FDA Why Isn't Vaping the FDA Center for Tobacco Product's Biggest Ally?
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Well done!
Why do you think they are so desperate to bring you and your family back into the herd?
So do I.
Any kind of action that a citizen can actually take - against the corruption of unelected bureaucrats and the interests (and big pocketbooks) of Big Industry.
It is very interesting indeed to see - watch, experience - how all this talk of "democracy" is one big lie.
I live in the European Union - who just passed a Tobacco Products Directive that will be a de-facto ban on vaping as we know it.
In a nutshell:
The European Parliament (the elected representatives of the people) voted to keep vaping supplies freely available as consumer goods. On 8 October 2013. After intensive activity by the European vapers. After intensive activity by precisely those people whom the proposed directive will affect. After intensive activity by citizens exercising their rights as citizens of a democracy.
Some unelected bureaucrats and their paymasters in Big Industry (mainly Pharma, but also Tobacco) did not like that.
Thus, they started a so-called "Trilogue". That is a secret meeting behind closed doors. Which also excluded the Parliament. Only a few select people were permitted - in addition to the Big Tobacco shills and the Big Pharma shills. Two people in that secret meeting fought like crazy - for the vapers, for the e-cig. The rest wanted so see all vaping banned, except for cigalikes made by Big Tobacco.
Well, the resulting Tobacco Products Directive was pushed through the European Parliament with a lot of trickery. And I mean trickery. I watched the proceedings.
If that Tobacco Products Directive is made into national law in my country, it will result in a de-facto ban on most vaping gear.
Because the European Commission wrote into that Directive a clause that they can ban any vaping product at any time - without consulting with anybody at all. And especially without consulting with the Parliament. A handful of unelected bureaucrats in some office building in Brussels make a unilateral decision - and all the 28 member states have to obey. Which will then affect all of the people in all of the 28 member states.
Like an EUSSR - with the Central Committee in Brussels instead of Moscow.
That is my reality. I have seen it happen. I have seen just how little the people count. When there is big money to be made. By faceless unelected bureaucrats.
- Yes, it is a good thing to take action. You cannot just sit there and say "Let others do it". And then, when your case is lost, whine "why did others not take action?" - But be prepared for a complete and total disillusionment with anything political. And be prepared to find out, for yourself, that the tale of "democracy" is one big lie. Told to children to keep them quiet. And be prepared for a change in your outlook that is irreversible. Because you have seen the truth.
Well stated, Anj. Your quote from Mein Kampf is priceless and so telling. I would like to throw that quote in the faces of Senators Harkin, Boxer, Durbin, etc.
Your reference to Thomas Sowell's writings and logic is also excellent. Sowell is one of my favorite political writers/commentators. Unfortunately the current political leadership in this (and many other countries) would rather follow some of the "logic" of A.H. than a Thomas Sowell.
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If the alternatives are good, compared to vaping, then your point makes sense. The less good they are, the more vaping will be sought. Currently all of it exists as legal, and vaping appears to be the most popular choice. Are the amount of smokers and other NRT users rising to the same degree as vapers are?
And I would say most people that try it in last year or less, have found it works to some degree for them. A black market stands a better chance of staying hidden and going on indefinitely if it is not online, while all the information for 'how to make the most out of vaping, and be safe' will be likely found somewhere online.
And it humors me to write all this as if vaping prohibition is weeks away. Or is months away? Or is closer to a decade away?
And if you think millions will not, I think you are expressing an extremely naive take on humanity. Kids are already doing it, and will continue to do it when this FDA rule goes into effect. Navigating the black market to ensure they can continue to vape.
As I've said before, if this vaping prohibition is able to work (like really work), then these regulators ought to be hired immediately to work on the War on Drugs, for surely within a few weeks or months they can eradicate that problem from humanity. For no adults anywhere will ever seek out the black market, according to your reasoning.
I for one will gladly turn to a black market for my supplies if necessary then go back to smoking.
I disagree with your point above (underlined).
One merely needs to look toward Colorado or Washington state.
I would wager that these "victories" were not won merely by young voters but rather supported and financed over years by an entrenched user base of politically active 40, 50 and 60 year olds (various TV documentaries show this as well).
And a robust "black market" kept things going until victory was obtained.
Vaping, unlike other schedule #1 things, is not comprised of illegal components - everything in a mod (electrical or mechanical) is easily and legally obtained from any number of sources including local hardware stores.
Similarly with juice - even nicotine alone, as a chemical as I have pointed out on other posts - is simply a non-regulated industrial chemical.
And in a black market you have government pushing up the price of "legal" smokes and possibly vapes (including taxes), e.g., NYC with $10 packs.
I guarantee you there is money to be made selling vapes for 3/4 or 7/8 the prices of cigarettes.
Anyone who wants to smoke more than likely will also want to do it cheaply.
Plus, from the black market perspective, all of these are repeat customers needing a regular fix.
In fact, if you pretended your vape was for "wax" as they call it, why no one would give it a second thought.
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You pretty much cherry picked my whole post especially when it comes to the growth of new vapers under a black market environment in comparison to the current vaping environment . Be that as it may, using your Colorado and Washington example of how a black market will support vaping until the government possibly changes it's mind, there are a number of problems that you just ignore.
1. It took at least 50 years for two states to legalize the formally illegal substance you are referencing. My guess it will take another 50 years, if ever, for that change to reach to all 50 states.
2. You completely ignore what happened to at least hundreds of thousands of people who supported that black market over that 50 year time frame. It ruined many of their lives due to the legal consequences of their actions.
3. The choke point is the acquisition of nicotine formulated in a safe manner that can be used to make a consumable product. If the government decides to support their proposed regulations by strictly controlling this form of nicotine, it will NOT help create millions of new vapers.
4. Considering that only 2M - 3M former smokers out of 42M switched to vaping without any restrictions in place currently, the idea that a black market will vastly increase the percentage of new vapers, defies logic.
5. From my own unscientifically supported experience, in talking with hundreds of full time and part-time local vapers, your idea that the vast majority of current vapers (not to mention new future vapers) will suddenly become DIY gurus for both e-liquid and devices is not logical at all. There will always be some, but a very small percentage.
6. If you think that waiting 50 years for the government to change it's stance on vaping is a solution, as your comparison to Colorado and Washington suggests, I think your "rose colored glasses" are really fogged up.
Again, I am not against a black market, it just won't produce many new vapers or even create a good environment for the vaping community.
As I stated before, IMO: The only solution to the issue is sustained public, political and possibly legal pressure. Counting on a black market just distracts from the actions that need to be taken NOW.
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Regarding Colorado or Washington state, I would not want to have to wait 75 years to see vaping supplies become legal.
Nicotine as a non-regulated industrial chemical, still remains in it's pure form, highly toxic requiring a sophisticated hazmat laboratory setting to be handled. Diluted by a factor of 10, still needs to be handled carefully, with simpler laboratory safety precautions. Diluted by a factor of 100 it becomes vaping supplies, with precautions similar to any other household chemical.
Nicotine, besides requiring a large supply of raw tobacco (regulated and highly taxed) remains much more difficult to obtain or produce or distribute. Prohibition could be beaten by brewing a batch of beer on your kitchen stove ....Breweries Survive Prohibition by Selling Malt Extract
Nicotine as a non-regulated industrial chemical, still remains in it's pure form, highly toxic requiring a sophisticated hazmat laboratory setting to be handled. Diluted by a factor of 10, still needs to be handled carefully, with simpler laboratory safety precautions. Diluted by a factor of 100 it becomes vaping supplies, with precautions similar to any other household chemical.
Nicotine, besides requiring a large supply of raw tobacco (regulated and highly taxed) remains much more difficult to obtain or produce or distribute. Prohibition could be beaten by brewing a batch of beer on your kitchen stove ....Breweries Survive Prohibition by Selling Malt Extract
No argument with your reasoning, just with the dates.....
THE <you-know> TAX ACT OF 1937
This is not necessarily true. Especially for young people. If they think something is better they don't necessarily care if it is black market. Although, how many 40, 50, 60 and even 70 year olds go to the black market for various things?
Then you are postulating that the Deeming Regulations and the creation of a black market will increase the number of new vapers in comparison to how many new vapers are created in today's vaping environment. Because I am stating the exact opposite will happen. Are there people in society who like the "thrill" or whatever it is, of breaking the law - sure. Are there millions of them like this - not even close.
Anyone who thinks a "black market" is the best alternative to the proposed Deeming Regulations, doesn't exist in the same reality that I live in.
Right now, talking about a black market is not a viable option. I think people underestimate the costs and I'm not just talking about the price of a substance. There is increasing push back, including fines, criminal charges and we have prison's full of them. It has lead to organized violence, armed crime getting a substance into the country with needless bloodshed along the way. I think that's a highly "romanticized" idea for a "robust" black market. It's destroyed lives. Most people will not risk jobs, their families, homes and possessions (guilty or not), hope for their future to participate. IMO, it's questionable whether a right to civil disobedience exists and I don't recall courts affirming the civil right does exist against corporate interests. Even a string of bank robberies or millions of people downloading could be called "civil disobedience", but it's not. Don't misunderstand, I'll be one of the first to figure out ways to cross boundaries if it'll help someone out. But it's not a solution or reliable option, and if developed, would never be talked about here. I'd like to suggest giving that up in conversations.
The net affect of deeming regulations would be freezing the growth of vaping, along with development of devices and delivery methods. The image of vaping would be harmed, also eliminating growth from new vapers. Those results could be seen before regulations are finalized since few people will invest in a limited market with high overhead to maintain the status quo (whatever that turns out to be). The harm will be done. Many business' might not submit registration applications within the first 6 months to stay on the market.
One perspective I've read was that there's a lot of undefined, vague terms in the deeming regulations and they thought the FDA was pressured into releasing a document too early. If true, maybe some of these incomplete terms can be used in our favor?
This "public health" standard / measurement is one I question, it's there and needs to be addressed, but I wonder what would pass the test as FDA / CDC's applying it? Would caffeine, chocolate, ice cream or even vitamin C? I honestly don't know. I'd like to find something for comparison value. Who put that standard in, Congress - what was their intent? Is it a valid standard on a "recreational" product or is their hope of modifying it? I can't think of anything that passes.
The net affect of deeming regulations would be freezing the growth of vaping, along with development of devices and delivery methods. The image of vaping would be harmed, also eliminating growth from new vapers. Those results could be seen before regulations are finalized since few people will invest in a limited market with high overhead to maintain the status quo (whatever that turns out to be). The harm will be done. Many business' might not submit registration applications within the first 6 months to stay on the market.
One perspective I've read was that there's a lot of undefined, vague terms in the deeming regulations and they thought the FDA was pressured into releasing a document too early. If true, maybe some of these incomplete terms can be used in our favor?
This "public health" standard / measurement is one I question, it's there and needs to be addressed, but I wonder what would pass the test as FDA / CDC's applying it? Would caffeine, chocolate, ice cream or even vitamin C? I honestly don't know. I'd like to find something for comparison value. Who put that standard in, Congress - what was their intent? Is it a valid standard on a "recreational" product or is their hope of modifying it? I can't think of anything that passes.
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Ask that during prohibition here, or in any country abroad under a fascist/socialistic/communistic regime, now.
No, that is not what I am stating. I am saying that people will turn to the black market when they know the the truth regarding e cigs. How many vapors are there today? Think we will remain quiet? I know I will not. How many people will try to help ill loved ones? The truth is out there. No way to put this genie back into the bottle.
Soylent Green:
Det. Thorn (Charles Heston): I know, Sol, you've told me a hundred times before. People were better, the world was better...
Sol: (Ed.G.Robinson) Ah, people were always lousy... But there was a world, once.
[Thorn chuckles]
Sol: I was there, I can prove it! When I was a kid, you could buy meat anywhere! Eggs they had, real butter! Not this... crap!
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No, I don't think anyone is doing that. I think people are still hung up on previous statements, like "There will be NO new vapers" and "The the vaping industry will become unsustainable". Will the proposed deeming regs slow the adoption of vaping? Yeah, probably. Will it stop it? Will it make the (world-wide) industry unsustainable? No way!
The best alternative would be for the FDA to simply leave us alone. But since it seems they're not willing to do that, one of the things I'm gonna tell them is that no matter what they do, they won't stop me from vaping, and they won't stop me from talking about and trying to demonstrate the benefits of switching to any smoker I encounter who might be even a little bit curious. If vaping continues to grow at it's current rate for the 2-3 years that it will take for regs to become effective, there won't just be 2-3 million of us, there will be 10-20 million of us by then. Now, Mr. Zeller, do you really want 10-20 million people royally ...... at you because you're taking away something that they perceive to be life-saving? Do you really think they're going to go back to smoking, or to the ineffective and stupid-expensive "FDA Approved" products? Life always finds a way, Mr. Zeller, whether you and your masters at BT and BP like it or not.
I'm not disagreeing that a percentage of current vapers would utilize a black market to obtain supplies. How large a percentage will depend on the risk level. What I am also saying is the black market will not increase new vapers in comparison to what exists today. Thus, the industry will stagnate, not grow and not develop.
I remember that movie. It was fun and creepy. Possibly Edgar G. Robinson's last movie or at least one of the last. He was making movies in the early 1930's.
That depends. The cig-a-likes will keep the public informed that vaping exists. Those who use more advanced equipment will be showing the newbies how to do it. They can't take it away. It is not like they will make them illegal or ban vaping. DIY will be the order of the day.
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