Why can't they just leave us alone?

[generic mutant]

I was talking about pubs, clubs, restaurants, and workplaces, which is largely where it applies in Europe.

There are a few dumb bits here in the UK - e.g. train stations without roofs or enclosed walls are considered 'the insides of buildings' for the purposes of the smoking law, apparently. But it mostly seems to be a rational policy with implementation quirks, rather than a crusade.

I don't know much about the state of things over the pond...

 

[kristin]

In Calabasas, CA they have banned smoking in parks, yet grilling is OK. This is happening everywhere now. Scientifically, inhaling grill smoke is no more healthy than inhaling tobacco smoke. The point is, they are using science that "proves" one thing to pass laws against something altogether different. If they can ban smoking in pubs (especially ones filled with people already smoking, so SHS means nothing to them) because women who lived with heavy smokers have a 20% to 30% increase in risk (be sure to read that right - not increased incidence - just increased RISK), then they can start passing bans in the most ridiculous places and including vaping. Letting them get away with one form of junk science only gives them the credibility to use more junk science and pass laws that are even more ridiculous. If they are passing the laws just because the smoke annoys and irritates them, then they need to just say that. But buying into junk science to support these laws creates a very slippery slope.

Consider "third-hand smoke." The implications of that are truly horrifying if people start to believe it. It won't matter where smokers smoke, because they will be banned from places just for the "deadly" third-hand smoke on their clothes. People are already so scared by this myth that they refuse to let their kids see smoking grandparents and people aren't being hired for certain jobs. Think that won't affect us? Well, they are already trying to tie us to "third hand vapor."

All I'm saying is that we need to look into things for ourselves and not believe things just because the media says so or the ANTZ say so or it because it just "feels true." Those beliefs can come back and bite us in the .....

 

[generic mutant]

The pubs argument is difficult...

But my reasoning, personally, is that if a society has full employment, it's fine for people to smoke in a pub where there are no children.

If there is less than full employment, you have a problem, because you're effectively assuming that people who work there are 'voluntarily' there, when they might be forced to be there through economic circumstances.

Third-hand smoke - yes, that does sound like insanity (not that I've looked at the figures...). It might well be a measurable risk, so I wouldn't intrinsically call it 'junk science'. It might hopefully lead to technical improvements in ways of cleaning things, or the composition of cigarettes, or something. But you should probably ban the internal combustion engine before you worry about the health risks of smelling of ciggies ...

 

[DC2]

I personally support the smoking bans, on the strength of evidence I've seen that smoke harms other people.

Do you support smoking bans in public parks? Beaches? Entire college campuses?

 

[generic mutant]

I think I answered that (at least by implication) above, but for the record, no.

My reasoning is basically: if it's an enclosed space where there are children below a certain age, or adults who aren't there voluntarily, then you should not be allowed to smoke.

 

[d3mon]

It’s not just vaping, but ANY change you make that make others question their own choices. I use to be VERY over weight, 304 lbs, and of course people would get on my back about how big I was. Eventually…I decided to do something about it…so I started low carb dieting. People got on my back about THAT. Saying it doesn’t work and it’s unhealthy. I started working out…doing p90x. People told me working out at home doesn’t work. It’s a scam.

130 lbs down later ….…now it’s “you’re too skinny!”


You can’t win with people.

 

[d3mon]

and...cuz someone will surely ask....

and cuz i'm still proud of what i have done (and still AM)...

/threadjack lol

 

[Robino1]

D3, you should be very proud of what you have accomplished. Congrats on creating a healthy you!
Too skinny? Nope.
Compared to your old self? I can see where those that were used to seeing the old you would think that. That is a major change.

 

[gthompson]

Robin, wipe your chin, you're drooling.

 

[Robino1]

Chump chimp
I may be married but I ain't dead. I can look allllll I want.

 

[gthompson]

I always say, it doesn't matter where you get your appetite as long as you eat at home.

 

[Robino1]

I always say, it doesn't matter where you get your appetite as long as you eat at home.

That's all I'm sayin'
Mr. Robin can look all he wants too....he comes home to me.

Thread derailed enough methinks.

 

[Whosback]

Chump chimp
I may be married but I ain't dead. I can look allllll I want.

It's true what they say "all the good ones are taken" lol.

Seriously though I am liking this thread. It's nice to see some many people understand that just having the facts is not enough. Truth never wins against loud in the court of public opinion.

 

[_more_]

The people i know that have issues with vaping are seeing the vapor as harmful even though i give out cards and explain it is comparable to steam/vapor rising from a cup of hot coffee or soup.

The reason given for their not liking vapor is because it looks like smoke which i cannot deny but i can blow my vapor through a paper towel or kleenex and thereis no stain or odor. Still the haters will hate and it does bother me when people are so close minded...

I like this thread

 

[Iffy]

If there is less than full employment, you have a problem, because you're effectively assuming that people who work there are 'voluntarily' there, when they might be forced to be there through economic circumstances.

What da frak are you talkin' 'bout?!?! If anyone works for pay, they're not volunteering!!! They're earning a living, regardless of what income level they may have. All da more power to 'em!

And your 'logic' has what to do with vaping?

Gotta ask... what is it that you do to $upport your vaping and on-line 'puter acce$$?

 

[synthros]

I so hear ya.
I buy most of my "gear" online, no sales tax usually - I'm in the governments pocket
I stopped buying Marlboro's, every day of my life - I'm in big tobaccos pocket
I didn't/don't need Chantix, nicorette, nicotrol etc to not buy those cigarettes - I'm in big pharma s pocket
I'm enjoying my habit without hurting anyone - I'm at a minimum annoying all those people who are convinced that if you're happy, you must be doing something wrong

They're never gonna "leave me alone"

It's ok , I plan to spend the extra ten years or so that I will probably live longer than I would have to not care in the slightest what the haters think

 

[generic mutant]

What da frak are you talkin' 'bout?!?! If anyone works for pay, they're not volunteering!!! They're earning a living, regardless of what income level they may have. All da more power to 'em!

And your 'logic' has what to do with vaping?

Gotta ask... what is it that you do to $upport your vaping and on-line 'puter acce$$?

The relevant question is: Can you subject someone else to smoke, if it's known to cause significant harm (even if only at the population level)?

A pretty straightforward answer is: If they don't mind you doing that, and know the risks. In other words, if they 'volunteer'.

If people are forced to work somewhere smokey by economic circumstances, they aren't voluntarily working there. You can make a reasonable case that with full employment (for the purposes of argument, let's say that means "everyone who wants a job has one") nobody is forced to work anywhere - anyone could just get another job.

And, yes, the legal / ethical questions about second hand smoke have quite a lot of bearing on vaping. Even if they're only perceived to be similar, it'll act as a model for lawmakers etc.

 

[Iffy]

(for the purposes of argument, let's say that means "everyone who wants a job has one") nobody is forced to work anywhere - anyone could just get another job.

For the sake of reality, anyone (within our Western civilization, aka most ECF posters) can get a job, another job and/or get an education for a new career field (assuming physical/mental capability). The question is whether they take the high road (personal sacrifice) or the low road (blaming others and going nowheres)!

You're assuming that a person "forced to work somewhere smokey by economic circumstances" has no free will nor the willingness to improve his/her situation. I have more confidence in the human spirit than to brand folk as slaves.

Balls & chain (aka slavery) was tossed a while ago in our societies!

Considering that the tread is titled "Why can't they just leave us alone?", I think it best that if we want to further this discussion, we take it elsewhere.

Greetings from the Colonies!

ETA: Ummm, a bit of editing on your part, I see!

 

[Robino1]

Why does this discussion feel like I'm having a debate with an ANTZ? It doesn't feel quite like any point is getting through......not one...

 

[AngelsBreath]

Because some people already have their minds made up and there is no changing them, like the ANTZ. They are stubborn and unwilling to budge an inch.