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Why shouldn't the FDA interfere?

Discussion in 'Law and the E-Cigarette' started by Bellinghamster, Mar 10, 2009.

What requirements should the FDA put on e-liquid?

  1. Childproof caps

  2. Prominent poison warnings on label

  3. Ingredient listings on label

  4. 3rd party analysis results available

  5. Batch testing performed and certified

  6. Restriction of sale to minors

  7. Expiration date on label

  8. Manufacturer listed on label

  9. pH level listed on label

  10. Nicotine concentration in standardized format [mg/ml] listed on label

  11. Safety pamphlet in box (dosing, interaction, OD treatment info)

  12. None at all

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  1. Bellinghamster

    Bellinghamster Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 20, 2008
    Bellingham, WA USA
    Every time a new thread gets started about the involvement of the FDA with e-cigs, I wonder if that would be such a bad thing? Initially, yes - it's gonna suck. Their first act will be a ban of the import and sale all known e-cigs and nicotine liquids. Who can blame them?

    What we do as a practice today is indefensible from a health standpoint. It's a sad commentary on our addiction that we will gladly cling to unregulated, poisonous liquid to satisfy our cravings. Every day I read these forums for news of the ban, tips on better devices, the occasional LOL, and to see if anyone died yet.

    Morbid? Maybe. But there is no guaranty that what is "supposed" to be in that little bottle you're holding is what's actually in there. It could contain any number of industrial contaminants along with our beloved nicotine. How do you know the nicotine concentration is correct and listed accurately? Some will argue that the free market will convince the manufacturers to put out quality product. Has that been our experience with the devices? Quality control has been pretty sparse with the hardware IMHO, why do we assume the part we're actually ingesting is any more tightly controlled? The free market only works when there are consequences for unethical behavior. When somebody finally dies from this [be it overdose, contaminants, or long-term effects], who will you sue? What will your family's recourse be? Will they quietly accept that you chose gamble with your health? That you made a choice to enjoy nicotine in what you thought was a responsible way, and due to irresponsibility of a third party now you're dead?

    Obviously, we accept a level of risk. We have to. There is no long term study of e-smoking as it hasn’t been around long enough. All I'm asking is this: Would some level of government oversight to ensure what's in the bottle is what we expect be so bad? Would you purchase prescription drugs from a foreign country? Possibly you would, if the price was right. If they showed up in a Ziploc bag with a handwritten label calling it "Perk-O-Set, Xmg", would you take them? Maybe as a last resort… but is it smart?

    I thank the suppliers here who do batch testing, and I'm peripherally aware of the movements to get some proper testing done. We've also seen some real efforts to improve safety through packaging [ingredient listings, childproof caps, etc], which also helps a great deal. In the end though, it's the fox guarding the henhouse and there needs to be an independent body regulating this stuff if it is ever going to survive once exposed to the light of day. I don’t know if that should be the FDA… but somebody needs to do it.

    You can argure harm reduction all day long. It seems intuitive enough, knowing what we do about analogs. No harm reduction claim can be proven until we have some consistent and regulated products however. Until we plug that leak in the arguement, it's all just talk.

    The ban will come, I just hope that those that produce/distribute these things take the appropriate actions to come to an agreement with government similar to alcohol purveyors. Regulate and tax, don’t make everything enjoyable illegal.

    Cigarettes are BAD, but I believe I have the right to purchase and use them, if I'm informed of the risks. We all trade safety for pleasure, but we should just be aware of what we're trading. I have no intention of quitting e-smoking, but every day I wonder if I'll read that it wasn't so safe after all...

    Sorry for rambling...
  2. surbitonPete

    surbitonPete Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 25, 2009
    North Yorkshire UK
    I think we would all be very glad if people like the FDA were to do the job of ensuring some kind of standards were placed on the E-liquid.....but unfortunately we know they will be far more likely to do everything in their power to ban it....and that's it....end of story.
  3. Bellinghamster

    Bellinghamster Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 20, 2008
    Bellingham, WA USA
    I know, I know... I'm mostly venting. In real life a ban will probably come down and we'll never see them sold legitimately again. But seriously, there are days I question the sanity of using these things... :)
  4. surbitonPete

    surbitonPete Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 25, 2009
    North Yorkshire UK
    It does seem a bit crazy that we are all happily doing this when we know very well the Chinese hardly care a thing about health and safety, certainly not ours...but it's also almost impossible to believe there is any chance of it being worse than tobbaco.....(although I do sometimes wonder when I get some of those awful burnt tastes from the atomizer materials!) I only know that in two months of vaping I can tell my health has improved.
  5. bishop

    bishop Full Member

    Feb 27, 2009
    columbia sc

    sorry but I cant help to put my 2c out on this one.

    You say it wouldn't be bad for them to get involved because you question the sanity of using these devices and the fluid.........

    I don't believe you were voted the spokesman for the e smoking community worldwide and If its a problem you are dealing with in your own mind YOU should step away from using them and continue your happy like without them.

    The rest of us however, still have the right to use them as freely as the analog users can use theirs, and drinkers can still partake in their favorite beverage.

    Calling for a ban on an item because it doesn't fit into someones particular description of sanity or preference is just another wonderful step to this country becoming a socialist nation.

    Eventually the FDA WILL take some kind of action against the importing and I assure you they will be driven by Big Tobacco fearing the replacement of their product thanks to the new taxes driving more smokers to find a cheaper way to get saisfaction.

    Regardless of what they decide we have the knowledge to build our own and make our own liquid. Let them decide what they want, they only have so much control
  6. surbitonPete

    surbitonPete Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 25, 2009
    North Yorkshire UK
    Bishop you seem to have misunderstood Bellinghamster he isn't calling for a ban at all.
  7. Bellinghamster

    Bellinghamster Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 20, 2008
    Bellingham, WA USA
    I knew I would prolly hit a nerve with that post, and Bishop, Pete is right, I'm not calling for a ban. I think it can be done better is all.

    I'm e-smoking right now with no intention of quitting, regardless of a ban. I'm just putting my concerns/hopes/dreams out there, disagree if you will :)

    And no I'm no spokesman, just one guy who would REALLY like to know what he's doing to himself...
  8. PTJD

    PTJD Vaping At FL370 Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 20, 2008
    Malaga, Spain

    Agreed! Misunderstood.
  9. surbitonPete

    surbitonPete Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 25, 2009
    North Yorkshire UK
    I am afraid you won't be able to 'really' know what you are doing to yourself...this is something new....and it's only many years of people vapouring that will give an answer to that question....even the scientists can only give a best guess.
  10. bishop

    bishop Full Member

    Feb 27, 2009
    columbia sc
    i stand corrected and apologize:)
    I just tend to go into rant mood at the thought of other people making decisions for me about what i can and cannot do to myself of my own free will.

    I believe the government has a job to protect the citizens but I don't think they should have the right to control our daily habits as long as the habits don't hurt others.

    most people dont understand that politics rule what is banned and what isn't, lobbyists that contribute money control markets to their favor, this isn't how laws are supposed to be passed but sadly the corrupt polliticians will never change that.
  11. Bellinghamster

    Bellinghamster Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 20, 2008
    Bellingham, WA USA
    While we might not know the long term effect, I don't think it's unreasonable to know what we're ingesting. Then we take the calculated risk.

    As to government's role in protecting us and others, I think it gets carried WAY too far most of the time. I value personal liberty above all. I submit that government DOES have a role in making sure that we are protected from mislabeled or misleading products.

    We should have the Right To Vape, but we should know what we're vaping for our own safety...
  12. ChadmanMn

    ChadmanMn Full Member

    Feb 28, 2009
    Apple Valley, MN
    It would be nice if there was a catch-all rule that manufacturers could conform with until further testing can be done. You would think that some kind of disclaimer should cover this for now, but we all know that govt's are rarely satisfied with a logical approach like I'm suggesting.
  13. bishop

    bishop Full Member

    Feb 27, 2009
    columbia sc
    the US government is famous for tossing grant money around like its confetti, I'm curious if anyone has applied for a grant to test eciggs and do a study on either usage, habits, or content
  14. surbitonPete

    surbitonPete Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 25, 2009
    North Yorkshire UK
    I am with you there Bishop......I am so fed up with governments trying to control my every waking hour....give me advice and let me make my own decisions ....stupid or not.
  15. Walrus

    Walrus Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 3, 2009
    Baton Rouge, LA

    I'd recommend using TW"s liquids then... there's a full run-down of the ingredients on the bottle.
  16. Bellinghamster

    Bellinghamster Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 20, 2008
    Bellingham, WA USA
    I do (among others), but who is validating those listed ingredients? Where is the testing and oversight? I'm not saying anything bad about TW, they are front-runners in the safety game and A+ in my book. I just think independent review is the only rational way to acceptance. It protects both us and them.
  17. strayling

    strayling Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 25, 2009
    Seattle, USA
    But do you believe them? I'm all for the FDA simply enforcing purity standards; my worry is that they'll bow to pressure from people who want to ban vaping because they personally don't like the idea of others doing it.
  18. surbitonPete

    surbitonPete Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 25, 2009
    North Yorkshire UK
    That's the trouble with no enforcable quality control..the Chinese could start making some batches with almost anything.
  19. soylantgreen

    soylantgreen Full Member

    Feb 24, 2009
    FDA can't even keep salmonella out of peanutbutter, I wouldn't want them regulating e-cigs.

    I'm also betting that the big tobacco and pharma lobbyists will have no impact on FDAs decision to ban whatsoever.
  20. Calaban

    Calaban Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 17, 2009
    Newmarket, NH USA

    Your original post was very well thought out and expressed, and I agree 100%.

    I too have concerns about the long term effects of vaping and I wish there were some standards in place. Eventually I think there will be, but it will take an all out ban, then some lawsuits, then some testing and regulating etc.

    The one thing that keeps me from worrying too much about the health effects of vaping is this:

    I smoked analogs for 25 years. I was a heavy smoker for the last 15-20 of those years. In the last 10 years I have FELT physically terrible from smoking....terrible to the point that I was convinced I has cancer or some other horrible disease. I was living in fear every day. It was a terrible existence.

    Now that I have started vaping, I have not smoked an analog in 2 weeks, and I actually FEEL the difference. My horrible smokers cough is pretty much gone and I'm not getting the chest pains I dealt with for so many years. I don't get winded walking from my car to my house. I am happier, not scared all the time, and I just feel so much healthier.

    I know that these reasons aren't scientific, but they are enough to give me a damn good gut feeling about vaping.

    I definitely agree that we need standards of safety across the board though.

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