Why does the medical field know so little about vaping?

[kristin]

Very true, Joann. Look at how many posts in the new member area are people looking for something that "looks, feels and tastes" exactly like their brand of cigarette.

Although, I have to disagree that "most smokers want to quit." I believe most don't WANT to quit as much as they just know that they SHOULD quit. Hence the huge popularity of a new product that lets them "keep smoking" without the same health risks. (And why new vapers are looking for cigarette replicas.)

The idea that "most smokers want to quit" comes from surveys of smokers that never ask smokers, if you could keep smoking without any of the negative aspects of smoking, would you still want to quit. They just ask if people want to quit. Well, I view that question kind of like the dentist asking if you've been brushing and flossing after every meal. It's something we know the "right" answer to and we feel guilty or shamed into fibbing a little bit. I think by not realizing the subtle difference between wanting to do something and knowing that you probably should do something, researchers have missed what truly motivates most smokers and what it would take for them to quit.

I enjoyed a lot of aspects of smoking and I didn't really "want" to quit - I just didn't want to DIE from it. Kind of like how I want to lose weight, but I still really enjoy my favorite foods that I don't want to give up, but I know I probably should.

 

[C Heise]

It's published and available online. It's a study done by the Mayo Clinic.... I can't find it right now. I didn't look that hard though. I'm about to leave the house. They changed around the whole site. I may have it in print in my file. I can look later if I remember after a night of drinking and debauchery.

Ok, I couldn't find the actual Mayo study, at least not using the search or checking documents I assumed it would be in. Mayo actually has multiple sites and I might be looking on the wrong one. I did some cut-n-paste quotes from other sites pertaining to disk health and nicotine. I just wanted to verify this is a known issue with nicotine. Like I said though, these findings have all pertained to smoking so they may be completely irrelevant due to lower nicotine absorption levels or lack of additional chemicals in vaping-

"The risk of developing a bulging disc can be increased by smoking."

"Nicotine reduces the ability of the disc to absorb nutrients and will therefore hasten degeneration."

"If you smoke you might want to reconsider that for at least the time it will take to fully help your body to heal and regenerate your discs."

"Nicotine and other toxins from smoking can keep spinal discs from absorbing all the nutrients they need from the blood, making disc injury more likely."

 

[JoAnnW]

Very true, Joann. Look at how many posts in the new member area are people looking for something that "looks, feels and tastes" exactly like their brand of cigarette.

Although, I have to disagree that "most smokers want to quit." I believe most don't WANT to quit as much as they just know that they SHOULD quit. Hence the huge popularity of a new product that lets them "keep smoking" without the same health risks. (And why new vapers are looking for cigarette replicas.)

The idea that "most smokers want to quit" comes from surveys of smokers that never ask smokers, if you could keep smoking without any of the negative aspects of smoking, would you still want to quit. They just ask if people want to quit. Well, I view that question kind of like the dentist asking if you've been brushing and flossing after every meal. It's something we know the "right" answer to and we feel guilty or shamed into fibbing a little bit. I think by not realizing the subtle difference between wanting to do something and knowing that you probably should do something, researchers have missed what truly motivates most smokers and what it would take for them to quit.

I enjoyed a lot of aspects of smoking and I didn't really "want" to quit - I just didn't want to DIE from it. Kind of like how I want to lose weight, but I still really enjoy my favorite foods that I don't want to give up, but I know I probably should.

What I should have said was most of the smokers that I know want to quit. I smoked for 36 years and really had no intentions of quitting. I enjoyed everything about it except the impact it had on members of my family. Knowing their concern about my health. My grandkids begging me to stop. Some of my friends would smoke outside of their own houses and so for them, started looking at how smoking impacts them. Most people I know don't like the smell of smoke in their homes and cars. You are right that the majority of smokers may not want to quit but a lot of them don't enjoy the impact that smoking has on their lives or seeing the concern of family members who wish they would stop. Just my opinion and

 

[Brotolemaeus]

if its anything, my military PA thinks it is great that I stopped dipping/smoking and switched to vaping.

 

[kristin]

Ok, I couldn't find the actual Mayo study, at least not using the search or checking documents I assumed it would be in. Mayo actually has multiple sites and I might be looking on the wrong one. I did some cut-n-paste quotes from other sites pertaining to disk health and nicotine. I just wanted to verify this is a known issue with nicotine. Like I said though, these findings have all pertained to smoking so they may be completely irrelevant due to lower nicotine absorption levels or lack of additional chemicals in vaping-

"The risk of developing a bulging disc can be increased by smoking."

"Nicotine reduces the ability of the disc to absorb nutrients and will therefore hasten degeneration."

"If you smoke you might want to reconsider that for at least the time it will take to fully help your body to heal and regenerate your discs."

"Nicotine and other toxins from smoking can keep spinal discs from absorbing all the nutrients they need from the blood, making disc injury more likely."

So, after two hours of searching, I found two studies that seem to directly test just nicotine (not smoking) but they were on animals (cow and rabbit.)

The bovine chondrocytic intervertebral disc cell study concluded "Nicotine in tobacco smoke may have a role in pathogenesis of disc degeneration." (Effect of nicotine on spinal disc cell... [Spine (Phila Pa 1976). 2004] - PubMed - NCBI)

A rabbit study concluded "The authors believe that both reduction in the density of vascular buds and narrowing of the vascular lumen result in decreased oxygen tension, leading to decreased synthesis of proteoglycan and collagen, thus facilitating degeneration of the disc." (Mechanism of Intervertebral Disc Degeneration Caused by Nico... : Spine)

Interestingly, a cohort study of Swedish construction workers assessed the relationships of smoking and moist tobacco use with MS and other inflammatory diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, and sarcoidosis [Carlens et al. 2010]. Ever smoking was associated with an increased risk for all diseases studied except sarcoidosis (lower risk) and the relative risk associated with MS was 1.9 (95% CI 1.4–2.6). In contrast, ever use of moist snuff, adjusted for smoking, was not associated with any of the diseases (relative risk for MS 1.0, 95% CI 0.8–1.4). The authors concluded that inhaled non-nicotinic components of cigarette smoke are more important than nicotine itself in the etiology of these diseases. (Medscape: Medscape Access) Swedish snus has a LOT of nicotine, but no smoke.

Most interesting, an article on the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons web site states "Although nicotine may lead to cell death and the use of NRT may contribute to disk degeneration, no evidence in humans supports a negative effect of NRT." (Smoking Threatens Orthopaedic Outcomes) That means there is no evidence that supports a negative effect of nicotine alone.

So, while it seems that there is a fairly strong link between smoking and bulging disc, there is very little evidence supporting the claim that nicotine alone has a significant effect. So, it is definitely NOT a "known issue" with nicotine - just a theory postulated from just two animal studies and NO evidence from human studies.

 

[kristin]

What I should have said was most of the smokers that I know want to quit. I smoked for 36 years and really had no intentions of quitting. I enjoyed everything about it except the impact it had on members of my family. Knowing their concern about my health. My grandkids begging me to stop. Some of my friends would smoke outside of their own houses and so for them, started looking at how smoking impacts them. Most people I know don't like the smell of smoke in their homes and cars. You are right that the majority of smokers may not want to quit but a lot of them don't enjoy the impact that smoking has on their lives or seeing the concern of family members who wish they would stop. Just my opinion and

I think you missed what I was trying to say, because you basically just agreed with my point? I was just trying to point out in general that researchers may have greater success in smoking cessation efforts if they realize that many, if not most, smokers don't want to quit smoking so much as not have the negative effects of smoking (bad smell, health risks to themselves and bystanders, etc.). E-cigarette users would be a great resource for researchers, because we show how smokers smoke for different reasons (just study the things vapers look for in their devices and liquids, such as throat hit, vapor, flavor, nicotine strength) rather than just being addicted and how smokers may take better to a product which allows them to still "smoke" but without the negative aspects of smoking. I think researchers and the medical professionals treat smokers a certain way because they believe "deep down they all hate smoking and want to quit" so they just keep pushing them to keep trying for abstinence and not use something like e-cigarettes. They may re-evaluate how they approach smokers if they understood that a LOT of smokers wouldn't REALLY want to quit if there were no negatives. They'd probably be more supportive and understand better why we switched to vaping instead of trying to quit altogether.

It's just a theory of mine and I used your post as a "jumping off" point. Hopefully I explained my comment better that time.

 

[supertrunker]

My doctor, whilst not endorsing vaping, recognises that it IS much better for me than smoking. I vape in the waiting room there - and i have even done the same when i was in an ER bed and none of the medical staff even batted an eyelid. Across the corridor was a man crying like a child that he'd not had a smoke in 6 hours even though they had applied so many nicotine patches to him that he resembled a quilt!

I think the reason is that i am very open about it and as far as the ER nurse was concerned 'if it's not burning tobacco - go right on!'

The medics do a hard job and can be frustrated at every turn, but i am grateful for the excellent care and open-mindedness those i have met have shown. As more studies are done - and they will be - they may well turn out to be the greatest ally to vaping because at least medical professionals are mostly objective and care only about clinical studies and facts, which is rather more than Philip Morris say!

 

[Gamekeeper]

Doctors learn about most new techniques and drugs through Pharmaceutical sales reps. There has been an issue highlighted in the news that very old drugs are still highly effective but hardly ever administered. These drugs drop out of use and are forgotten because they are so old, all the patents have expired, and Pharma Reps do not earn anything by pushing them.

With all Sales Reps pushing NRT, there is no-one pushing e-cigs except us.

I guess we have to rely on Doctors reading the medical journals. But again, it is Pharma that contribute the articles and studies. So I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[DC2]

E-cigarette users would be a great resource for researchers, because we show how smokers smoke for different reasons (just study the things vapers look for in their devices and liquids, such as throat hit, vapor, flavor, nicotine strength) rather than just being addicted and how smokers may take better to a product which allows them to still "smoke" but without the negative aspects of smoking.

A couple of polls to back up what Kristin is talking about...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/polls/77298-updated-when-vaping-most-important-you.html
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ou-put-down-those-last-couple-cigarettes.html

 

[DC2]

Doctors learn about most new techniques and drugs through Pharmaceutical sales reps. There has been an issue highlighted in the news that very old drugs are still highly effective but hardly ever administered. These drugs drop out of use and are forgotten because they are so old, all the patents have expired, and Pharma Reps do not earn anything by pushing them.

With all Sales Reps pushing NRT, there is no-one pushing e-cigs except us.

I guess we have to rely on Doctors reading the medical journals. But again, it is Pharma that contribute the articles and studies. So I wouldn't hold my breath.

You are the hammer, and you just hit the nail right on the head.

A well-educated and well-informed doctor may propose very different treatments and/or medications.
Provided he is not concerned with lawsuits and/or losing his license.

 

[oldjoe]

Doctors are all about drugs, drug companies and the perks they receive from the drug companies.
When some e-cig manufacturer offers free samples and an all expense paid trip somewhere, you'll see doctors recommending them.

 

[Rachy_B]

If a medical professional said to me 'im thrilled that you're off the cigarettes but i cannot endorse e-cigs because we just don't know enough yet', i would take that as a positive. They're being open and honest without being negative. So far, every medical professional I've spoken to has been very positive about ecigs and i cling to that.

Even BP know their cessation devices are used incorrectly- a guy from GSK said at the FDA conference that long term use was required for success! Plus, I wouldn't touch chantix with a 10 foot pole!

My only regret about making is that i didn't have a full medical before i started with a chest xray so i could see the medical improvement.x

 

[Tail11]

I don't think that we should. The term "electronic cigarette" was the thing that caught my eye during an internet search looking for something else. If it was not called that, I would never have started doing research about it. Most smokers want to quit but don't know about this alternative. When I started vaping, no one else I knew vaped. I knew nothing... nada. Internet research got me into it. Further research led me here. All I can add to that is "Bless you ECF!" We have each other for support.

I agree that e cigarette will catch a smokers eye. I look at it in broader terms when I say I wish we could get away from the term cigarettes. Smokers have become pariahs in most societies and cigarettes are to blame. Go into a room full of non smokers and ANTZ and say the word cigarette and hold one up. You can imagine their reaction.

I have no say in what word(s) that will be used to describe our vaping devices. I'm thrilled to see the Blu and Njoy commercials on TV and radio, to help get the word out. I was simply stating my opinion because I became sick and tired of being a pariah, thanks to cigarettes. I'd love to see a world where vaping is not put into the same category as smoking and I won't have to be herded into the byways with the cigarette smokers when I want to vape.

Congratulations on your health checkup! Good news!

 

[Tail11]

I recommend people read this article that I came across yesterday: Feds keeping people sick: The Vitamin D story

Kristen, if you found that interesting, you should read the China Study by T. Colin Campbell. Nutritious food can be a tremendous healer. It's a shame that nutrition isn't a very big subject in medical school.

 

[JoAnnW]

I agree that e cigarette will catch a smokers eye. I look at it in broader terms when I say I wish we could get away from the term cigarettes. Smokers have become pariahs in most societies and cigarettes are to blame. Go into a room full of non smokers and ANTZ and say the word cigarette and hold one up. You can imagine their reaction.

I have no say in what word(s) that will be used to describe our vaping devices. I'm thrilled to see the Blu and Njoy commercials on TV and radio, to help get the word out. I was simply stating my opinion because I became sick and tired of being a pariah, thanks to cigarettes. I'd love to see a world where vaping is not put into the same category as smoking and I won't have to be herded into the byways with the cigarette smokers when I want to vape.

Congratulations on your health checkup! Good news!

Thank you, I'm still shocked with my doctor's reaction. Just wish my family felt the same. I'm still considered a pariah to them. With all the information that I've given them, they are still nervous about my vaping, even with the positive response from my doctor. As far as the reaction from others and those in the medial field, we are in an uphill climb. Some will be receptive and some will not even if they saw positive results. These negative reactions can be very depressing at times.

 

[Thucydides]

So, while it seems that there is a fairly strong link between smoking and bulging disc, there is very little evidence supporting the claim that nicotine alone has a significant effect. So, it is definitely NOT a "known issue" with nicotine - just a theory postulated from just two animal studies and NO evidence from human studies.

Yeah, there's a basic problem with some of the studies that relate conclusions regarding nicotine: Some of them have a pernicious tendency to conflate nicotine consumption with tobacco smoking. Consequently, the deleterious effects of smoking are fallaciously equated with the nicotine consumption.

When one reads articles on nicotine, pay careful attention to how it uses the term "nicotine." If it is using the term "nicotine" to mean "all of the chemicals ingested/metabolized during the act of smoking tobacco," then it is not using the term to refer to chemical added to e-juice. Therefore, any attempt use such a study to assess the impact of the chemical added to ejuice runs afoul of the fallacy of equivocation.

 

[kristin]

I agree that e cigarette will catch a smokers eye. I look at it in broader terms when I say I wish we could get away from the term cigarettes. Smokers have become pariahs in most societies and cigarettes are to blame. Go into a room full of non smokers and ANTZ and say the word cigarette and hold one up. You can imagine their reaction.

I have no say in what word(s) that will be used to describe our vaping devices. I'm thrilled to see the Blu and Njoy commercials on TV and radio, to help get the word out. I was simply stating my opinion because I became sick and tired of being a pariah, thanks to cigarettes. I'd love to see a world where vaping is not put into the same category as smoking and I won't have to be herded into the byways with the cigarette smokers when I want to vape.

How about a world where adults who choose to do something aren't made pariahs AT ALL and not just vapers? WE let the ANTZ turn us into pariahs because we bought the junk they were selling in order to get their grants and funding from Big Pharma. The battle for e-cigarettes doesn't stop at just proving e-cigarettes are "safe and effective" or "low risk compared to smoking." It is going to involve changing attitudes regarding our right to make our own decisions for our bodies and life or else we will still be pariahs as "nicotine addicts."

So, IMO, it's not distancing vaping from smoking so much as changing attitudes about personal responsibility, personal property and choice that will gain us the most acceptance. Vaping is the one thing that could accomplish that, because it is the only example of "addiction" that I can think of that doesn't come with any of the negative, adverse affects of every other chemical addiction to which most people object. It doesn't cause users to become inebriated, harm their health or that of bystanders, become unable to function day-to-day, lose the ability/desire to work, encourage other risky behaviors or spend inordinate amounts of money (unless you get into the hobby aspect with mods and accessories.) In other words, it's the ANTZ nightmare of something that blows apart their theory of the "nicodemon" that always destroys lives and why Big Tobacco must be destroyed.

Yeah, there's a basic problem with some of the studies that relate conclusions regarding nicotine: Some of them have a pernicious tendency to conflate nicotine consumption with tobacco smoking. Consequently, the deleterious effects of smoking are fallaciously equated with the nicotine consumption.

When one reads articles on nicotine, pay careful attention to how it uses the term "nicotine." If it is using the term "nicotine" to mean "all of the chemicals ingested/metabolized during the act of smoking tobacco," then it is not using the term to refer to chemical added to e-juice. Therefore, any attempt use such a study to assess the impact of the chemical added to ejuice runs afoul of the fallacy of equivocation.

You, sir/madame, are a genius. The ANTZ do the same thing with the term "tobacco" and "smoking." When you read that "tobacco kills 440,000 people a year" those stats are based on smoking not other tobacco, yet when you read articles about smoke-free products they use that statement as if they actually have proof of how many people smoke-free tobacco supposedly "kills." There is a reason why they stopped using just "smoking" and started using "tobacco."

 

[Tail11]

So, IMO, it's not distancing vaping from smoking so much as changing attitudes about personal responsibility, personal property and choice that will gain us the most acceptance. Vaping is the one thing that could accomplish that, because it is the only example of "addiction" that I can think of that doesn't come with any of the negative, adverse affects of every other chemical addiction to which most people object. It doesn't cause users to become inebriated, harm their health or that of bystanders, become unable to function day-to-day, lose the ability/desire to work, encourage other risky behaviors or spend inordinate amounts of money (unless you get into the hobby aspect with mods and accessories.) In other words, it's the ANTZ nightmare of something that blows apart their theory of the "nicodemon" that always destroys lives and why Big Tobacco must be destroyed.

We both feel the same way Kristen, just said in different ways. Vaping and smoking are apples to oranges. Education is the key that unlocks wisdom. Until that wisdom is recognized by our country, vapors could be put in the same category as smokers. I am also speaking as a resident of California <tremendous amount of ANTZ here>, other parts of the country may have it better or worse.

I certainly don't want to see anyone become a societal pariah. Our country always seems to want to pick on some disenfranchised group <gays, homeless, poor, labor unions, smokers, druggies, and so on>. Until then, it takes education to change minds.

 

[Tail11]

Thank you, I'm still shocked with my doctor's reaction. Just wish my family felt the same. I'm still considered a pariah to them. With all the information that I've given them, they are still nervous about my vaping, even with the positive response from my doctor. As far as the reaction from others and those in the medial field, we are in an uphill climb. Some will be receptive and some will not even if they saw positive results. These negative reactions can be very depressing at times.

My friends have been supportive and most of them are smokers. I am always talking about vaping and how it's made my life better. I've even gotten a few to try vaping. One lady from the dog park came up and hugged and thanked me for turning her on to vaping.

I try not to let the negativity get me down. I know what I'm doing is far better for me and the environment. We all have to become our own cheerleader sometimes. I'm happy for you JoAnn! Keep rocking that vapor!

 

[kristin]

Vaping and smoking are apples to oranges. Education is the key that unlocks wisdom. Until that wisdom is recognized by our country, vapors could be put in the same category as smokers.

That's the problem, though. In the ANTZ mind, vaping and smoking are NOT apples and oranges - addiction is addiction. It doesn't matter to them if it's a low risk addiction. Vaping is a way to avoid "really quitting" and just one addiction or bad habit for another. If it looks like smoking, it will make kids try it and then they will become addicted and start smoking. If it looks like smoking, it reverses all of their hard work "denormalizing" smoking and more people will start smoking again. They "cannot allow" us to be addicted. We cannot be allowed governance over our own bodies because THEY know what is best for us. They aren't letting up on this - they are EXPANDING upon it: sugar, fat, salt, vitamin supplements, raw milk, alcohol, drugs, home-grown food, school lunches...the list gets longer every day.

The answer isn't educating them that vaping isn't smoking. The answer is "Back off! My body, my choice!"