with so much attention being given to super sub ohm builds...
- Thread starter Asbestos4004
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your right.
i remember when my son and his kids got into R/C cars.
my son like most that get into the hobby quickly picked up on the ins and outs of batteries.
his experience like many was,first how to over charge your battery pack.
second,how to over charge your battery pack safely.
mike
I agree with the OP. I got an IPV2 to try it out and run my usual .2 .3 ohm coils on it, and it worked well for that but when I built 1.3 1.5 ohm coils at 50 watts it worked just as well if not better (in terms of vapor)
Not quite...
We are talking about amp draw at the battery. The internal battery does not change voltage, it's max it 4.2v. Boost circuits work by drawing additional current and then converting that into voltage. You cannot use 1 ohm as your resistance value for calculation (with a 1 ohm coil) because the resistance the battery sees is NOT the same as the resistance of the coil. To achieve higher wattages with higher resistance coils the voltage must be increased, and since the internal battery can't go any higher than 4.2 that additional voltage is produced by drawing higher current.
Think of it from the battery's perspective, how do I produce 30w at 4.2v? There is only one way. put a .588 ohm load on the battery. Try to run the numbers on an ohms law calculator, you cannot get 30w out of 4.2v any other way. Whether you build a .588 ohm coil on a mech, or you use whatever resistance coil on an APV and set it to 30w, the amp draw is the same. Considering these chips aren't 100% efficient a slightly higher current draw is actually required per watt for APVs compared to mechs. And as the battery voltage drop, amp draw increases, because source voltage is lower and higher current draw is required to produce the set power. A mech is the opposite, amp draw decreases as the battery drains.
When calculating amp draw on the battery, the voltage figure you need to use is the battery's output voltage, which doesn't change (well, much) If the voltage doesn't change, the ONLY way to increase power is to increase the current drawn from the battery. Whether you do that with a low resistance coil, or a boost circuit which draws more current and turns it into voltage, the effect is the same.
If that's not proof enough, Zen has been quoted as saying his ZNA draws around 15 amps max. on a 30watt max chip. AFIK performance wise it's the same as any other DNA 30 board. If you were to draw 15amps with a mechanical, your power level would be around 60 watts. Yet the DNA produces only 30 at the same amperage.
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I agree with you 100%!
I was just trying to clarify a few things since it seems to be a common point of confusion here on the forums. People equate sub ohm with high amps and APVs with low amps and that's simply not the case. High power, whether it be an APV or mech, will draw high current. A lot of people seem to think they aren't putting sub-ohm level current draw on their battery when using an APV, but they are, if they are vaping comparable power levles.
0.22 ohms makes about 60 watts in the atty, which is why you see the difference compared to 30 watts. In this case, it's mainly about the watts.
Someone mentioned clouds as a function of watts, not ohms.
Yes, but there's a couple more.
The amount of vapourisation depends on all of the following, some of them related:
- watts
- temperature (coil)
- surface area
For the same power, the thicker the wire, the higher the current but the slower it heats up as well, plus it presents less surface area. So at some point and depending on your build, it may start to perform less than a thinner wire.
Actually, the only reason to use thick wire is coil longevity. Subohming, from my perspective, is only for mechanical mods to increase power to the point that the batteries can take.
Like some mentioned above, it is super crucial that you keep the battery voltage above a certain point while firing - while not at dangerous as the Lipos used in Rc, it is still very dangerous.
The better "coil" is one with thinner wire, that is manufactured as a 3 dimensional mesh embedded in a mesh soaked with juice.
Surface area needs to be maxed out, and thinner wire is better for the same form factor.
Thinner wire also heat up a lot faster, making it better for vapour production.
So totally agree with the Op. In today's world of cheap regulated mods with battery protection circuits built in, there really is no real point going with thick wires and sub-ohming.
While you aim for lower ohms, all you're doing is aiming for longer life. But you have to keep increasing power for the same results because it just takes so Damn long to heat up
Yes, but there's a couple more.
The amount of vapourisation depends on all of the following, some of them related:
- watts
- temperature (coil)
- surface area
For the same power, the thicker the wire, the higher the current but the slower it heats up as well, plus it presents less surface area. So at some point and depending on your build, it may start to perform less than a thinner wire.
Actually, the only reason to use thick wire is coil longevity. Subohming, from my perspective, is only for mechanical mods to increase power to the point that the batteries can take.
Like some mentioned above, it is super crucial that you keep the battery voltage above a certain point while firing - while not at dangerous as the Lipos used in Rc, it is still very dangerous.
The better "coil" is one with thinner wire, that is manufactured as a 3 dimensional mesh embedded in a mesh soaked with juice.
Surface area needs to be maxed out, and thinner wire is better for the same form factor.
Thinner wire also heat up a lot faster, making it better for vapour production.
So totally agree with the Op. In today's world of cheap regulated mods with battery protection circuits built in, there really is no real point going with thick wires and sub-ohming.
While you aim for lower ohms, all you're doing is aiming for longer life. But you have to keep increasing power for the same results because it just takes so Damn long to heat up
I still stand behind my statement. A 1 ohm coil at 30 watts will not produce more vapor than a .22 ohm coil at 4.2 volts.
So true. I'm vaping at 1.2ohms and get plenty of huge clouds because I do a long, slow draw. I've been vaping about a year now and my lungs are healthy. It's awesome.
That's because as Ryedan pointed out above, a .22 on a mech is way higher than 30 watts. It's not a fair comparison. The OP was trying to point out that sub-ohm builds are no longer necessary to reach high power levels, as they once were, back when most regulated mods maxed out around 15 watts or lower.
If you want a fair comparison to a .22 on a mech, something like a 100 watt boxmod cranked to 60 watts or so would be it. The math shows that .22 on a fully charged battery should be about 80 watts, but with the voltage sag present Ryedan is probably right in his number of around 60 watts or so being max what a .22 actually puts out.
Op stated the same quality of vape could be had from setup one as from setup two. I simply stated this is not true. Keep beating the horse, i'll be in the coil builds forum.....
IMO you're correct and Asbestos4004 made a mistake in using 30 watts in his example in the OP. Try it this way; Using a 100 watt regulated device at 60 watts can make the same amount of vapor as a mech mod running a 0.22 ohm atty and is safer because it has short protection built in. The regulated mod also has a second advantage because the 60 watts will not lower as battery voltage goes down giving you a better all around vape experience.
There are new threads every day now where someone can't get their build to work right or produce enough clouds. The common theme is they don't have a resistance meter, so have no real idea that they are building. Next will come the battery venting threads...
In my experience, a 30 watt mod can get pretty similar to the performance of a moderate sub ohm, say somewhere around .6 ohms. That was just me and two other vapers opinion after sitting around and playing with one. The mech starts clearly pulling away at .5 and lower. Personally, that's almost good enough for me, and I'm sure a 50 watt device would be, much less a 100 watt. But they'll have to make them prettier to get me interested in switching. Safety is nice, but not nice enough to get me to carry one of those ugly boxes.
Funny you should show those pics me and another member were just talking about these 2 idiots on the vape blast thread yesterday. These 2 aren't even the worse out there on YouTube. They have idiots giving build tutorials between 0.06-0.09 ohms. There might be worse, that I haven't seen yet.
But, according to these people they know what they're doing and say they're safe because they have a 30 amp battery.
They take every precaution! They use cheap knockoff batteries to keep costs reasonable so they can afford better kanthal, and they use mitts or towels to hold the mods otherwise they would get 2nd-3rd degree burns on their hands from the batteries almost exploding with every puff. Tell me, how much safer can one get! Lol
You forgot the added safety of battery stacking. Stacked 18350s ....
This is sarcasm. Do NOT do this. It is NOT safe.
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I can't understand the attraction to super-sub-ohm builds, unless it's just to push the envelope for the sake of doing so. Cloud chasing? Bigger clouds? Why? Is it a male thing? The ability to project something large out in front of himself? "Mine's bigger!"
I really don't get it.
When I got into RBA's and mechs it wasn't because I was cloud chasing, and I never cared how big a cloud I could make. I wanted satisfaction that equaled what I got from smoking. That meant immediate hits, as fast, strong and flavorful as I got from cigs. I could not get that from ego rigs, no matter how I configured them. As my vaping journey progressed I ended up with a mech and RBA, then settled at .7 ohm over time, and I'm quite happy there.
This .2 ohm and below thing I don't get at all. When you go that low ohm where's the flavor? You get the big cloud, but where's the flavor? From what I've heard it's not there at all, so what's the point? A bigger cloud than that other guy's? Must be, because I only hear about men doing that, and usually young men. So I think it's just a male "mine's bigger" contest.
Meh...
I really don't get it.
When I got into RBA's and mechs it wasn't because I was cloud chasing, and I never cared how big a cloud I could make. I wanted satisfaction that equaled what I got from smoking. That meant immediate hits, as fast, strong and flavorful as I got from cigs. I could not get that from ego rigs, no matter how I configured them. As my vaping journey progressed I ended up with a mech and RBA, then settled at .7 ohm over time, and I'm quite happy there.
This .2 ohm and below thing I don't get at all. When you go that low ohm where's the flavor? You get the big cloud, but where's the flavor? From what I've heard it's not there at all, so what's the point? A bigger cloud than that other guy's? Must be, because I only hear about men doing that, and usually young men. So I think it's just a male "mine's bigger" contest.
Meh...
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