Why shouldn't the FDA interfere?
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8-o
Hahahaha...when I read the comment, in the back of my mind I thought.."Holy Sh.tballs.....wait till Kate sees that one!".....
Nuck--you think logically--Agencies like the FDA do not--they do knee jerk reactions. "When in Doubt--Ban Everything" is their mentallity--the only reason I say that is we have a definitave statment from the FDA that they state that the devices are illegal to sell --That is not logical, but the FDA is not logical---Sun
I'm not much of a reactionary Nuck, I usually only care about serious stuff
EDIT
Come on guys, be fair, I hardly ever challenge stuff on the forum, much better things to do.
i agree... i was just.... looking for word... "agast" when i saw the post.. and knew you were currently posting and thought "oh my... that's not gonna go over well"
I partially agree with Nuck, with regards to the devices not being banned. I can see them being banned initially, but then being reintroduced later as miniature smoke machines, or some sort of novelty device that doesn't involve nicotine.
But the juice, I just don't see it making it through. I think if e-cigs survive, they will come in sealed, disposable cartridges. But that's assuming that the juice is as dangerous as people are saying it is.
Before my interest in e-cigs last month, the only other time I recall hearing about nicotine being toxic was in an episode of Columbo, and the warnings on Nicotine Gum. Maybe I've heard it elsewhere, but just didn't pay attention because my ears have been trained to shut down when I hear about the dangers of anything to do with cigarettes. So I really don't know how dangerous this stuff is.
I just had an order of Totally Wicked delivered today, (great service, ordered last tuesday night, shipped wednesday, and arrived in Vancouver from the UK today).
So anyways, this was my first experience with the eye dropper. I'm having trouble with my atomizers, so I opened up a 20ml bottle of coconut, and was dripping into one, testing it, dripping into another, etc. So I was doing this for about 30 mins, and I got up to help my son with something, and knocked over the bottle. About 10ml spilt onto the coffee table, and as I was clearing the area of people and pets, I started thinking......
When my son was a baby, and he'd spill his drinks, he'd swirl his hand around in it. If a child did this with my spilt 10ml of 36mg, would they die?
I wiped it up with paper towel, making sure that I didn't touch the liquid, and then put the paper towel in the trash. Noticing that the trash was almost full, I wondered what would happen if the next person to throw out garbage pushed the trash down to make more room, and touched the paper towel, would they die?
What if it happened in a public place, like a restaurant, would I put the paper towel in my pocket? Would I call the waitress over, ask her to put on rubber gloves, and dispose of everything in a sealed bag with a biohazard sticker? How would that go over with the public?
What if it was just some guy, who spilit his liquid in the restaurant, and didn't know of the dangers, or didn't care. Could the waitress die whe she cleaned up the mess? Could she spread it around the restaurant with her table rag?
How bad is this stuff? If it's this bad, then anybody who thinks that it will remain legal is smoking something other than e-liquid. You can talk about freedom until your blue in the face. I don't even have the freedom to smoke within 6m of a bustop or doorway because someone might get a whiff of my smoke, do you really think anybody is going to tolerate millions of us walking around dripping this liquid?
But the juice, I just don't see it making it through. I think if e-cigs survive, they will come in sealed, disposable cartridges. But that's assuming that the juice is as dangerous as people are saying it is.
Before my interest in e-cigs last month, the only other time I recall hearing about nicotine being toxic was in an episode of Columbo, and the warnings on Nicotine Gum. Maybe I've heard it elsewhere, but just didn't pay attention because my ears have been trained to shut down when I hear about the dangers of anything to do with cigarettes. So I really don't know how dangerous this stuff is.
I just had an order of Totally Wicked delivered today, (great service, ordered last tuesday night, shipped wednesday, and arrived in Vancouver from the UK today).
So anyways, this was my first experience with the eye dropper. I'm having trouble with my atomizers, so I opened up a 20ml bottle of coconut, and was dripping into one, testing it, dripping into another, etc. So I was doing this for about 30 mins, and I got up to help my son with something, and knocked over the bottle. About 10ml spilt onto the coffee table, and as I was clearing the area of people and pets, I started thinking......
When my son was a baby, and he'd spill his drinks, he'd swirl his hand around in it. If a child did this with my spilt 10ml of 36mg, would they die?
I wiped it up with paper towel, making sure that I didn't touch the liquid, and then put the paper towel in the trash. Noticing that the trash was almost full, I wondered what would happen if the next person to throw out garbage pushed the trash down to make more room, and touched the paper towel, would they die?
What if it happened in a public place, like a restaurant, would I put the paper towel in my pocket? Would I call the waitress over, ask her to put on rubber gloves, and dispose of everything in a sealed bag with a biohazard sticker? How would that go over with the public?
What if it was just some guy, who spilit his liquid in the restaurant, and didn't know of the dangers, or didn't care. Could the waitress die whe she cleaned up the mess? Could she spread it around the restaurant with her table rag?
How bad is this stuff? If it's this bad, then anybody who thinks that it will remain legal is smoking something other than e-liquid. You can talk about freedom until your blue in the face. I don't even have the freedom to smoke within 6m of a bustop or doorway because someone might get a whiff of my smoke, do you really think anybody is going to tolerate millions of us walking around dripping this liquid?
Grody--Very good and logical thought process you have --now you can see how an agument for saftey against e-liquid will easily be spun into "Oh My God--its radation!!!". That is why I contend the FDA will have a field day---thanks for the input--Sun
Grody, it's not that bad. Your scenarios are certainly possible, but the amount of transdermal absorption through skin contact would not be fatal -- unless we're talking an extreme allergy or something. A person would need to ingest the fluid to die from it. 10ml would be fatal, easily to any child, most likely to Hulk Hogan.
But our liquids are not untouchable, as you describe. If you contact it, wash it off as soon as you can. Some people have skin reactions to it, but others have rubbed it on themselves without so much as a red spot.
I see this scenario: A freshly opened super mini cart slips off a table onto the floor. You know, the itty-bitty kind used in the "looks just my cigarette" e-cig. Little things. Along comes a toddler on all fours. What do toddlers do with small objects they encounter? They pop 'em into their mouth. How many moms have used a finger to fish out objects they've seen a toddler put into a mouth?
But what if mom doesn't see that one second of reach and eat?
That's my nightmare scenario. And, yes, there's enough liquid in that little cart to kill a toddler. And who will understand that the screams of pain a short time later signify nicotine poisoning?
The FDA is supposed to approve this?
But our liquids are not untouchable, as you describe. If you contact it, wash it off as soon as you can. Some people have skin reactions to it, but others have rubbed it on themselves without so much as a red spot.
I see this scenario: A freshly opened super mini cart slips off a table onto the floor. You know, the itty-bitty kind used in the "looks just my cigarette" e-cig. Little things. Along comes a toddler on all fours. What do toddlers do with small objects they encounter? They pop 'em into their mouth. How many moms have used a finger to fish out objects they've seen a toddler put into a mouth?
But what if mom doesn't see that one second of reach and eat?
That's my nightmare scenario. And, yes, there's enough liquid in that little cart to kill a toddler. And who will understand that the screams of pain a short time later signify nicotine poisoning?
The FDA is supposed to approve this?
That scenario is my biggest concern with vaping. It's one thing to say parents have to keep their kids safe, but its another to make it so damn likely that some very bad sh.t will happen.
A vaper without kids leaves his carts or bottle of 'coca cola' juice at a restaurant or on a beach and the next family that comes along has a child... There are endless ways something this dangerous, that is taken around and used so frequently, could fall into young hands.
I think the first step is to just not buy liquid from suppliers who don't spend the few pennies extra to at least take minimal packaging precautions. The next step, which will require government intervention, is to develop a sealed cart that is pierced by the atomizer and that reseals when removed.
I've come up with 2 designs that could potentially work without putting much effort into it. Surely the real engineers that design these could come up with realistic and workable solutions BEFORE they are forced into it with a ban.
The future isn't grim..but it sure is going to be a bumpy ride.
A vaper without kids leaves his carts or bottle of 'coca cola' juice at a restaurant or on a beach and the next family that comes along has a child... There are endless ways something this dangerous, that is taken around and used so frequently, could fall into young hands.
I think the first step is to just not buy liquid from suppliers who don't spend the few pennies extra to at least take minimal packaging precautions. The next step, which will require government intervention, is to develop a sealed cart that is pierced by the atomizer and that reseals when removed.
I've come up with 2 designs that could potentially work without putting much effort into it. Surely the real engineers that design these could come up with realistic and workable solutions BEFORE they are forced into it with a ban.
The future isn't grim..but it sure is going to be a bumpy ride.
Well, I'm glad to hear the dangers of skin contact aren't as bad as I'd imagined. I get the stuff on my fingers all the time, but never more then a drop or two. I wasn't sure what would happen if I came in contact with larger amounts. I was worried that if I dropped a bottle in the summer, everyone wearing shorts within a 5 foot radius would die.
As far as babies swallowing cartridges; I've thought about that as well. If e-cigs are approved, I'm sure there will be rules with regards to the size of carts, amount of nicotine, and them being sealed, in which case the child either can't swallow it, or if they do swallow it, the cartridge will pass through them without the seal being broken and the nicotine leaking out.
I'd have no problem in the future paying $3.00-$5.00 for a pack of e-cigs. (1 pack actually equalling one pack of smokes). And I view the cheapness of using e-liquid as being only temporary. The biggest reason I bought the e-liquid is because the carts were so crappy. I'd much rather just slap on a cart, then be dripping, refilling, etc, as long as the experience was the same.
Once my orders come, I'll have around 1100ml of liquid, so hopefully when/if a ban comes, I'll have enough to last me until they come up with some good solutions. It'd be awesome to go to the store, buy a pack of carts, and slap them on an e-cig that always works without all the worries and the bs.
As far as babies swallowing cartridges; I've thought about that as well. If e-cigs are approved, I'm sure there will be rules with regards to the size of carts, amount of nicotine, and them being sealed, in which case the child either can't swallow it, or if they do swallow it, the cartridge will pass through them without the seal being broken and the nicotine leaking out.
I'd have no problem in the future paying $3.00-$5.00 for a pack of e-cigs. (1 pack actually equalling one pack of smokes). And I view the cheapness of using e-liquid as being only temporary. The biggest reason I bought the e-liquid is because the carts were so crappy. I'd much rather just slap on a cart, then be dripping, refilling, etc, as long as the experience was the same.
Once my orders come, I'll have around 1100ml of liquid, so hopefully when/if a ban comes, I'll have enough to last me until they come up with some good solutions. It'd be awesome to go to the store, buy a pack of carts, and slap them on an e-cig that always works without all the worries and the bs.
Hi Kate,
I value your input here but I can't say I agree with allowing people to become human guinea pigs in testing a new product. As much as we enjoy our new smoking alternative we simply don't know the long term health affects. Odds are they're better than traditional cigarettes, but until more thorough scientific testing is done we simply don't know. E-cig manufacturers really dropped the ball by not having their product tested and proven safe before bringing it to market.
Mark
Hey, it's all good. We're having good debate. Sorry that I triggered a response.
I don't think the doors are closing, myself. I think there are people who really need to justify their jobs right now so they are taking hardline approaches to the situation. The FDA's involvement, I believe, is not about money...it's about a group of people showing the world that they are *needed* and making a case to keep their current employment.
I see this every day at work...somebody referring to rules and regulations to ensure management sees their position as important. There's really nothing *wrong* with doing so...but we all need to recognized these closing doors as what they are....and that's people fearing they will lose their income and can no longer pay their mortgage.
This depression we are seeing...it's being amplified by people covering their own asses. The removal of e-cigs is somebody worrying that *somebody* will state that letting e-cigs in the country is a lack of them doing their job. So, the FDA is reacting by taking a single stance.
It'll pass. All things will pass. In the words of Samwise the Brave from Lord of the Rings:
Frodo: I can't do this, Sam.
Sam: I know. It's all wrong. By rights we shouldn't even be here. But we are. It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger, they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it's only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something, even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back, only they didn't. They kept going. Because they were holding on to something.
Frodo: What are we holding onto, Sam?
Sam: That there's some good in this world, Mr. Frodo... and it's worth fighting for.
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Hi Kate,
I don't claim to be a research scientist or the like, but I would imagine that it would be tested under controlled conditions, would include chemical and gas analisys. And probably involve animal testing.
Mark
Mark,
Do you think Corn Flakes went through this kind of testing?
We're not talking about a new chemical here...we're talking about an already tested chemical. And everybody who has purchased it is well aware of the possible side effects.
Not sure where the justification to pull off dozens of tests comes into play...
Hi DisMan,
Although I don't have a box of Cornflakes handy I'm pretty confident in stating that more than corn is listed under its ingredients. There are probably such items as perservatives, artificial agents, colouring, ect... Which have required government testing.
There have been no long term studies that I am aware of that show the long term health affects of inhaling Proplyne Glycol, e-liquids primary ingredient. Until professional studies are conducted we are all in the dark.
Mark
Well I suppose I think somebody has to test it and I'd rather do that than some poor lab animal that hasn't got any decent quality of life. This is my choice and I take responsibility for my vices. I'd like to be as educated about it as possible and make informed decisions but I don't want someone else to do this stage of the testing for me, I'm enjoying it too much.
I hate the way we use other animals and cause suffering for our own vices and vanity, it's not right. Medical treatments might have a different argument but I don't see that a non essential habit has the same justifications.
I hate the way we use other animals and cause suffering for our own vices and vanity, it's not right. Medical treatments might have a different argument but I don't see that a non essential habit has the same justifications.
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