wire wool?

[Doostin]

Nuck, I think that's the closest thing someone has found with similar properties to the atomizer mesh. Good find, I hope there's a way to shape or cut it to fit into carts! They'd probably last a good while!

The stainless steel hobby wire is also a very good idea. Surface tension may vary from liquid to liquid as long as it sticks, which is all you need to overcome gravity!

I'm going to try to find oil candle wick, and faucet screen this weekend and try that out and report back here.

 

[Lika]

I've appreciated your experiments and theories Terraphon, thanks. I'm sure a lot of others will learn from them too.

Sometimes the social skills of particular posters is lacking, please don't let them drive you away.

Yeah! What Kate said

After writing a very detailed post on this subject I decided to delete it. Figured it wasn't worth it to alienate a few select individuals. That and it served its purpose for me. However, sometimes things are better left unsaid.

Cheers to all the Professors and Students. Teamwork Baby!

 

[trog100]

this thread has had over 2000 reads in a relatively short time.. its helped put a few bums on seats.. people have found it entertaining enough to read.. some might have learnt something some might not..

Que Sera, Sera

trog

 

[exogenesis]

...and this forum is, apparently, just here to put butts in the seats and not...I don't know...educate people and try to enhance the community...I'm going to just bow out ...

Why?, I think nearly everyone appreciates your efforts,
please don't let a few negative posts put you off sharing your observations.

I don't think anyone was deliberately trying to antogonise you, were they?,
that would certainly be self-defeating.

 

[Di]

stay and play baby,

we is havin' sum fun isn't we

an we is learnin' ta be cleva !!

Di .......

 

[surbitonPete]

Trog wrote:
'in my book simply popping a cart in and trying to smoke it dry simply does not work... so i never do it.. life would be easier if it did work.. but once you accept it dosnt the problem goes away..'


It's funny you say that because, I never felt that you could get much life out of a cart and constant topping up was always necessary until recently when I tried the lady pipe.... in the first few days you could literally go for hours on one cart without topping up, but as time wore on, topping up became more and more necessary at regular intervals.

I'm guessing this must link with the fact that the atomiser after a few days use isn't as effective at heating up and drawing liquid out of the cart due to all the crud that builds up. So it is my feeling that the atomiser efficiency correlates directly with how well liquid is drawn out of the filler and thus how often you need to top up. Can anyone else compare efficiency of cart life when using a new ecig/new atomiser vs after say a week of use?

tim .....I find exactly the same thing.......I think the liquid is just being wasted because it can't vapourize it so well anymore....I also find I am running the batteries down quicker because I start having to do warm up puffs. All the problems seem to revolve around the atomizer's crud build up.

 

[surbitonPete]

Well, since those of us who are actually trying to get to the bottom of some of these issues are, apparently, idiots who can't tell their ....... from next Christmas and this forum is, apparently, just here to put butts in the seats and not...I don't know...educate people and try to enhance the community...I'm going to just bow out of this whole thing and let people come to their own conclusions.

I'll go ahead and do research and testing and engineering on my own...If anyone wants to know what I come up with drop me a PM...I'll be around just not in this thread.

Hey Terrapon...I always try to ignore any words that upset or offend me and carry on regardless......the problems with e-cigs may be pretty old hat to some people now.......but they were never solved. If they were solved it would be a simple case of following the advice we are given and everything would work perfectly ....end of story, nothing left to talk about. I sure want to hear about everything you are trying.

 

[Grandma Cas]

Hey Terrapon...I always try to ignore any words that upset or offend me and carry on regardless......the problems with e-cigs may be pretty old hat to some people now.......but they were never solved. If they were solved it would be a simple case of following the advice we are given and everything would work perfectly ....end of story, nothing left to talk about. I sure want to hear about everything you are trying.

Me too Terrapon, I've been following your work & reports with a great deal of interest.

 

[ZambucaLu]

I love reading this thread and keeping track of the new experiments! I for one hope you guys do find some answers....and continue to share your results with us

Lu

 

[smokindeuce]

Nuck, I think that's the closest thing someone has found with similar properties to the atomizer mesh. Good find, I hope there's a way to shape or cut it to fit into carts! They'd probably last a good while!

The stainless steel hobby wire is also a very good idea. Surface tension may vary from liquid to liquid as long as it sticks, which is all you need to overcome gravity!

I'm going to try to find oil candle wick, and faucet screen this weekend and try that out and report back here.

I have some volcano pads that I will test - as I've mentioned on another post, the only problem with them is that when you cut them up into a smaller shape, small pieces tend to break off which isn't ideal....

 

[Nuck]

I have some volcano pads that I will test - as I've mentioned on another post, the only problem with them is that when you cut them up into a smaller shape, small pieces tend to break off which isn't ideal....

Thanks for the heads up. I'll definitely put a filter material down the cart first to ensure metal shavings are not an issue. After a few days it'll be interesting to see if the filter material has collected anything.

Thanks again.

 

[Terraphon]

*sniffsniff*

Smells a lot better in here.

I'm baaaaaaaaaaack.

So here's the deal...I have some atomizers, I have some VG and I have a QUART of PG incoming.

When it gets here, I'ma do me some major testing

In the mean-time, though...

I have some results with VG...

1) It will leave residue when cooked off with distilled water...The hotter the source, the nastier the goop.

2) isopropanol takes it off VERY easily in small quantities. If it's to the point of creating chunklets, though, the iso has a hard time dealing with it.

3) I've done some testing with getting a crusty coil REALLY hot and then hitting it with Diflouroethane (which super-cools it)...Make sure you're wearing safety glasses if you try this...cold ... chemicals in the peeper don't feel good.

4) The above seemed to make a difference (which takes me back to the carbon / heat / cold / shatter it / RC it / rinse it / vape on! theory).

5) More to come

 

[TribbleTrouble]

I want to know if anyone has found a line on that wire mesh that they use in the atomizers. I can't believe how well my e-cigar is working since I put some of that mesh at the open end of the cart. It is truly amazing! I want to buy some more.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

I want to know if anyone a has found a line on that wire mesh that they use in the atomizers. I can't believe how well my e-cigar is working since I put some of that mesh at the open end of the cart. It is truly amazing! I want to buy some more.

Tribble--Glad to hear that a dud atomizer finally has some use now--enjoy--Sun

 

[kinabaloo]

Terraphon - happy you're back.

About the VG leaving a deposit: only when mixed with water?

When you get the PG it will be interesting to compare the two.

I didnt get a deposit from VG but I had no water in the mix (probably irrelevant) and the heating was very slow - over a minute for just a few drops. So I think Terraphone that you wrere heating a bigger amount - maybe a whole teaspoon? - and/or faster; right?

I suspect VG's viscosity is its downfall - it is too thick to evaporate before it starts to get burned. The hottest molecules, those nearest the coil, cannot get out through the thick liquid and start to burn, that is, degrade/decompose to carbon ultimately and some gasses, possibly noxious ones.

That's my idea. Why else would it leave a deposit? If heated to boiling point and then just simmered, not heated too much, it expect that it will simply all slowly evaporate.

So now we have a tentative explanation of what happens in the heating coil.

The amounts of juice on the coil are minute - BUT, the heat up time is very fast. So maybe deliberately slowing the heat up time to say 0.1-0.2 secs might help a lot reduce amount of deposits formed. A capacitor in parallel with the coil would help in this regard.

Incidentally, are Lithium and NIMH batteries faster at delivering a heavy load than alkaline batteries? In another thread someone said alkaline batteries were more atomiser friendly although higher in voltage (1.5 vs. 1.2v) but didnt know why. I suspect a too-fast heating of the heater coil is not good for the atomiser in direct mechanical stress through expansion, as well as suffering from fast heat deposits.

If we can test and hopefully demonstrate that slowing the flash-heating a bit (unnoticeable to the person vaping), solves or reduces the deposit problem, then this is big news

 

[Terraphon]

I've been using a torch to heat the VG so it's been heating pretty fast and yes...it will leave deposits in its pure state when heated rapidly.

I'm going to do another test though (that I just thought of). In the situation we're dealing with, the atomizer coil is in direct contact with the liquid. We've been heating a surface that is in contact with the liquid, however. As we (should) know, the liquid causes the heat to dissipate.

Here's what I'm going to do...

I'm going to heat a piece of metal (probably a nail...something dense that will hold heat) and then stick it directly in to a small quantity of VG while it's still red/orange hot (like the atomizers get) and see what transpires. I bet the liquid will flash evaporate at the contact point and leave behind solids on the metal.

I'll do the same thing with some uncut PG liquid (since I now have a BOAT-LOAD of it) and do a comparison of the results.

I'll TRY to get the tests on camera but I'm going to have to do all of this at my store so I may not be able to...we'll see.

edit : Also, we know that VG *does* degrade to CO / CO2 during rapid decomposition. I wish I had meters to test with...gah!

 

[kinabaloo]

Hi Terraphon,

The test with the metal nail or similar that you mention gives me an idea. Maybe try a heating element like arrangement : som wire wound around some wire wool. The materials will be different, but interested if the the increased surface area and the flash heating of the liquid inside tiny spaces would make the problem worse.

btw : notice any bad smell when the degradation of VG occurs?

 

[Terraphon]

Yes, there is a smell...rather similar to the bad taste I've experienced with a pen atomizer that was sent to me.

I'm still playing, though...Experiments are interesting but they take time and that's something I'm pretty short on the last several days.

 

[kinabaloo]

Hey, just glad you're ok Terraphon - was a bit worried re blowtorch and all !

This is really interesting work. I guess we need to take care to heat the sample without the gasses and combustion products of the torch being able to react with the juice, so that we can rule out that as the reason for deposits forming and the 'bad smell' (btw, that's interesting news - that there is indeed that familiar 'scent' being generated). It is looking like slowing down the heating of the juice a little could really help. Exciting times

Something I thought I wrote about before, but can't see now, so here goes, is: People report that running the atomisers hotter, with a higher voltage, seems better for the atomiser as well as providing better vapor production. So how do we square this with our findings on deposit formation? Well, there can be a way to encompass both i think. On the face of it, running hotter should give more deposits, or does it? A higher heat would be expected to a) make burning more likely, but b) also make evaporation more likely. So, it seems that the evaporation 'benefits' more from the higher heat than the burning; hence, a little counter-intuitively, higher running temp/voltage could indeed be good for the atomiser (at least in terms of deposits; it could be worse for evaporation of the wire itself, but that should take a year to cause end-of-life, i would guess, whereas deposits cause a premature end-of-life).

It is a little complex because on the one hand speed of heating will be an important factor, and also max temperature. Then the relationship of VG viscosity with temperature. Hence I suspect the advantage of higher voltage/higher temp is through lowered viscosity of the VG - hence evaporation trumps burning (acts sooner). If all this conjecture is on the right lines, higher voltage plus slightly slower heat up could be the way forward to seeing longer lifetimes for our atomisers (and a vape with less traces of noxious gasses).

obscure footnote (if not a chemist, ignore this): it is just possible that Nickel in the atomiser coil is acting as a catalyst to degrade VG? Very unlikely scenario, but a (remote) possibility.

edit: logical inconsistency noticed: we cant go with both slower heating and higher max temp because that would mean passing the point of high burning ratio. So slowing the heating as a harm reduction strategy would be best used only with the cooler running standard 4v ish operating mode. With the higher voltage higher temp advantage, go with fast flash heating to bypass the burning phase as fast as possible would seem best.

 

[kinabaloo]

Embedded in this thread about wire wool as a possibly useful cartridge material for holding juice against gravity / wicking juice to the atomiser has been some interesting work on our understanding of atomiser deposits.

So here is a summary of the main findings in this thread re atomiser deposits:

Previously, worries about gunky deposits and bad smells being caused by pastics in the atomiser burning seem largely unfounded (although the cartridge wadding can singe a little some people find; replace if it you notice that). People did some tests and found varying quantities of dry residues from e-juices and this seemed the source of the gunk. However, some observations and conjectures by myself and some testing by Terraphon suggest there's more to it than that - that VG (and perhaps PG too, Terraphon will be testing this soon) can itself degrade to leave a burned deposit and noxious smell when heated quickly. I think the reason for this is VG's viscosity - some of it burns before it can evaporate as the hottest molecules nearest the heater coil cant get out through the thick liquid.

There is anecdotal evidence that running atomisers with a higher voltage, as when using a USB passthrough or modded vaporizer, is beneficial for atomiser lifespan. I suggest this might be because the higher voltage lowers the viscosity of the VG enabling evaporation before burning can occur.

An important test at this stage would be to see if degradation of VG occurs in atomiser conditions. By running an atomiser for a week or so with only VG and purified water to see if there is a deposit formed or not in these circumstances (we have found that it can happen, but we can't yet be sure that it does happen in normal vaping conditions).