Why Vapers are getting a BAD NAME.

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zoiDman

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I am not under the impression that we are involved in any negotiations.
As far as I'm concerned this is a fight.

If you Don't Think that there are People who are Actively working with Policy Makers and are Negotiating to Amend Existing and Future Policy, than you are Mistaken.

If you perceive where we are as a Fight, and that there is No Room for Compromise, I can Respect that.

But I think if you looked at it Historically, you would see that More can be Accomplished by working with People than Apposing them 100%

All or Noting is Just That. All or Nothing. And Everyone knows that we Aren't going to Get ALL. So that Leaves the Alternative.
 

Jay-dub

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I'm choosing not to look at this in black and white. I find it too simplistic and naive. If you get a neighbor who does whatever they want on their property, and it drags down property value - that's their right? You have no right to protect the value of your home? What about when devalued property starts to effect tax revenue and infrastructure becomes neglected - still the right of the land owner to do with their property what thy will? What if the loss of tax revenue reaches a point that the school district, and your child, suffers diminished resources and potential - still the right of that property owner to do with their property what they choose? I'm sure if you're ideologically inclined gubment = bad. No one here is that ideological... right?

What happened to that good ol' boy thing where it's my property my rules?

It may be frustrating to you, but I'm going to have to refer to my first sentence, in the statement you quoted, and I highlighted in bold. I don't think it's realistic to compare how the preferences of an individual effect a chosen activity to how the preferences of an individual effect a whole community. If a property owner doesn't want vaping on their property, then what's the cost other than a vapist not getting their way? If a property owner decides to farm maggots and leave cars on cinder blocks in the front yard; it's a drag on the whole community.

Your sister's not going to get anywhere without attending a District/School Board Meeting and addressing her issues publicly. She can attend those for free and all statements made will be part of public record. It wouldn't hurt to call a local reporter to see if they would attend as well. If that doesn't get the issue resolved there's county and state Boards of Education. Usually, suing a school board is lucrative enough for lawyers to offer competitive service agreements. But, I doubt any lawyer, or ACLU type organization, is going to do a lot if there isn't a clear record of the issue being pushed by the potential client. That's why I hope she's gone to several meetings and gotten transcripts.
 
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DC2

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If you Don't Think that there are People who are Actively working with Policy Makers and are Negotiating to Amend Existing and Future Policy, than you are Mistaken.

If you perceive where we are as a Fight, and that there is No Room for Compromise, I can Respect that.

But I think if you looked at it Historically, you would see that More can be Accomplished by working with People than Apposing them 100%

All or Noting is Just That. All or Nothing. And Everyone knows that we Aren't going to Get ALL. So that Leaves the Alternative.
I'll send you a PM.
 

Myk

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I am not under the impression that we are involved in any negotiations.
As far as I'm concerned this is a fight.

Exactly. "Nothing about us without us" is not being used here.



If you Don't Think that there are People who are Actively working with Policy Makers and are Negotiating to Amend Existing and Future Policy, than you are Mistaken.

If you perceive where we are as a Fight, and that there is No Room for Compromise, I can Respect that.

But I think if you looked at it Historically, you would see that More can be Accomplished by working with People than Apposing them 100%

All or Noting is Just That. All or Nothing. And Everyone knows that we Aren't going to Get ALL. So that Leaves the Alternative.

You might want to get a little more active in what's going on. If vapers have people negotiating it's only because we fought to get that representation.
Do you know the only consumer representation in the FDA smoking section is an ANTZ who wants to ban everything including ecigs?


It may be frustrating to you, but I'm going to have to refer to my first sentence, in the statement you quoted, and I highlighted in bold. I don't think it's realistic to compare how the preferences of an individual effect a chosen activity to how the preferences of an individual effecting a whole community. If a property owner doesn't want vaping on their property, then what's the cost other than a vapist not getting their way? If a property owner decides to farm maggots and leave cars on cinder blocks in the front yard; it's a drag on the whole community.

Your sister's not going to get anywhere without attending a District/School Board Meeting and addressing her issues publicly. She can attend those for free and all statements made will be part of public record. It wouldn't hurt to call a local reporter to see if they would attend as well. If that doesn't get the issue resolved there's county and state Boards of Education. Usually, suing a school board is lucrative enough for lawyers to offer competitive service agreements. But, I doubt any lawyer, or ACLU type organization, is going to do a lot if there isn't a clear record of the issue being pushed by the potential client. That's why I hope she's gone to several meetings and gotten transcripts.


It may be frustrating to you but I'm going to refer to you previous sentence where you were telling about the good ol' boys who make all the rules for their property and if you tried to explain anything and work out a compromise there would be a fight.
I think it's perfectly realistic to expect you to hold the same line of thought throughout your conversation.

The kid who wasn't getting taught has a kid who's old enough to have a kid now.
The ACLU may have misunderstood it was a disability case but they were not misunderstood saying there is no right to a public education. You do not have a right to dip your hands into my pockets.
 

Jay-dub

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It may be frustrating to you but I'm going to refer to you previous sentence where you were telling about the good ol' boys who make all the rules for their property and if you tried to explain anything and work out a compromise there would be a fight.
I think it's perfectly realistic to expect you to hold the same line of thought throughout your conversation.


You're right. There's no difference. The world is black and white. People should be afforded the right to do what they choose with and on their own property - except when it comes to telling vapists what to do...

One answer for one situation should be the same answer for another situation? That way it will be linear? So, if a property owner isn't allowed to blight a community, an individual has no right to wear old clothes? Because property owners can't blight a community, you should be able to vape on their property regardless of what they say? Please, instruct me on how to deal with two different situations while applying the "same line of thought" to both.
 
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Jman8

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It may be frustrating to you, but I'm going to have to refer to my first sentence, in the statement you quoted, and I highlighted in bold. I don't think it's realistic to compare how the preferences of an individual effect a chosen activity to how the preferences of an individual effecting a whole community. If a property owner doesn't want vaping on their property, then what's the cost other than a vapist not getting their way?

Your first couple of sentences from before read: I'm choosing not to look at this in black and white. I find it too simplistic and naive.

IMO, your loaded question at the end of the quote above reads as too simplistic and naive.

Given the political fight and reality, I feel the proper response is to ask or determine why the property owner doesn't want vaping on their property. And to be clear, in this thread we are discussing the type of property that is privately owned but that invites people from the public into its establishment to engage in some sort of business. Thus, this is not like a place that puts up a No Trespassing sign.

A No Trespass sign is a clear indication that you just entered a place that is engaged in black and white thinking.

Likewise, a "no vaping" policy is another indication that you just entered a place that is plausibly engaged in black and white thinking. Perhaps you ask, find out why, and learn that it doesn't appear so black and white, and that there is some flexibility. Or perhaps you learn that the real reason amounts to ignorance (looks like smoking, therefore must be treated as such) or arrogance (because I said no vaping, end of discussion).

And to this, I say a little political/civil disobedience is called for. The form of that disobedience will vary from individual to individual. Some may feel best way for them, and only way, is to go home, write a letter to congressperson or lawyer, or whomever and talk about vaping, talk about what eCigs really are and attempt to challenge this any any private property owner who invites people into their business to consider changing their policy. Who knows, maybe talking about what eCigs are will work to convince both the public and decision makers that eCigs could be allowed some day in a public spot.

Whereas the vape everywhere position while exercising a sense of civil disobedience provides a few things, all of which make public vaping currently a gray area. Vape everywhere is the gray position for the following reasons:

1. Ever since first vaper vaped in public, no one knew precisely what that exhaled vapor entailed, and so this lack of certainty, with what the public is being exposed to, makes it gray. It's not "you should vape everywhere in public" for that would be a black and white scenario. Instead, it is that you can and that you and most people may not know precisely what is in that vapor and therefore what undue harm you might be contributing to. This currently plays out in all places, even where vaping has been green lighted. Early science may be providing vaping community with good idea of harmfulness (or lack thereof), but long term science is still not known.

2. I believe the most important consideration is due to the 5+ years of collective user experience and abundance of anecdotal evidence. It is gray because even if policies are in place that say not to, you still can and not get caught, or not be detected as a person who vaped in the establishment. If it were vape openly everywhere but just don't be seen when you do, then chances are very good with type of substance/product we are talking about that no one would ever know you did. Many eLiquids when vaped produce no odor and no vapor that I've exhaled has lingered for more than a few seconds.

3. The vape everywhere position, as I and many others use it, comes with slight stipulation of "openly and with respect." This presumes that you are doing it in place where others could see you exhaling vapor and possibly come into brief contact with that vapor. Yet, the position isn't saying, vape everywhere and seek people out to blow vapor in their faces. That would be openly vaping with disrespect. But not everyone shares the exact same idea of what it means to act respectfully in public. Nor is there a clear cut consensus on the general idea of what that respect means. With exhaled vapor, that becomes a little more gray as one person may say okay if I am in crowded place as long as you don't intentionally blow it anyone's face, and another may say it is not okay as long as you are anywhere within 10 meters of me, even if we are outside. Vape within that 10 meters, and you are being highly disrespectful, or so someone may claim.

Moreover, the largest reason why it is gray is because of political reality within historical context. It used to be, say in 1980, that you could smoke everywhere. Name a public place, any public place, and chances are you could smoke there. Hospitals, movie theater lobbies, schools (teacher lounges) all open for public smoking. I'm thinking if person in 1980 who is willing to be reasonable and good citizen concedes on one of those places as not suitable place for smoking, that they'd have vastly different thoughts on the matter when they realize that 20 years later they'd live in a world where smoking anywhere indoors is illegal. So illegal and shamed that even smoking outdoors may get you in trouble with the law or at very least shamed by people who will ever have to enter the space that you dared smoke in. The slope from top of the hill where you could smoke everywhere to the very slippery lower plateau where traditional cigarettes aren't banned, but you no longer are remotely respected for your use of them, regardless of how you use them, is the historical context that eCigs have popped up on. That they are very clearly not smoke is precisely what makes them gray. Even if vapor was magically proven harmless, heck even if secondhand vapor were proven to be a health benefit to the public, there would still be enough venom leftover from the "smoke nowhere" gang, that says this is that gray of an issue. Doesn't matter the level of harm involved with eCigs. Really really really doesn't matter at all. It looks like smoking, we now live in a world where that is taboo, and therefore based on appearances alone, it is reason enough to ban it's use everywhere possible.

Or so says the citizen engaged in black and white thinking.
Or the naive vaper who is inclined to go in that direction thinking a fair and reasonable compromise will be reached someday.
Just give it 20 years.
 

DC2

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Here's the deal...

I will respect property owners and their right to decide what they wish to allow on their property.
If they don't want any vaping, I will ask why and hope to educate.

If they still say no, then I will take my money elsehwere.

On government property, I am not going to cooperate in any way.
That is public property, and no public voting on this issue has taken place in most places from what I can see.

They just decide to say no, and screw anyone that has a different opinion.

They can arrest me, taser me, or whatever.
I'm not going to comply willingly.

But that is a last resort for me at this time, as I can stealth vape ANYWHERE I want without anyone ever knowing.
I've never in over four years been discovered to be doing so.

And that includes movie theaters, restaurants, airplanes, and anywhere else.
It basically includes everywhere and anywhere.

I am, however, willing to apply this approach of non-compliance to outdoor vaping, such as public parks and beaches.
But indoors, I am not going to go there at this time.

Outdoors, well, I am going to lift my middle finger.
And I'm going to put it in the faces of anyone who tells me I should not be vaping there.

If it's a small locality, like a County Board of Health or City Council in Idaho or Minnesota that's one thing.
Those folks are probably in the dark, and influenced HEAVILY by the ANTZ that bring these proposals to them for enactment.

If it's a large locality, like Los Angeles, Chicago, or New York city councils...
Well they are almost certainly paid for their votes, which is why those outcomes are pre-determined and we can't make a dent in them.

Fight fire with fire is coming...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...scussion/526696-its-time-fight-fire-fire.html

Bet on it.
 

Jman8

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Here's the deal...

I will respect property owners and their right to decide what they wish to allow on their property.
If they don't want any vaping, I will ask why and hope to educate.

If they still say no, then I will take my money elsehwere.

Pretty much my stand from the vape everywhere position.

As you went on to mention stealth vaping (for governmental property), I would say that is only difference. I'd actually be more concerned with repercussions on government property than on private, especially as I too would adopt the notion of "willing to go elsewhere to do business."

It's not like the answer to "why not allow vaping" can't plausibly have a rational response. It's just that so far, I have either not seen/heard it, or more likely that ANTZ influence has permeated the culture and conditioned the responses.

I generally do not vape in a place that has told me it is not okay. But I also do not completely restrict myself from doing it and have 2+ years experience of vaping in isolated areas of these places and never ever being noticed. I can't even imagine how someone would notice it. Yeah, it's that kind of activity.
 

Myk

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Baldr

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Business owners don't want to deal with it. That's it. Educate them all you want, but they don't want the hassle.

Almost every day, I have one meal in a restaurant. Every time I do that, I vape after my meal. Sometimes before, depending on "stuff".

Several times a week I go dancing and honky-tonk country bars. Every time I do that, I vape while I'm there.

None of these places mind. None of them have rules against vaping. None of them tell me to stop.

But I come on ECF and here you are saying "They don't want it, they don't want to deal with it".

If you were correct, they would make a rule about it. If there were a sign on the door saying "No vaping allowed" or "no using e-cigs" or anything similar, I would comply. I may simply take my business elsewhere, but I would follow their rule. But none of them are actually doing that.

My actual experience is that business owners know what it is, and they don't care. It isn't hurting them, and since it doesn't smell like smoke, nobody is complaining.

This is something I find very odd. I vape in public, every day, and nobody minds at all. I come on ECF, a website/forum dedicated to vaping, and there are always people .....ing and crying about it.
 

Jay-dub

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Your first couple of sentences from before read: I'm choosing not to look at this in black and white. I find it too simplistic and naive.

IMO, your loaded question at the end of the quote above reads as too simplistic and naive.

A business owner would have different motivations than a private property owner. Maybe I could be more clear next time.

Given the political fight and reality, I feel the proper response is to ask or determine why the property owner doesn't want vaping on their property. And to be clear, in this thread we are discussing the type of property that is privately owned but that invites people from the public into its establishment to engage in some sort of business. Thus, this is not like a place that puts up a No Trespassing sign.

Oh, beat me to it.

A No Trespass sign is a clear indication that you just entered a place that is engaged in black and white thinking.

Likewise, a "no vaping" policy is another indication that you just entered a place that is plausibly engaged in black and white thinking. Perhaps you ask, find out why, and learn that it doesn't appear so black and white, and that there is some flexibility. Or perhaps you learn that the real reason amounts to ignorance (looks like smoking, therefore must be treated as such) or arrogance (because I said no vaping, end of discussion).

I agree you may talk them into "experimenting" with policy depending on the owner or franchisee. They can take the time out of their schedule to monitor the effect. It would help if enough people were kindly inquiring to vape on the premise that it was already causing time management issues. If the effect is shown to be at least neutral on profits, the customer base or overall customer relations it may become standard practice to pay no mind to vaping. To some extent this hoopla and craze over vaping will run it's course and society will find a new fixation to judge or be afraid of. It's too early to tell but we're used to all kinds of tech that our grandparents or great-grandparents would find insane.


And to this, I say a little political/civil disobedience is called for. The form of that disobedience will vary from individual to individual. Some may feel best way for them, and only way, is to go home, write a letter to congressperson or lawyer, or whomever and talk about vaping, talk about what eCigs really are and attempt to challenge this any any private property owner who invites people into their business to consider changing their policy. Who knows, maybe talking about what eCigs are will work to convince both the public and decision makers that eCigs could be allowed some day in a public spot.

Whereas the vape everywhere position while exercising a sense of civil disobedience provides a few things, all of which make public vaping currently a gray area. Vape everywhere is the gray position for the following reasons:

1. Ever since first vaper vaped in public, no one knew precisely what that exhaled vapor entailed, and so this lack of certainty, with what the public is being exposed to, makes it gray. It's not "you should vape everywhere in public" for that would be a black and white scenario. Instead, it is that you can and that you and most people may not know precisely what is in that vapor and therefore what undue harm you might be contributing to. This currently plays out in all places, even where vaping has been green lighted. Early science may be providing vaping community with good idea of harmfulness (or lack thereof), but long term science is still not known.

2. I believe the most important consideration is due to the 5+ years of collective user experience and abundance of anecdotal evidence. It is gray because even if policies are in place that say not to, you still can and not get caught, or not be detected as a person who vaped in the establishment. If it were vape openly everywhere but just don't be seen when you do, then chances are very good with type of substance/product we are talking about that no one would ever know you did. Many eLiquids when vaped produce no odor and no vapor that I've exhaled has lingered for more than a few seconds.

3. The vape everywhere position, as I and many others use it, comes with slight stipulation of "openly and with respect." This presumes that you are doing it in place where others could see you exhaling vapor and possibly come into brief contact with that vapor. Yet, the position isn't saying, vape everywhere and seek people out to blow vapor in their faces. That would be openly vaping with disrespect. But not everyone shares the exact same idea of what it means to act respectfully in public. Nor is there a clear cut consensus on the general idea of what that respect means. With exhaled vapor, that becomes a little more gray as one person may say okay if I am in crowded place as long as you don't intentionally blow it anyone's face, and another may say it is not okay as long as you are anywhere within 10 meters of me, even if we are outside. Vape within that 10 meters, and you are being highly disrespectful, or so someone may claim.

Moreover, the largest reason why it is gray is because of political reality within historical context. It used to be, say in 1980, that you could smoke everywhere. Name a public place, any public place, and chances are you could smoke there. Hospitals, movie theater lobbies, schools (teacher lounges) all open for public smoking. I'm thinking if person in 1980 who is willing to be reasonable and good citizen concedes on one of those places as not suitable place for smoking, that they'd have vastly different thoughts on the matter when they realize that 20 years later they'd live in a world where smoking anywhere indoors is illegal. So illegal and shamed that even smoking outdoors may get you in trouble with the law or at very least shamed by people who will ever have to enter the space that you dared smoke in. The slope from top of the hill where you could smoke everywhere to the very slippery lower plateau where traditional cigarettes aren't banned, but you no longer are remotely respected for your use of them, regardless of how you use them, is the historical context that eCigs have popped up on. That they are very clearly not smoke is precisely what makes them gray. Even if vapor was magically proven harmless, heck even if secondhand vapor were proven to be a health benefit to the public, there would still be enough venom leftover from the "smoke nowhere" gang, that says this is that gray of an issue. Doesn't matter the level of harm involved with eCigs. Really really really doesn't matter at all. It looks like smoking, we now live in a world where that is taboo, and therefore based on appearances alone, it is reason enough to ban it's use everywhere possible.

Or so says the citizen engaged in black and white thinking.
Or the naive vaper who is inclined to go in that direction thinking a fair and reasonable compromise will be reached someday.
Just give it 20 years.

Why are you even engaging if you believe it's naive to think a fair and reasonable compromise will be reached one day? Why take the time to argue the merits of your approach?
 
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zoiDman

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...

You might want to get a little more active in what's going on. If vapers have people negotiating it's only because we fought to get that representation.
Do you know the only consumer representation in the FDA smoking section is an ANTZ who wants to ban everything including ecigs?

...

I'll keep that Under Advisement. LOL

BTW - Just because you Might Not see something, do you Really believe that it Can't or Isn't Happening?
 

Jman8

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Why are you even engaging if you believe it's naive to think a fair and reasonable compromise will be reached one day? Why take the time to argue the merits of your approach?

Cause I like to think among vapers that the naive and simplistic arguments wouldn't fly so easily. As in, "don't vape now in public, cause one day everyone's mind will change on this, and that'll be the day when we can openly vape, with respect."

No, today is the day we can openly vape, with respect, indoors in public places. An ANTZ person may say otherwise, or influence a property owner to decide otherwise. Still, the reality is that today is that day to vape openly, with respect to others in indoor public places. And if a business owner says no, find out real reason as to why that decision was made. Now is the best time we have for influencing actual change that equals allowance.
 

Jay-dub

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Cause I like to think among vapers that the naive and simplistic arguments wouldn't fly so easily. As in, "don't vape now in public, cause one day everyone's mind will change on this, and that'll be the day when we can openly vape, with respect."

No, today is the day we can openly vape, with respect, indoors in public places. An ANTZ person may say otherwise, or influence a property owner to decide otherwise. Still, the reality is that today is that day to vape openly, with respect to others in indoor public places. And if a business owner says no, find out real reason as to why that decision was made. Now is the best time we have for influencing actual change that equals allowance.

Very good. I don't recall ever saying "don't vape in public". I have argued against being too zealous, too cavalier, and too insistent. But don't completely dismiss the fact that society tends to be hostile to new things/things it doesn't understand. Even worse, most people don't care enough to put forth the effort to gain an understanding. Exposure and time generally result in understanding, or at least desensitization to a drum beat of fearful scenarios that never come to fruition. More people will have friends or family that vape. More kids of voting age will have seen first hand what vaping has done for a smoker in the family etc... I wasn't trying to make the argument to wait. I was trying to state that everyone can get caught up in the moment and regardless of what we do, there is a natural course that takes time for new technology to permeate a culture and become the norm. I remember when the internet first came on line. Many of the older folks were scared of it. They didn't know why - it was just something they were unfamiliar with. Sometimes, people can't be reasoned with until they're ready to be reasonable.

I'd rather try to get approval in venues like sporting events, theaters, auditoriums, concerts, sit-down restaurants, grocery and other stores etc... Places like gas stations and fast food franchises are meaningless. Seriously, you can put down your PV, or your cell phone, or any other electronic distraction, long enough to run in and out of such an establishment. Shouldn't be law against it, but I'd think your a douche. Just like I think calling people zealots or telling them they're brainwashed is just douchey enough to convince someone to dislike vapists. I don't think there should be a law against it...
 
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Jman8

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Very good. I don't recall ever saying "don't vape in public".

Hmmm, I'm not sure about this. Is there an indoor public place that you would advocate for not vaping in? If yes, then I can recall you saying "don't vape in public. And as I've already read your full reply before typing this sentence, then I believe there is at least one example (in your post) where you are saying don't vape in public, or you are a douche.

To counter what I already anticipate your response to be, yes you specified a type of indoor place, but didn't specify all that well what makes that bad, and another indoor place okay. IMO, the arguments I see you putting forth, given context of ANTZ all around us, is naive and too simplistic.

I have argued against being too zealous, too cavalier, and too insistent. But don't completely dismiss the fact that society tends to be hostile to new things/things it doesn't understand. Even worse, most people don't care enough to put forth the effort to gain an understanding. Exposure and time generally result in understanding, or at least desensitization to a drum beat of fearful scenarios that never come to fruition. More people will have friends or family that vape.

Compelled to cut you off at this point as this thread is about usage, and where these friends and family will be allowed, or even encouraged to vape. L.A. just passed city wide ban saying can't even vape outdoors in certain locations. That doesn't bode well for the vaper's friends and family who are likely to show up too zealous and too insistent on where this person cannot vape. That is the discussion at heart of threads like these.

Haven't seen a vaper yet in any of these threads that says, "of course we shouldn't be vaping outdoors in those places where people can't smoke." I reckon that's because to all (or super duper majority of) vapers, the outdoors ban is very extreme, and very challenging to understand where it is coming from if person is engaged in rational discussion about social norms, harm and vaping. But just think, we might someday soon have vapers claiming that only a douche would dare to vape on a public beach, with, OMG, kids present.

You say it is about time and exposure. Won't disagree on the exposure part, though I spin that clearly to mean public being exposed to vaping in public. Cause way things are going with bans, that exposure thing is being cut off, and thus makes half your point moot. The other half, time, is one that I think it is entirely reasonable to think it'll work against us, especially if exposure is cut down through usage bans. Information flows very fast these days compared to say 1990 when internet was first getting off the ground. Nowadays, a person would take all of 1 day to find out both sides of political issue around eCigs and possibly be as informed as anyone reading this thread. While internet was once a huge technological basis of change for humanity (obviously much larger than eCig issue), it didn't have the strong, vocal opposition that eCigs have. Those people aren't waiting another 10 years to get their message out, nor utilize mass deception to make the points that will, for their hopes, lead to decimating the industry and banning eCigs as much as humanly possible.

Please find me another example that matches with this scenario; as "people scared of change" doesn't work for eCigs. What people are possibly scared by is the ANTZ propaganda, and I'm sure all vapers encounter folks who tell them, "I heard those things explode," or "I heard they are just as bad as smoking," or umpteen other lies intended to dissuade the public into not investigating 2 sides of the issue, as this device is simply bad bad bad, end of story, thanks for playing.

If we are being real, that's what we are actually up against when it comes to property owner considering the issue or already decided against allowing it. Don't need any more words for this person, they heard the "truth" and are going to err on side of caution. Exposure would help, but if no vaper is willing to engage in cavalier / sense of civil disobedience, then how will umpteen million people find their way to this mythological exposure sometime in the unknown future?

Right now, the only people vocally and/or strongly opposed to a vaper vaping in a doctor's waiting room is either government officials (of a certain political persuasion) or a few fellow vapers who certainly seem like they have had a little of their brain washed over by ANTZ.
 
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