Why can't they just leave us alone?

[Robino1]

I'm not trying to say "everyone here believes a load of rubbish". I'm here, that would be a dumb thing to say

I'm saying that as well as some very well thought out posts here, there is a fair bit of knee-jerk, emotive crud masquerading as knowledge.

You'd expect that in any new 'hobby'. Make it addictive, and potentially life-saving, and potentially harmful, and add in all kinds of questions over regulation and politics. Pour into the intertubes, and stir...

I get what you're saying. Before even getting a kit to start, I did sooo much reading and research on this new thing. In all honesty, I thought it would be safer for those around me than for me personally. So I jumped in, not even thinking that it would actually work for me to get me off of cigs. And the more I read links, both for and against, the more the ANTZ propoganda pisses me off.

I am not a fighter by nature, but in this? OMG I do have a passion and a newfound fighter in me. I have found that I am willing to get pulled over (not happened yet) if it means that I will be able to educate the police. Just today, hubby was driving and I'm in the passenger seat. We are at a red light and an officer in his car is right next to us.... on my side.... I say to hubby "wonder if he knows what this is?" Hubby says "I don't know" I said "We may find out shortly, he looked at me while I was vaping". Hubby said "like I said, we'll find out" I then mentioned the fact that the officer was texting while at the light.

We were so close, I could almost read his text. But the point is, normally I am non-confrontational, I abide by the rules and the laws, I don't make waves. But in this? I will fight for this as I truly believe, with my whole being, this is the ONLY thing that has gotten me and keeping me off of cigs. And if we had gotten pulled over and questioned? I would have been very ok with spending some time to educate. I think what surprised me the most was the fact that hubby was ok with it. Oh, he has never smoked in his life but has seen me go through a lot with trying to quit. He has done research on this too and was the one to mention the ecig to me.

 

[Aceman12]

Smokers are Jokers. - YouTube

 

[AngelsBreath]

I am getting more out of this thread I started than all that I have read since I began this journey.

 

[steved5600]

Everyone has a vice but for some reason smokers are frowned upon for theirs. We never harass people for having to much coffee, energy drinks, liquor, candy etc... It's the same thing. Unfortunately it's easier for some to judge others rather than take a good look at themselves! What's that saying...'Ignorance is bliss'.

People love numbers. So here are some about Alcohol. The population of the US is around 300,000,000. They estimate that that 10% are alcoholics. That is 30,000,000. Of them 90% will die before getting treatment. Of the ones that get treatment only about 2-7 % succeed. That is over a 90% mortality rate. In ER's around the use 60 % of all trama cases involve alcohol in some way. Do we see and effort to ban Alcohol? Because they have decided it's impossible but Nicotine is an easy target. It is also estimated that 14-17% of Americans abuse alcohol but are not necessarily Alcoholics YET.

 

[EddardinWinter]

I'm saying that as well as some very well thought out posts here, there is a fair bit of knee-jerk, emotive crud masquerading as knowledge.

I could make this observation about your posts on this thread (and perhaps my own).

You'd expect that in any new 'hobby'. Make it addictive, and potentially life-saving, and potentially harmful, and add in all kinds of questions over regulation and politics. Pour into the intertubes, and stir...

If you believe the consensus of evidence so far, smoking is far more dangerous than vaping. I believe you have conceded this point. So it is much more than "potentially life-saving". Every smoker who starts vaping today improves their health markedly. The only limit to how many lives it saves right now is the amount of good information vs. misinformation smokers get. Again, the misconceptions of the dangers of nicotine are killing smokers. Your blunt demands of proof from Kristen have been met with kindness and source after source of information which at least demonstrates that nicotine is safer than it has been portrayed.

Nicotine is an important drug to my brain function and I use it for the benefits it gives me, conceding that the risks are not entirely defined but appear to be minimal based on the body of scientific knowledge on the subject. But still it is called "poison" by many! I am told regularly, "well you quit smoking, but you are still using nicotine so its just as bad". This is a sad state of affairs, when so many are so grossly misinformed about the true risks of a substance. Kristin's (and CASAA's) tireless efforts to correct that wrong are a great service.

 

[clnire]

I read somewhere, sorry I don't have the link to the article, that nicotine is everywhere. No one would test completely clear of nicotine because it is in food we eat (those nice green leafy vegetables?) and lots of other things. It is a naturally occurring "element?". I also have a friend who has serious blood pressure problems. When he does not smoke his blood pressure skyrockets, so he has a smoke and it comes down. I told him it is the nicotine, not the cigs and am trying my best to help him get a setup to vape. Have read several articles about nicotine helping various medical conditions (again, sorry no links...). NOT the same, but kinda like the fact that medical ......... helps glaucoma sufferers.

You watch obese people stuffing their faces at buffets, read about drunk drivers killing innocent people (and themselves), drug addicts robbing and pilfering, on and on. OK, I admit I am addicted to the act of smoking. I vape practically 0 nicotine juice most of the time (3 mg or less) so it is not so much the nicotine. I just enjoy the act of "smoking". I feel sooooo much better then when I used those expensive, nasty, smelly, dirty, destructive things, I will enjoy my "vice".

My motto: Everything in moderation.

 

[LaraPaw]

Guess what? We are all alike. We are going to die. It's the one statistic that is 100% certain.

Do people really think if they don't do "bad things" they will avoid this? I am going to die and I feel fine about it. What I don't feel fine with is living and feeling like crap which is why I choose vaping over smoking. Life in a sterile bubble will still end. Your reward for that is a longer life maybe.. in a damn bubble. I'll be damned if I try to get through life without enjoying things no matter what anyone says. If vaping ever causes me to enjoy my life less for any reason, I will stop. But living my life obsessed with mitigating and extinguishing every single risk... *sigh* it exhausts me to think about. Life without happiness and access to things that enhances my happiness scares me a lot more than a longer life where all I do is focus on how to make it even longer. Maybe it's jealousy & fear that is trying to drive this control other people think they need to have over other people's lives. I don't know, but I really feel bad for anyone not being able to enjoy their lives and feeling like controlling others gives them some kind of meaning.

I must say seeing the thoughts of people in the vaping community gives me a lot more hope that there are still a lot of people who are interested in finding ways to pursue something that ultimately makes living their lives better.

 

[AngelsBreath]

Well said larapaw!!

 

[Whosback]

LaraPaw but if I chew tree bark and avoid even a single moment of enjoyment it's certain I will live to be 120. Then on my 120th birthday I will smile and the indulgence will kill me.

 

[MonkInsane]

Quoted wrong post - oops - sorry Kristen

 

[MonkInsane]

Quote Originally Posted by generic mutant View Post
I'm not trying to say "everyone here believes a load of rubbish". I'm here, that would be a dumb thing to say

I'm saying that as well as some very well thought out posts here, there is a fair bit of knee-jerk, emotive crud masquerading as knowledge.

You'd expect that in any new 'hobby'. Make it addictive, and potentially life-saving, and potentially harmful, and add in all kinds of questions over regulation and politics. Pour into the intertubes, and stir...

What you also need to understand is that people's way of communicating differ. Some can argue a point without any emotional envolvement, making their point without getting emotional about the topic. Others (Like me ) get emotional about the topic and it ends up sounding like some emotional arguement based solely on emotion and personal beliefs(wishfull thinking).

That is not always the case, as with me - I did days and days of research on the safety of electronic cigarettes, reading whatever research papers and other material I can get my hands on. I don't always convey that very well when debating a point due to the fact that I'm an emotional person, and those pesky emotions tend to get in the way of making my point clearly.

Just be a bit more mindfull of this before accusing people of "wishfull thinking", If I didn't know where you're coming from with this - I might have taken offense.

 

[DC2]

Watch this...
.... Out | Commentary (South Park) - YouTube

I really don't know what else to say.

 

[generic mutant]

double post

 

[generic mutant]

What you also need to understand is that people's way of communicating differ. Some can argue a point without any emotional envolvement, making their point without getting emotional about the topic. Others (Like me ) get emotional about the topic and it ends up sounding like some emotional arguement based solely on emotion and personal beliefs(wishfull thinking).

That is not always the case, as with me - I did days and days of research on the safety of electronic cigarettes, reading whatever research papers and other material I can get my hands on. I don't always convey that very well when debating a point due to the fact that I'm an emotional person, and those pesky emotions tend to get in the way of making my point clearly.

Just be a bit more mindfull of this before accusing people of "wishfull thinking", If I didn't know where you're coming from with this - I might have taken offense.

Well, this thread did get heated. Though I have to say I don't think I'm the one responsible, if you reread the thread.

But it is still wishful thinking. It's a natural, human trait, and everyone does it. It is in part why we developed scientific method - to independently verify the same results from an unbiased perspective.

"Nicotine isn't the harmful part of smoking" is one of the sacred cows of the harm reduction movement, and all the evidence points to it being true. But you say something that appears to contradict that, and some people will get extremely - irrationally - defensive, without bothering to stop and see what you're saying, or why you might be saying it.

Nevertheless, it's an important thing for us to have right - both for our own safety, and politically for us to be able to mount a sound defense. I *do not know* if it is true that nicotine should be reasonably regarded as a 'suspected carcinogen', but it's important that we can debate that, with the minimum of emotional involvement.

 

[MonkInsane]

But it is still wishful thinking. It's a natural, human trait, and everyone does it. It is in part why we developed scientific method - to independently verify the same results from an unbiased perspective.

"Nicotine isn't the harmful part of smoking" is one of the sacred cows of the harm reduction movement, and all the evidence points to it being true. But you say something that appears to contradict that, and some people will get extremely - irrationally - defensive, without bothering to stop and see what you're saying, or why you might be saying it.

Nevertheless, it's an important thing for us to have right - both for our own safety, and politically for us to be able to mount a sound defense. I *do not know* if it is true that nicotine should be reasonably regarded as a 'suspected carcinogen', but it's important that we can debate that, with the minimum of emotional involvement.

People tend to get emotional about subjects they've vested a lot of personal interest in, and I think especially us ex-smokers, who were villified for smoking and now that we've switched to vaping - are being villified for that. I think it is a bit of a touchy subject, especially with all the irrational fear-mongering regarding E-Cigs that the media loves to sensationalize.

We tend to jump to defend our newfound freedom from cigarettes (and rightly so), because we've invested in it - both financially and emotionally. We do this because we are human, it is in our nature. In the end, emotions will get in the way because we are emotional creatures .

 

[Whosback]

Well, this thread did get heated. Though I have to say I don't think I'm the one responsible, if you reread the thread.

But it is still wishful thinking. It's a natural, human trait, and everyone does it. It is in part why we developed scientific method - to independently verify the same results from an unbiased perspective.

"Nicotine isn't the harmful part of smoking" is one of the sacred cows of the harm reduction movement, and all the evidence points to it being true. But you say something that appears to contradict that, and some people will get extremely - irrationally - defensive, without bothering to stop and see what you're saying, or why you might be saying it.

While I can see what you're saying. One of the things that gets people's dander up is that people are working to get laws past that will make vaping much different for all of us and much harder to help new vapers get started. Given the comparison in risk to health between smoking and vaping this is something that can effect the health and well being of millions.

Every time one of these laws, or banns is proposed you hear the same half truths and lies being spread and these are what some important people are trying to use to get these laws passed.

We hear "we don't know what's in an e-cig", CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association will give you several studies that contradict this.

"E-cigs might be as dangerous as regular cigs" using the handful of possible carcinogens that are found in some e-cigs without naming any or admitting that these are only found in trace levels. If they do name them they ignore that they are found in greater levels in many "safe" items not just to do with smoking. That's like saying if you speed, and drive drunk while texting you run the same risk of a car accident as people who drive safely because safe drivers have accidents too, but laws are getting passed with this logic.

"E-cigs are targeting kids", ignoring the fact that almost every vender out there has an 18+ policy. They use the flavors and style of e-cigs saying the might appeal to kids ignoring the fact that its impossible to create something that will appeal to adults without it appealing to at least some kids. Do they bother to even survey vapers or ask them what roll the favors play for us, or why not having to feel ashamed about what we are doing helps keep us vaping?

Laws and bans are getting created with no science to support them. People who may have vaped instead of continuing to smoke are potentially being driven away by false claims and inaccurate new articles that fill the papers every day. These things happen when scientific evidence out there that contradicts the reasons behind them or there is only the thinnest vale of supporting evidence.

Every time the evidence is presented and the scientific studies are brought forth to contradict these people, or at least show that its too early to set in stone the rules and regulations on vaping, these people treat it like its not even there. They dismiss it and keep driving to make vaping appear to the public as bad as smoking.

So when someone questions the science or claims the people who study and work hard everyday to get the truth out there and try and get people informed are not looking into the studies enough, or even vaguely implies it. You touch a nerve that's getting rubbed raw everyday by people who are either fools, or so corrupt that its almost inconceivable.

I'm not saying this was your intention, but this is a vapers forum with a lot of CASAA members and people who's lives have improved as a result. Consider that.

 

[generic mutant]

double post

 

[generic mutant]

I'm a vaper too you know...

I challenged Kristin to provide evidence for her statement. I didn't accuse her of anything. I think she took that the way it was intended. We're all wrong sometimes, that's how you learn stuff. In this case it might be me, it might be her, I honestly don't know. Would be nice to hear an expert opinion, but even then I suspect different experts would disagree.

All I'm saying is if we're on the side of the truth, we have little to fear.

By all means you should fight those who lie about or oppress you... that isn't reason to assume though, that anything that disagrees with your preconceptions calls for a fight.

 

[MonkInsane]

Problem is there are so many opposing expert opinions out there it is hard to know which are genuine and which are pushing an agenda (Sometimes it is dead obvious, and other times not so much.)

Fact remains that no one has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that nicotine is a carcinogen or that it causes or aggrivates cancer.

 

[MonkInsane]

Double post.