rest burned off. I mainly puffed without inhaling for a bit until the taste went away. Does that mean it wasn't harmful to me? No it doesn't, because we don't know what is in it. Since then I have taken to actually cleaning them before use.
You have a great point Frick, new vapers typically won't go through washing/cleaning atties. A lot of people puff away before even realizing that they may be primer on them. We can certainly tell everyone we see to clean their atties and hope it helps.
It would be great for the manufacturers to include a little note saying, "This atomizer is shipped with priming fluid consisting of: ..." "This is done to ensure your new atomizer is in the best condition possible when it reaches you." "Please clean this fluid out thoroughly before first use."
I doubt we would ever see anything like that. We would all like to think that because these atomizers are intended to be used to inhale things, that they would never use anything harmful as a primer, but we have no way of knowing that. I have no idea what kind of health regulations China would have if any, especially with export to us.
Would be nice to see a US based manufacturer of Atomizers are other parts like that. We tend to attach 1000 warning labels to everything we sell here (for fear of lawsuits). Hell even things that are 1000% common sense, like this PLASTIC BAG is not a toy for kids....REALLY? They need to say that?. Yes, yes they do.
You know, I don't think i knew to clean them and i can't remember if i instinctual blew them out or not, but i don't recall the regular atomizer in my starter kit tasting nasty. I have another atomizer still sealed in the original bag I'll have to check it out sometime.
From experience.. I would make an educated guess that it is true that most atties that come form the most common manufacturers i.e. Joyetech,Boge,SLB..to name a few use PG as primer... Mostly unflavored, but I remember a few in the past used pineapple flavored (hmm not very tasty).
I haven't came to my conclusion from chemical testing, nor just by word of mouth.... but I have vaped the heavily primed ones with out adding juice, which vaped as expected (just with an atty taste though).
Same experience after thorough cleanings and vaping with pure no nic PG...
I personally enjoy on the occasion vaping no-flavored juice, but it's either a PG/VG mix or 100%VG.. and with low nic... it's a different taste, and I personally don't mind it ( I usually use "seasoned" atties for this though.
I could be wrong.. but the concern should be limited with the common atties since it really is only present temporarily... after minimal use.
NOW those CE2's are a different story.. I have no clue at what it is in some of them, and I say some because it seems that the only consistency with the CE2's is the inconsistency
... yet there are still lover's of these (if you are happy why knock it, I guess)
well anyway that's my 2cents.
LGD
I haven't came to my conclusion from chemical testing, nor just by word of mouth.... but I have vaped the heavily primed ones with out adding juice, which vaped as expected (just with an atty taste though).
Same experience after thorough cleanings and vaping with pure no nic PG...
I personally enjoy on the occasion vaping no-flavored juice, but it's either a PG/VG mix or 100%VG.. and with low nic... it's a different taste, and I personally don't mind it ( I usually use "seasoned" atties for this though.
I could be wrong.. but the concern should be limited with the common atties since it really is only present temporarily... after minimal use.
NOW those CE2's are a different story.. I have no clue at what it is in some of them, and I say some because it seems that the only consistency with the CE2's is the inconsistency
... yet there are still lover's of these (if you are happy why knock it, I guess)well anyway that's my 2cents.
LGD
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