Why are Governments trying to BAN e-cigs when they are actually helping people!?

[GeorgeIIII]

I certainly agree with this. We all should consider ourselves ambassadors to the world. I may choose to vape differently than you, Zoid, and that is fine. I may press the issue in some gray areas, and you choose not to. We each have a method that suits our location, mannerisms, personality, etc. My way is no better than yours.

Are there risks to "pressing the issue"? You bet. Are there rewards? I think there are.

I have converted quite a few smokers to vaping. My choice to vape in gray areas has started many a conversation. I usually carry a couple of twists with evods on them to give away, and get someone started on their vaping journey. Vaping has changed my life, and made it better. I am healthier and happier. I owe it to smokers everywhere to expose them to this Tobacco Harm Reduction technique. I don't think I am too good to vape in smoking areas, because it is a great place to meet potential converts. But I also like to vape in non-smoking areas to show (and enjoy) the fruits of vaping. I have been asked to stop perhaps a half-dozen times in areas. When I am asked, I generally comply immediately. The notable exception was in an outdoor courtyard at a local mall....but that is a long story not for this post.

Now the way I see it, our best weapon as vapers is numbers. The more of us there are vaping, the more difficult it is to lay down unreasonable regulations, and the louder a voice of opposition we will have during the public comment period when the deeming regulations are announced.

The ANTZ exist, and they are coming to stop our habit. Pretending they are not real, or that people that talk about them are conspiracy theorists, or that they just want reasonable regulation won't make them go away. I believe in my heart that there is no appeasing this sort. We will either defeat them or be defeated. You can disagree with me on this, and I could well be wrong. But look at the smoking bans, how they progressed, and what smokers going along with the bans did for them. I don't "know" the right way to proceed, but I know quiet acquiescence is not a winning play. It got smokers pigeon-holed into where they are today. Is there a danger from coming off like militant, crazed fanatics? Yeah, but I believe coming across as docile is just as dangerous.

Zoid, I am not implying that you (or any other poster) has been docile, I am only sharing my philosophy of this matter.

Agree with you on most of your points Edd. Actually, I've only vaped for a couple of months now, after smoking heavily for most of my life. It was the so-called "responsible adults" that got me started on the path to misery in the first place. For the most part, I've been content to avoid starting arguments and avoiding conflict.

But...

Since I've started vaping, and come to enjoy the benefits of it (versus smoking anyway), I'm starting to become... I don't know... disillusioned. I was really PO'd about the ObamaCare thing. I couldn't afford health insurance before Mr. First Black President In History came along. I sure as hell can't afford it now. Plus, who would want the government's plan anyway? It's way too complex for us laymen to understand. And I really hate they way it was forced to pass before anyone was allowed to read it. That seems a bit... unscrupulous to me.

Anyway, didn't want to get off topic here. Just trying to illuminate a point. That is, that something has been bothering since I started vaping. I finally have found a way to get off the sickness-inducing cigarettes after 25 years. Vaping has worked for me. I do it in my apartment, and sometimes on the school bus, when the kids aren't around. It doesn't stink up my bus like cigs did, and even if the kids smell it, they generally seem to like it.

I don't vape too much in public places. I treat it just like I did smoking. A notable exception is Walmart. I HATE that place, and on the occasions that I am forced to go there, I just don't feel like walking all the way outside to have a vape break like I did with cigs. So, I'll do a couple of quick puffs here and there to get my fix until we can leave that infernal place. Heck, this actually led to me converting a smoker, if you want the God's honest on that one.

I don't think we're going to end up any better than the smokers did. There is just too much collective might against us right now. Too much money. But, I do agree with standing up and being counted. At the very least, the tobacco companies will truly have a reason to be scared, once they realize how many of us are actually ditching their products and taking our money elsewhere.

 

[LDS714]

A notable exception is Walmart. I HATE that place, and on the occasions that I am forced to go there, I just don't feel like walking all the way outside to have a vape break like I did with cigs. So, I'll do a couple of quick puffs here and there to get my fix until we can leave that infernal place. Heck, this actually led to me converting a smoker, if you want the God's honest on that one.

When in Wal-Mart, I make it a point to check out on the register that sells the Fins and Blus. I'll point to them and ask, "So you can use those electronic types anywhere? Even in Wal-Mart?" The answer has always been yes...

 

[zoiDman]

...

Are there risks to "pressing the issue"? You bet. Are there rewards? I think there are.

...

I never said that there were not both Benefits and Risks to doing Any Action.

What I have tried to say is that, IMO, the Risks of Certain type of Vaping Activities Far Outweigh the Benefits.

It would be Great If I went someplace and Used me e-Cigarette and Educated a Current Smoker to the Benefits of Vaping. Yeah For Me!

But if in doing so, I Outraged 9 Other People how much did I Really Accomplish?

It's kinda a Numbers Game.

Perhaps what gets Lost and or Forgotten because we Interact on a e-Cigarette forum where Everyone vapes is that Vapers are a Very Small Slice of the General Population.

And that Policies about things like e-Cigarette use should somehow be Based Solely on Scientific/Health Merits. The Simple Reality is that the Aren't.

We just don't live in a Country where you can Blow Something out of your Mouth, that Other People can see, and not have a Segment of the Population get Bent.

 

[wv2win]

BTW - If you have read wv2win's posts as long as I have you will see a Distinct Pattern to them.

And that is He will Imply that your Position is the Same as the ANTZ. Hence, Guilt by Association.



It is somewhat Comical because it is So Predictable.

There you go again, zoilDman, demonstrating limited reading comprehension skills. I'm not "implying" that your agreement that vapers should "only vape in restricted smoking areas" is the same as the ANTZ, I'm stating it IS the same as the ANTZ. Instead of your normal "misdirection" posts, why don't you just man-up and "own" it for what it is. You have a right to agree with the ANTZ's on this point, regardless of how fraudulent that position is. No one called you an ANTZ for agreeing with them. But acting as if you don't agree with them on this issue is slightly disingenuous.

 

[zoiDman]

There you go again, zoilDman, demonstrating limited reading comprehension skills. I'm not "implying" that your agreement that vapers should "only vape in restricted smoking areas" is the same as the ANTZ, I'm stating it IS the same as the ANTZ. Instead of your normal "misdirection" posts, why don't you just man-up and "own" it for what it is. You have a right to agree with the ANTZ's on this point, regardless of how fraudulent that position is. No one called you an ANTZ for agreeing with them. But acting as if you don't agree with them on this issue is slightly disingenuous.

Me and My Shadow.

LOL

 

[generic mutant]

We need to make wv2win bingo cards, hand them out to new posters.

Once you've been called disingenuous, an ANTZ, and a utiliser of bogus scare tactics you win a commemorative mug, or something...

I'd have a full dinner set

 

[diggyb]

ANTZ is not an organization with a mission statement, right? Or is it?

He agrees with PEOPLE who have the same opinion as him. Lumping everything you don't agree with in with ANTZ is a bit disingenuous, don't you think? ..or am I giving too much credit?

 

[zoiDman]

We need to make wv2win bingo cards, hand them out to new posters.

Once you've been called disingenuous, an ANTZ, and a utiliser of bogus scare tactics you win a commemorative mug, or something...

I'd have a full dinner set

You Laugh Now... But wait until you have been around here for 2 or 3 Years and have someone who Follows you around like a Piece of Gum stuck to the bottom of your Shoe.

We'll see who is Laughing then?

 

[Tinkiegrrl]

So... Either you blow huge clouds everywhere, or you're a member of the ANTZ? There's no grey area? There's no place for someone who is just non confrontational, or for someone who just doesn't think it's the polite thing to do? Thinking it's impolite, or thinking that it's just asking for confrontation doesn't equal wanting it restricted to smoking areas only. As with everything else in life, this isn't so black and white. As much as it's a myth that militant vapers have single handedly caused bans, it's also a myth that those who think vaping everywhere is impolite is on the side of the ANTZ. I emailed my representatives. I called. I went to the council meeting. I fought for the right to vape anywhere, but that doesn't mean I think it's the polite, or the right thing to do everywhere. Where would you put someone like me?

 

[Jay-dub]

There are a lot of followers around here. They tend to line up behind the petty and mean spirited and cloak their penis envy in pseudo-intellectual banter.

 

[zoiDman]

ANTZ is not an organization with a mission statement, right? Or is it?

He agrees with PEOPLE who have the same opinion as him. Lumping everything you don't agree with in with ANTZ is a bit disingenuous, don't you think? ..or am I giving too much credit?

The Slang term "ANTZ" has many meanings here on the ECF.

Mainly it is used to Describe a Person or Group of People who are Against Nicotine Use in Any Form. But it is also used as Derogatory Insult by some to against those that they Don't Like.

It really depends on the Context.

 

[Jay-dub]

You Laugh Now... But wait until you have been around here for 2 or 3 Years and have someone who Follows you around like a Piece of Gum stuck to the bottom of your Shoe.

We'll see who is Laughing then?

He's done that to you too! LOL! I'm jealous now. I thought we had something special wv2win!

 

[generic mutant]

So... Either you blow huge clouds everywhere, or you're a member of the ANTZ? There's no grey area? There's no place for someone who is just non confrontational, or for someone who just doesn't think it's the polite thing to do? Thinking it's impolite, or thinking that it's just asking for confrontation doesn't equal wanting it restricted to smoking areas only. As with everything else in life, this isn't so black and white. As much as it's a myth that militant vapers have single handedly caused bans, it's also a myth that those who think vaping everywhere is impolite is on the side of the ANTZ. I emailed my representatives. I called. I went to the council meeting. I fought for the right to vape anywhere, but that doesn't mean I think it's the polite, or the right thing to do everywhere. Where would you put someone like me?

You gonna have a guess?

We could play hangman!

_ _ _ _

 

[LDS714]

Well, this thread is developing into something very useful.

Oh, wait...

 

[evan le'garde]

The way big pharma and tobacco companies persuade polititions is to wine and dine them. They just arrange big dinner parties for them to go to. The way lobbyists try to persuade polititions not to ban nicotine solutions is to consistently bore them to death with facts and figures for months, years even.

Personally i'd rather be at a dinner party !. How about you ?.

 

[stevegmu]

The Slang term "ANTZ" has many meanings here on the ECF.

Mainly it is used to Describe a Person or Group of People who are Against Nicotine Use in Any Form. But it is also used as Derogatory Insult by some to against those that they Don't Like.

It really depends on the Context.

I always thought it was used by those suffering from paranoid delusions concerning men in black who would take away their mod...

 

[zoiDman]

I always thought it was used by those suffering from paranoid delusions concerning men in black who would take away their mod...

It could be.

But after seeing this Blinding Flash of Light I Can't Remember?

 

[tj99959]

I certainly agree with this. We all should consider ourselves ambassadors to the world. I may choose to vape differently than you, Zoid, and that is fine. I may press the issue in some gray areas, and you choose not to. We each have a method that suits our location, mannerisms, personality, etc. My way is no better than yours.

Are there risks to "pressing the issue"? You bet. Are there rewards? I think there are.

I have converted quite a few smokers to vaping. My choice to vape in gray areas has started many a conversation. I usually carry a couple of twists with evods on them to give away, and get someone started on their vaping journey. Vaping has changed my life, and made it better. I am healthier and happier. I owe it to smokers everywhere to expose them to this Tobacco Harm Reduction technique. I don't think I am too good to vape in smoking areas, because it is a great place to meet potential converts. But I also like to vape in non-smoking areas to show (and enjoy) the fruits of vaping. I have been asked to stop perhaps a half-dozen times in areas. When I am asked, I generally comply immediately. The notable exception was in an outdoor courtyard at a local mall....but that is a long story not for this post.

Now the way I see it, our best weapon as vapers is numbers. The more of us there are vaping, the more difficult it is to lay down unreasonable regulations, and the louder a voice of opposition we will have during the public comment period when the deeming regulations are announced.

The ANTZ exist, and they are coming to stop our habit. Pretending they are not real, or that people that talk about them are conspiracy theorists, or that they just want reasonable regulation won't make them go away. I believe in my heart that there is no appeasing this sort. We will either defeat them or be defeated. You can disagree with me on this, and I could well be wrong. But look at the smoking bans, how they progressed, and what smokers going along with the bans did for them. I don't "know" the right way to proceed, but I know quiet acquiescence is not a winning play. It got smokers pigeon-holed into where they are today. Is there a danger from coming off like militant, crazed fanatics? Yeah, but I believe coming across as docile is just as dangerous.

Zoid, I am not implying that you (or any other poster) has been docile, I am only sharing my philosophy of this matter.

The real "gray aria" is understanding which gray arias to push the issue, and which gray arias not to.
In other words, we need to be careful with who we piss off.

As an example, we are finding it benificial to work with the health department here instead of just puttin up a huge HELL-NO fight. The result wll be that we wll end up with a law that requires proper standards for liquids instead of an all-out ban on liquids.

 

[stevegmu]

You Laugh Now... But wait until you have been around here for 2 or 3 Years and have someone who Follows you around like a Piece of Gum stuck to the bottom of your Shoe.

We'll see who is Laughing then?

I think he's a member of NUTZ...

 

[navigator2011]

So... Either you blow huge clouds everywhere, or you're a member of the ANTZ? There's no grey area? There's no place for someone who is just non confrontational, or for someone who just doesn't think it's the polite thing to do? Thinking it's impolite, or thinking that it's just asking for confrontation doesn't equal wanting it restricted to smoking areas only. As with everything else in life, this isn't so black and white. As much as it's a myth that militant vapers have single handedly caused bans, it's also a myth that those who think vaping everywhere is impolite is on the side of the ANTZ. I emailed my representatives. I called. I went to the council meeting. I fought for the right to vape anywhere, but that doesn't mean I think it's the polite, or the right thing to do everywhere. Where would you put someone like me?

Well, I guess I fall into the non-confrontational group. I have what I believe is a reasonable expectation of being free to smoke and vape pretty much anywhere outdoors, while I have no expectation of being able to indoors. That's fine with me, I can vape outdoors, but I better be left alone. I don't have to vape with smokers, either, because there's a lot of open space outdoors. I can just stand or walk in a non-smoking area outdoors, it's really not all that difficult. As for vaping indoors, I think it should be properly left up to property owners. We need to avoid state-wide bans that specifically name vaping as outdoors only.

As for being able to vape anywhere we want indoors? The way we are headed, that'll probably never happen. Just the way it is, and we have to work around that probable reality. But if the issue is left up to property owners, then I can imagine we'll be able to vape indoors some places. Vaping could even be welcomed in many cases, depending on how we navigate to that point in the future. For instance, some places could even encourage vaping as a way to keep the business of smokers that would otherwise be lost, or avoid having fifty smokers standing outside at, say, a bar or a club. So, I can see how encouraging vaping could really boost some businesses in the future, so long as there are no idiotic state-wide bans in place. But being a militant vaper isn't gong to help. Just like how we don't want to be bullied, neither does anyone else. The harder we push, the harder they will push back, and that'll kind of suck in the long run. So, we might have to vape outdoors for while, as the smoker do, but maybe not forever if play our cards right and give society time to catch up. Sure, some people are actually proper ANTZ that will never give an inch, but if they become a small minority of the general populace, then it won't matter much what they think. For example, there are still people around that think alcohol is the devil's drink, but who today ever listens them anyways. I think the same thing could happen with vaping, if given the time and patience.

About the only thing I can think of that would cause a serious polarity shift in favor of vaping everywhere indoors is if it is discovered that vaping kills flu virus in the lungs and sinuses. Just imagine if avian influenza becomes an airborne killer pandemic and vaping is found to be competitive with the flu-shot, and twice as effective with the flu-shot? There would probably be a run on every vape-shop in the world. Then, even the ANTZ will be grappling to get high-pg 0mg nicotine juice. If that were to happen, everyone would breathe a sigh of relief when they seem big clouds. Is this fantasy? Maybe, but I have noticed a distinct improvement in the number of colds, coughs, and sinus issues I've had this year while vaping, compared to previous years, and I still smoke analogs and I'm around quite sickly full-time smokers at work all the time.

OK, so does my moderate, patient stance make me a member of the ANTZ group? If so, that's a bit strange as I can consume enough nicotine to kill large creatures and never even get so much as a headache.