Why should we care about the FDA ban?

[ProtoType]

I started vaping to get off analogs. I thoroughly quit since day 1 and have never touched another analog. I really do enjoy vaping. This ban and regulation in the midst is disappointing. But why did all you guys start vaping? I did it as a transition state and to quit altogether..

I plan on stocking piling and quit in the fall or for my new year's resolution.

Humans were never meant to inhale anything other than oxygen and trace elements found in nature. Do you guys expect to vape forever anyway? I'm vaping as I am typing, but I know I am not going to vape forever.

Do you guys intend to vape forever or do you share my perspective?

 

[VelvetVisions]

Why should I have to worry about it either way? It really should be my choice and at this stage it's not hurting anyone else. That was and has been everyone's biggest gripe about analogs, the second hand smoke and making others sick. Well, I can say with almost certainty that is no longer the case, so why should I have to quit vaping. Whether that is my ultimate goal or not should not be the question. I don't know that I will ever stop vaping, even if I decide to go to 0 nic. I have tried to quit analogs many times (as have most of us) and even after 8 mths of being smoke free I have gone back. I would rather know that I always have this as an option versus analogs.

 

[Kit45]

probably would quit eventually, I just do not want to be forced to quit. currently I very much enjoy vaping. When I originally stumbled across e-cigs, I had no intention of quitting smoking, however......
I just don't need any person or agency dictating what I can and cannot smoke,vape, eat, breath......

 

[Bandit]

Here's how I look at it...

1) I started vaping to get off of cigarettes. More than 20 years of smoking without the ability to quit no matter how hard I try, and now this is helping me.

2) I plan to cut my nicotine intake on each cart order. This month I have high, next month will be medium, the following month will be low nicotine. Once my body is weaned off the nicotine, I can battle the oral fixation. I seem to be unable to tackle both simultaneously. My goal is to not be inhaling ANYTHING in 6 months.

3) This is my tool to enable me to quit, not a substitute to have yet another habit.

This stuff is dangerous as well, and whatever you may hear from members here and elsewhere... the FDA SHOULD be stepping in at some point. Is it as dangerous as cigarettes? Likely not, but still dangerous, and e-cig ads from brands like Blu and others make it sound like it is a SAFE alternative to smoking.

Listen, we're smokers... and we as smokers are STUPID. Not stupid in most areas of our life, but stupid in the fact that we KNOW cigarettes can (and for many of us) WILL kill us. Yet we ignore that because of the enjoyment and addiction to cigarettes. So now we are offered an alternative that on the surface sounds less dangerous, but there are red flags we ignore because we WANT to do this.

• Not FDA approved or even evaluated. We are taking chemicals into our body and really have no clue what the long term affects may be. Think of it like this... remember the HUGE popularity of Phen-Phen diet pills a decade or more ago? It was THE miracle cure for overweight people. Then, many years later we found out there was a direct link between Phen-Phen and cancer. And there are many other examples you can use here.
• We are inhaling pure nicotine which we know is a poison. A poisonous alkaloid that is used in insecticides.
• We are inhaling Propylene Glycol which breaks down and deteriorates protein and cellular structure. The EPA warns factory workers who are exposed to even small levels of PG to avoid external (skin) contact due to proven links to brain, liver, and kidney abnormalities. We are inhaling the main ingredient in antifreeze. It is also a main ingredient in brake fluid and plane de-icer!

Now go look around the forum. There is a thread around here that everyone can list the "effects" of vaping that they have encountered. I saw most were blindly attributing the effects to quitting cigarettes... !!!! Symptoms like blisters in the mouth, dryness, headaches, very bad sore throats, coughing, wheezing, and other disturbing symptoms.



Here's a list of known side effects of exposure (both external and internal) to PG:

contact dermatitis (irritation), auto toxicity, kidney damage and liver abnormalities. It has been shown to be toxic to human cells in cultures. (Bulletin of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, Jan. 1987) In fact, in tests conducted over the years propylene glycol has been shown to inhibit skin cells growth in human tests and cell respiration in animal tests. (J. Pharm. Belg. Nov/Dec 1989). It was found to cause skeletal muscular damage in rats and rabbits (Pharm Res Sept. 1989). It is reported to directly alter cell membranes (Human Reproduction, Feb 1990) to cause thickening of the skin (contact dermatitis, 1987) skin dehydration and chronic surface damage to skin ( Derm. Beruf Umwelt July/Aug, 1988) It was also shown to increase beta activity (changes found in anxiety states) when inhaled. (The Medical Post Sept 27, 1994.)

Propylene glycol is a known irritant and sensitizer causing dryness, erythema (abnormal redness) and even blistering. (Safety Evaluation of a Barrier Cream, Contact Dermatitis, 17:10-12, 1987)

So.... why is anyone surprised that we are having side effects???

Why is anyone surprised that the FDA is trying to step in????

I have to chuckle at those who dismiss this FDA thing as "they just want to tax it"... while that may be a likely result, the reason is because we are ingesting really dangerous **** from a country known to export products that are dangerous. Hell, the Chinese take normally SAFE items and make them deadly (lead-based paints on kid's toys????) and they are using their poisoned water to make our juice.


But, the stupid smoker that I am... I will still vape, but to an end. There is an and-game for me, and hopefully that will come long before I feel any ill-effects from vaping. I am praying that we don't find out in 10 years that what we're doing will cause a serious health condition. I'd like to say that this is less deadly than smoking... but we simply do not know yet.

 

[Talen]

• Not FDA approved or even evaluated. We are taking chemicals into our body and really have no clue what the long term affects may be. Think of it like this... remember the HUGE popularity of Phen-Phen diet pills a decade or more ago? It was THE miracle cure for overweight people. Then, many years later we found out there was a direct link between Phen-Phen and cancer. And there are many other examples you can use here.

There are literally millions of products used by Americans every day that are not approved or regulated by the FDA. Having FDA approval doesn't necessarily make a product bad or make a product safe. There have been countless instances where FDA officials have been plied by lobbyists to approve drugs known to kill. The FDA is not the end all and be all.

fenfluramine and phentermine were two separate drugs that doctors found helped obese people lose weight when used in conjunction. The drugs were pulled after the Mayo clinic found a direct link to the use of these drugs and heart valve disease. It was also established later that these drugs were found to have caused certain lung diseases.

On the same day the Mayo Clinic issued its report, the FDA issued a Public Health Advisory. The drug maker voulatarily removed the drugs from the market before the FDA did anything.

• We are inhaling pure nicotine which we know is a poison. A poisonous alkaloid that is used in insecticides.

Absolutely incorrect. You are not inhaling pure nicotine. 1 drop of actual pure nicotine can kill several adults. By all accounts the nicotine used in inhalers and what we are using is 33% pure. Many products that are misused can become poisons. Aspirin can kill you if you take too many for instance.

• We are inhaling Propylene Glycol which breaks down and deteriorates protein and cellular structure. The EPA warns factory workers who are exposed to even small levels of PG to avoid external (skin) contact due to proven links to brain, liver, and kidney abnormalities. We are inhaling the main ingredient in antifreeze. It is also a main ingredient in brake fluid and plane de-icer!

The oral toxicity of propylene glycol is very low, and large quantities are required to incur the dangerous effects described above. The potential for long-term toxicity is also low. In one study, rats were provided with feed containing as much as 5% PG over a period of 104 weeks and they showed no apparent ill effects.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol#cite_note-6 Because of its low chronic oral toxicity, propylene glycol is generally recognized as safe (GRAS) for use as a direct food additive. Cases of propylene glycol poisoning are related to either inappropriate intravenous use or accidental ingestion of large quantities by children.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol#cite_note-7


Serious toxicity will occur only at plasma concentrations over 4g/L, which requires extremely high intake over a relatively short period of time.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol#cite_note-8 It would be nearly impossible to reach toxic levels by consuming foods or supplements, which contain at most 1g/kg of PG. Propylene glycol is metabolized into pyruvic acid, which is a normal part of the glucose metabolism process and is readily converted to energy.


We are ingesting nowhere near these toxic levels.

 

[MidnighToker]

• Not FDA approved or even evaluated. We are taking chemicals into our body and really have no clue what the long term affects may be. Think of it like this... remember the HUGE popularity of Phen-Phen diet pills a decade or more ago? It was THE miracle cure for overweight people. Then, many years later we found out there was a direct link between Phen-Phen and cancer. And there are many other examples you can use here.
• We are inhaling pure nicotine which we know is a poison. A poisonous alkaloid that is used in insecticides.
• We are inhaling Propylene Glycol which breaks down and deteriorates protein and cellular structure. The EPA warns factory workers who are exposed to even small levels of PG to avoid external (skin) contact due to proven links to brain, liver, and kidney abnormalities. We are inhaling the main ingredient in antifreeze. It is also a main ingredient in brake fluid and plane de-icer!

Now go look around the forum. There is a thread around here that everyone can list the "effects" of vaping that they have encountered. I saw most were blindly attributing the effects to quitting cigarettes... !!!! Symptoms like blisters in the mouth, dryness, headaches, very bad sore throats, coughing, wheezing, and other disturbing symptoms.



Here's a list of known side effects of exposure (both external and internal) to PG:

contact dermatitis (irritation), auto toxicity, kidney damage and liver abnormalities. It has been shown to be toxic to human cells in cultures. (Bulletin of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, Jan. 1987) In fact, in tests conducted over the years propylene glycol has been shown to inhibit skin cells growth in human tests and cell respiration in animal tests. (J. Pharm. Belg. Nov/Dec 1989). It was found to cause skeletal muscular damage in rats and rabbits (Pharm Res Sept. 1989). It is reported to directly alter cell membranes (Human Reproduction, Feb 1990) to cause thickening of the skin (contact dermatitis, 1987) skin dehydration and chronic surface damage to skin ( Derm. Beruf Umwelt July/Aug, 1988) It was also shown to increase beta activity (changes found in anxiety states) when inhaled. (The Medical Post Sept 27, 1994.)

Propylene glycol is a known irritant and sensitizer causing dryness, erythema (abnormal redness) and even blistering. (Safety Evaluation of a Barrier Cream, Contact Dermatitis, 17:10-12, 1987)

So.... why is anyone surprised that we are having side effects???

Why is anyone surprised that the FDA is trying to step in????

I have to chuckle at those who dismiss this FDA thing as "they just want to tax it"... while that may be a likely result, the reason is because we are ingesting really dangerous **** from a country known to export products that are dangerous. Hell, the Chinese take normally SAFE items and make them deadly (lead-based paints on kid's toys????) and they are using their poisoned water to make our juice.


But, the stupid smoker that I am... I will still vape, but to an end. There is an and-game for me, and hopefully that will come long before I feel any ill-effects from vaping. I am praying that we don't find out in 10 years that what we're doing will cause a serious health condition. I'd like to say that this is less deadly than smoking... but we simply do not know yet.

Bah!

Should it be proven that vaping PG does indeed cause health issues, the transition to VG is not all that difficult.

For me this is not necessarily a means to an end. At some point I MAY wean off the nic, but I enjoy it. And not just as an addict. Same way that I enjoy the occasional drink after dinner(potentially lethal as well...yet not banned). Just the ACT of vaping is soothing and "centering"....similar to the way monks observe and use the smoke from incense.

As for the FDA...
The hypocrisy of them saying that vaping is too dangerous for us while allowing big tobacco to continue just flat out ...... me the fluck off.

 

[defnet0]

Great post!

 

[Jasindustrial]

Great thread, to be more accurate. I enjoyed reading each of these posts and I'm thankful for the information and different opinions/pov.

I can't say that I'll vape forever, but I can say that I understand how many use it to eventually quit completely and others see it as relaxing.

For what it's worth, I'm happy if anything gets me off analogs. So far, vaping has. That being said, replacing one addiction with another isn't really solving things, it's just changing it.

I have problems with this situation as much as anyone else. The thing is, the same argument has been made in regards to marijuana vs alcohol.

 

[MidnighToker]

The thing is, the same argument has been made in regards to marijuana vs alcohol.

True, but as of today, marijuana is considered a controlled substance...nicotine is not. But they do want to limit/control/ban only one form of nic.

 

[KreeL]

Noone has claimed you can't use e-cigs to quit, bandit. You are doing quite nicely it seems.

However, for a large number of vapers, vaping is simply a safer alternative to smoking. Anyone that believes the FDA on this current issue has a screw loose. It also doesn't make you appear any more intelligent when you claim we are vaping pure nicotine. Although I am trying to understand your post, it fails.

 

[Vince1]

Proto, I agree with your thinking (personally). I had no intention of quitting when I started vaping, just wanted a safer alternative. After 6 months I have cut down from 36mg to 24mg and plan on going to 18mg soon and so on and eventually quit. I have enough stock for 2 years so the ban is no problem for me but my concern is for all the people who will never get the option we have and have to use ineffective patches and gum to quit.
Also I still agree with the right to vape forever if someone wants to.

Even if I quit I will still probably have the occasional cigar now and then for special occasions and such.

But we are indeed fortunate to have gotten in on this when we did.

 

[laurieok]

However, for a large number of vapers, vaping is simply a safer alternative to smoking. Anyone that believes the FDA on this current issue has a screw loose.

This is how I feel. A safer alternative. I don't know if I will ever quit and with the e-cig I don't feel I have to if I don't want to. I know how much better I feel vaping instead of smoking. The hacking cough is gone! If they are bad for me, so be it, but I feel better and that can't be bad!! I smoked 2 pks a day for 40 years...some habits are so ingrained-the hand to mouth thing- that I feel this is a safer alternative and one I can live with!!

 

[Scaralouche]

"live" being the operative word here.

 

[happily]

I started vaping so I could smoke MORE..............and as much as I've always loved it, if I don't keep this handy for a few years. I would stand a very good chance of picking up the alternative on a whim. Not that I'll vape forever but I will carry one in my wallet like a high schooler's condum

 

[Jasonlowe]

Let them do testing,if they find something alarming overall let the public know,but don't ban e cigs till they have true proof that e cigs are more harmful than analogs.

 

[Bones]

The question remains not IF the offending chemical compounds are there - rather - how MUCH of them is there - Even by the FDA tests (deeply flawed and Unscientific so far) the amounts shown are not in concentrations high enough to pose serious risks. a sample of 18 carts out of millions is not good science - It's not even science - It's a witch hunt at this point - The side effects of PG are known - However they are also known to be present in a small percentage of users - It is an allergic reaction that the large majority never experience - It is not overtly harmful or deadly in any way (as far as we know based on real science) It has been around and being inhaled for a very long time -

I also find it very odd that the FDA should be deemed worthy of blind trust - Tomatoes - Grapes - Spinach - Peanut Butter - Beef - All of these items have killed and sickened people in recent years - Where was your faith in the FDA then? - Those didn't come from China - All FDA stamped as approved - The FDA is part of the Executive Branch - Politically motivated and controlled - They are not worthy of unquestioned trust any more than any other politically motivated agency -

Just this past week 2 notable FDA counterparts in the Food Safety branch have come under fire for attempting to fast track Genetically Modified Crops for political reasons - So - NO - I do NOT trust the FDA - I trust my own research and intellect to decide for myself what is good for me - And on this case of 4000+ harmful chemicals in tobacco VS - 3 found in tiny amounts in the E-Cig - I go with the E-cig - No matter what the FDA says - I will look at the FDA results and Independent testing and I will decide what I put in MY BODY! This issue goes far beyond safety of the E-cig - It is about personal freedom - What if they come for Pizza or Hamburgers next? Where is the outrage over the harmful chemicals from pollution in every breath we take? I have a much higher chance of getting cancer from breathing the air in a mall parking lot than I do from my E-cig -

 

[Bones]

Let them do testing,if they find something alarming overall let the public know,but don't ban e cigs till they have true proof that e cigs are more harmful than analogs.

They have already proved that E-Cigs are FAR FAR LESS harmful than Tobacco Smoking -

 

[tannerk]

NO. I do NOT trust the FDA. I trust my own research and intellect to decide for myself what is good for me. And on this case of 4000+ harmful chemicals in tobacco VS 3 (only in some carts) found in tiny amounts in the E-Cig.

I go with the E-cig, no matter what the FDA says. I will look at the FDA results and Independent testing and I will decide what I put in MY BODY!

Bones, I'd give that ten thumbs up, but I only have two. Nuf said!

-- --

 

[DC2]

I can say with complete confidence that I will never quit vaping.

The only way I would quit is if for some stupid reason I am unable to get them anymore.
And if that happens, then I will go back to smoking immediately and never quit smoking.

I smoked, and now vape, as a means to take a break from work, or any stressful situation.
I use it as a means to get away and think things through.

None of the many alternatives that I have tried has ever worked at all.
None of them are even close.

 

[Bones]

[*]We are inhaling Propylene Glycol which breaks down and deteriorates protein and cellular structure. The EPA warns factory workers who are exposed to even small levels of PG to avoid external (skin) contact due to proven links to brain, liver, and kidney abnormalities. We are inhaling the main ingredient in antifreeze. It is also a main ingredient in brake fluid and plane de-icer!
.

There is a lot wrong with what you say here - take a closer look at the data - I think you are confusing compounds - PG is the delivery mechanism for asthma medications - PG in and of itself has been approved by the FDA countless times for a multitude of consumption purposes - So has the more harmful DEG - The anti-freeze connection is a scare tactic - WATER is the main ingredient in a swimming pool - It is not the water that makes it dangerous to drink pool water - It's the Chlorine - All the other problems you list must be looked at in degrees - Water can kill you - It's concentrations and frequency of occurrence that are the important factors - PG was substituted for previous components in anti-freeze to make it LESS harmful - That statement is so misleading and wrong - Statements like that are practicing what you find here - http://www.dhmo.org/

Here is the PG info - Propylene Glycol Research Study Results - More than you can shake an E-cig at - 100% safe? - No - What is? 1000% safer than tobacco? - A RESOUNDING YES! - The FDA is gearing up to conclude that E-cigs may be as harmful or even MORE harmful than Tobacco - THIS IS A LIE!

The other harmful compounds in E-Juice can be eliminated by use of synthetic nicotine - I welcome regulation to insure that an agreed upon safe formulation is offered to the e-smoker - I want that to be based on FACTS not speculative scare tactics and half truths that are not quantified or put in proper perspective - And as my previous post states - It is foolish to assume that if such guidlines are put in place this will garantee that the guidlines will be followed - there is no such thing as 100% safe - FDA or not - Life does not come with a grantee - I could walk out of my house right now and be hit by a bus - Shall we outlaw public transport due to the risks?