Would you join an organized movement of vapers?

[Plastic Shaman]

It has been quite awhile since I read the CASAA comments, so correct me if I'm wrong...

But aren't they basically proposing that the entire scheme for regulating under the FSPTCA should be trashed?
Why would they provide suggestions for a solution within a flawed regulatory framework?

Yes they are. However, that's not a wise position to take. The statute is clear, as was the Court who heard the case regarding e-cigs. The FDA has authority to regulate this product. There are a number of arguments they could have made, such as making exceptions for small vendors or something that would differentiate based on components of liquid and probably a whole range of things that I can't think of as well as a number of legal arguments. However, they just called the FDA liars, said that they didn't know what they were doing, and asked that the whole thing be scrapped.

The fact is that the FDA, at the minimum, is going to regulate nicotine at some point. This isn't a something that will destroy the industry, but the way they go about it might. I don't see the merits of making this type of argument.

 

[wshanncap]

I think it is a great idea, but I also think Davey59 is right. So would I support vendors and manufacturers who would be a part of such a thing? You bet. I try to buy local and when I can't I buy from American suppliers. And that's not limited to vape gear. I considered ordering from overseas but decided against it due to my political and economic views. But you are right. It will take something like you and Davey mentioned to stand up to the tobacco industry. (They are the ones behind all the anti=vape propaganda). Sign me up.

 

[readeuler]

Yes they are. However, that's not a wise position to take. The statute is clear, as was the Court who heard the case regarding e-cigs. The FDA has authority to regulate this product. There are a number of arguments they could have made, such as making exceptions for small vendors or something that would differentiate based on components of liquid and probably a whole range of things that I can't think of as well as a number of legal arguments. However, they just called the FDA liars, said that they didn't know what they were doing, and asked that the whole thing be scrapped.

The fact is that the FDA, at the minimum, is going to regulate nicotine at some point. This isn't a something that will destroy the industry, but the way they go about it might. I don't see the merits of making this type of argument.

I think it was the wisest way to approach the mess of a regulation. Having the FDA regulate e-cigarettes is like putting Amerivape in charge of Fasttech; there are bias issues so serious that it just ain't gonna work.

Perhaps it wasn't try best way to ... kiss and politicize the FDA into making a less stupid decision, but I wouldn't support CASAA for that kind of behavior. You know, dogs, laying down, fleas, etc.

The Deeming regs were extremely biased. Either the FDA is too stupid to find balanced research, or too slimy listen to the facts. In either case, they just don't deserve the opportunity to strangle the market.

I stand behind CASAA's comment, personally.

 

[six]

Just point me in the direction of the line to pick up my pitchfork and torch.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

I completely agree that the proposed rules are a mess. I even wrote a thread about it last night. However, the problem with the rules is not that the FDA wrote something that's particularly horrid. The 2 proposed options simply bring e-cigarettes under their jurisdiction. I don't think there is any doubt that this will happen at some point. Of course, you have to make the argument that the FDA should not have any jurisdiction, but I don't see that as a realistic outcome.

It's not about sucking up to the FDA. It's about proposing alternative options, such as exemptions for applications, delayed deadlines for research and other analysis, or calls for further definitions. It's also an opportunity to point out legal deficiencies in the FDA's process. It's all well and good to dispute the science and economic outcomes, but that isn't all there is to it, especially since the question is whether e-cigs should be brought under FDA jurisdiction. I just don't see their comments as productive.

As I've stated, the idea that they shouldn't have any control is, in my opinion, moot. It's pretty well established that they do have jurisdiction by statute and by judicial precedent. At some point, the statute, the statute's interpretation, and whether the FDA has properly based it's rules on the statute might be at issue. Still, there are no assurances that these challenges will succeed. Don't you think it is better to try to create some breathing room now in the face of impending regulation rather than just sit in a state of denial?

 

[readeuler]

Just to be clear, I have a lot of respect for you. You've been around a lot longer than me, and seem to have the background to seriously think about these topics productively. I just have my layperson opinion.

I completely agree that the proposed rules are a mess. I even wrote a thread about it last night. However, the problem with the rules is not that the FDA wrote something that's particularly horrid. The 2 proposed options simply bring e-cigarettes under their jurisdiction. I don't think there is any doubt that this will happen at some point. Of course, you have to make the argument that the FDA should not have any jurisdiction, but I don't see that as a realistic outcome.

It's not about sucking up to the FDA. It's about proposing alternative options, such as exemptions for applications, delayed deadlines for research and other analysis, or calls for further definitions. It's also an opportunity to point out legal deficiencies in the FDA's process. It's all well and good to dispute the science and economic outcomes, but that isn't all there is to it, especially since the question is whether e-cigs should be brought under FDA jurisdiction. I just don't see their comments as productive.

And this is precisely why I think the CASAA comment is productive. The only circumstance in which I think the FDA should even be considered for jurisdiction over e-cigs would be if they add value by doing so (and this is merely a necessary condition, not sufficient). To that end, I think CASAA hit the nail on the head: The FDA that proposed those regulations will certainly destroy value with the proposed regulations. It's a no-brainer, in this case, that they should not be given jurisdiction, which was what I got from CASAA's comment.

As I've stated, the idea that they shouldn't have any control is, in my opinion, moot. It's pretty well established that they do have jurisdiction by statute and by judicial precedent. At some point, the statute, the statute's interpretation, and whether the FDA has properly based it's rules on the statute might be at issue. Still, there are no assurances that these challenges will succeed. Don't you think it is better to try to create some breathing room now in the face of impending regulation rather than just sit in a state of denial?

This is where you background trumps mine. It seems like common sense that a clearly biased regulator should not be allowed to regulate with an excessively heavy hand, but apparently they have the right to do so. I guess it must be some kind of denial; I would think asserting the FDA shouldn't have the right to regulate could result in breathing room, since they only appeared to seek comments on how they weren't going far enough.

I'd certainly love to do something helpful, for what it's worth. I don't mean to derail, just mention that I thought CASAA's comment was genuinely good. Then again, they were preaching to the choir with me.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

CASAA's letter was made during the comments period to the FDA's deeming regulations. It would have been a waste of space to propose how they should be handling it. I too thought CASAA did an excellent job. The FDA's "carpet bombing" approach to vaping is priceless, and accurate.

Shaman's other post on this is here http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...on/620297-fdas-proposed-rules-unworkable.html Worth a read.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

I don't disagree that an e-cig lobby would pale compared to the others. However, there are some legitimate arguments that can win in court regardless of their money. However it takes money to conduct this type of litigation.

Money doesn't always win against good legal arguments, but you need some money to get the case off the ground. Also, it wouldn't take nearly as much money to fight state and local laws. That's where something like this might be really helpful.

Honesty, beyond the problems with the current rules, I don't think that there will be much more regulation coming from the FDA that would cripple the industry. I could be wrong though.

I think it will be Njoy that takes them to court in the end, again. They do have the money to do it. As much as I'd like to see a grassroots movement do it, it's hard to even get vapers involved in local government hearings.

 

[chopdoc]

The thing is, out of everyone who will or might or wont support a group like any of these, how many have actually taken the time to contact their elected officials and told them how vaping helped your lives as well as if the FDA goes thru with the proposals they want that it will seriously harm the vaping community. I contacted mine as well as that SOB in the white house that I hate with a passion. Vaping is that important to me.
It is so simple to contact a Senator, Congressman or President and they always respond. If nothing else they know people are watching this topic of vaping and they might think before they vote on any legislation affecting it. Everyone knows how deadly smoking is. If people would just take the time to write an email to their elected officials with a "hey, I quit a 20 year, 30 year 40 year smoking habit in X amount of days and its all because of vaping where nothing else worked." It would go a long way to letting them know what the lobbyist are not telling them and we might end up with some vape friendly people in Washington.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

I did and it shocked the hell out of me that one time it actually did make a difference.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

This is where you background trumps mine. It seems like common sense that a clearly biased regulator should not be allowed to regulate with an excessively heavy hand, but apparently they have the right to do so. I guess it must be some kind of denial; I would think asserting the FDA shouldn't have the right to regulate could result in breathing room, since they only appeared to seek comments on how they weren't going far enough.

Trust me, I don't know that much! I can be wrong about a lot of things. I'm still a novice in this area.

I see where you're coming from, but the problem is that Congress gave them the authority under the Tobacco Control Act. Actually, the thing that will cause the biggest problem right now, the registration process, was also created by Congress. If you want to place blame, you need to blame Congress. Also, it was passed with a fairly large majority in both the House and the Senate. While I disagree about FDA legislation, as I believe it is needed to some extent, I personally think that Congress should pass separate legislation for these products. I also think that the allowing the FDA to regulate components, parts, and accessories was a terrible idea. Why would the FDA need to be able to regulate parts of a hookah or a plastic cartridge? Seems stupid to me, but that's what Congress decided. Unless it is deemed unconstitutional by the Court, or new legislation is passed, that's just the situation that we are forced to deal with. So, as another has already suggested, contact your congressional representative, especially those who voted for the act and tell them how you feel.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

Trust me, I don't know that much! I can be wrong about a lot of things. I'm still a novice in this area.

I see where you're coming from, but the problem is that Congress gave them the authority under the Tobacco Control Act. Actually, the thing that will cause the biggest problem right now, the registration process, was also created by Congress. If you want to place blame, you need to blame Congress. Also, it was passed with a fairly large majority in both the House and the Senate. While I disagree about FDA legislation, as I believe it is needed to some extent, I personally think that Congress should pass separate legislation for these products. I also think that the allowing the FDA to regulate components, parts, and accessories was a terrible idea. Why would the FDA need to be able to regulate parts of a hookah or a plastic cartridge? Seems stupid to me, but that's what Congress decided. Unless it is deemed unconstitutional by the Court, or new legislation is passed, that's just the situation that we are forced to deal with. So, as another has already suggested, contact your congressional representative, especially those who voted for the act and tell them how you feel.

With any luck that is one area they will run into big time trouble.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

CASAA's letter was made during the comments period to the FDA's deeming regulations. It would have been a waste of space to propose how they should be handling it. I too thought CASAA did an excellent job. The FDA's "carpet bombing" approach to vaping is priceless, and accurate.

The comments period is the only time to propose alternative solutions. After that, the rule is finalized and can only be challenged in court. Look at the comments from SFATA

http://sfata.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/FDA_2014_N_0189_SFATA_Comments.pdf

They make a number of suggestions about implementation, time periods, studies, ect. I'm not saying that the comments that CASAA were detrimental in any way. I just think that they missed an opportunity. Incidentally, it's obvious that SFATA had experts write their comments and it looks like they hired a group of professionals to conduct their analysis. I'm sure that CASAA would have been more effective if the community supported them more, I mean in a monetary sense, and they had hired lawyers and paid for expert analysis.

 

[AndriaD]

Unfortunately, I'd have to say "probably not." Vapers have become accustomed to searching for the best price in most cases and I would imagine that behavior would continue to a large degree.

Bingo. One of my top reasons for switching to vaping was to save money -- because we don't have much of it, ever. I spend the least amount I can get away with, and sometimes that means ordering from China or Hong Kong, for things I don't need right this minute or even this week.

I've already joined CASAA, and contributed both to them and this forum, but my contributions are small, since that's really the best I can do. When I can buy something from China or HK for 1/4 the price I'd pay for it to an American vendor, then I order the less expensive item. For ejuice, I always buy American, simply because I don't really trust the hygienic practices in other countries, especially China, but I cannot purchase from only AEMSA vendors, since I need WTA and they forbid it.

Andria

 

[Plastic Shaman]

Bingo. One of my top reasons for switching to vaping was to save money -- because we don't have much of it, ever. I spend the least amount I can get away with, and sometimes that means ordering from China or Hong Kong, for things I don't need right this minute or even this week.

I've already joined CASAA, and contributed both to them and this forum, but my contributions are small, since that's really the best I can do. When I can buy something from China or HK for 1/4 the price I'd pay for it to an American vendor, then I order the less expensive item. For ejuice, I always buy American, simply because I don't really trust the hygienic practices in other countries, especially China, but I cannot purchase from only AEMSA vendors, since I need WTA and they forbid it.

Andria

I have complete sympathy. I'm a grad student going through a divorce. I spend way more than my vaping budget allows and I've found myself eating ramen the past few night, but that's besides the point.

However, what I would point out is that if there isn't anything done, and things go south, you might find yourself in a situation where you are vaping the stuff that companies like n-joy and blu produce or the stuff imported from China. This might also open the door for higher prices.

Anyways, you seem like you keep it pretty modest. A large portion of this community doesn't. If they could get on board with this and buy fewer mods and attys, but by them from American vendors who are members of these groups, instead of buying tons of stuff off fasttech, there would be more of a chance. Granted, I'm just being idealistic, but I don't think it's a remote possibility that this could all come back to bite us in the ....

 

[AndriaD]

I have complete sympathy. I'm a grad student going through a divorce. I spend way more than my vaping budget allows and I've found myself eating ramen the past few night, but that's besides the point.

However, what I would point out is that if there isn't anything done, and things go south, you might find yourself in a situation where you are vaping the stuff that companies like n-joy and blu produce or the stuff imported from China. This might also open the door for higher prices.

Anyways, you seem like you keep it pretty modest. A large portion of this community doesn't. If they could get on board with this and buy fewer mods and attys, but by them from American vendors who are members of these groups, instead of buying tons of stuff off fasttech, there would be more of a chance. Granted, I'm just being idealistic, but I don't think it's a remote possibility that this could all come back to bite us in the ....

Actually I do agree, and I try to find great deals from American vendors wherever possible -- but most of the mods come from China (all of mine do), so I'm not sure it makes that much difference to buy them from an American vendor. I've never purchased anything from FastTech, I'm usually too impatient but I have made a few purchases from e5cigs in HK, and VaporBreak, in China.

As for ejuice, I'm busily trying to become an expert DIYer as fast as possible, but it is, alas, a rather slow process. Hopefully I can master it before the caca hits the revolving blades, but if, as we all fear, the FDA does something evil to our access to liquid nicotine... then I just dunno. I'm trying to stockpile as much as possible, but with our budget, that's a fairly modest effort -- and at the moment, I'm really just trying to wean from WTA before such a time as it becomes completely unavailable, because till now, plain nicotine hasn't been sufficient for me -- but now that I'm past 3mo smoke-free, that may be, seems to be, changing for the better. I'm hoping that by the time I hit 6mo smoke-free, I won't need the WTA at all, and can concentrate on my nicotine freezer stash.

Of course, once I can make ALL my own ejuice, that will free up a considerable sum, which should permit me to eschew foreign sources for my vape gear. But, my favorite rebuildable is a Tobeco KFL+, which I plan to get several more of... and as far as I know, that's a Chinese manufacturer.

Andria

 

[Plastic Shaman]

Actually I do agree, and I try to find great deals from American vendors wherever possible -- but most of the mods come from China (all of mine do), so I'm not sure it makes that much difference to buy them from an American vendor. I've never purchased anything from FastTech, I'm usually too impatient but I have made a few purchases from e5cigs in HK, and VaporBreak, in China.

As for ejuice, I'm busily trying to become an expert DIYer as fast as possible, but it is, alas, a rather slow process. Hopefully I can master it before the caca hits the revolving blades, but if, as we all fear, the FDA does something evil to our access to liquid nicotine... then I just dunno. I'm trying to stockpile as much as possible, but with our budget, that's a fairly modest effort -- and at the moment, I'm really just trying to wean from WTA before such a time as it becomes completely unavailable, because till now, plain nicotine hasn't been sufficient for me -- but now that I'm past 3mo smoke-free, that may be, seems to be, changing for the better. I'm hoping that by the time I hit 6mo smoke-free, I won't need the WTA at all, and can concentrate on my nicotine freezer stash.

Of course, once I can make ALL my own ejuice, that will free up a considerable sum, which should permit me to eschew foreign sources for my vape gear. But, my favorite rebuildable is a Tobeco KFL+, which I plan to get several more of... and as far as I know, that's a Chinese manufacturer.

Andria

Well, I think it could make a difference if we all made sure that we bought through vendors that contribute to these groups.

It's good that you are getting ready, but I doubt you need to worry about it right at this moment. It will still take a while to finalize these rules and then they have to be implemented. However, your production of your own juice raises some important issues. First, I'd wonder how long can you keep that up? CASAA raised the problem with a black market in their comments and I give them big props for that. It's a really important safety issue. For example, I just finished my first cigar extract yesterday (using an Acid Deep Dish cigar) and I have to say I'm pretty impressed, as are the people who have tried it. It's OK for an experiment and something for certain occasions. However, I made it it a crock pot with mason jars and vg from the grocery store. I have to admit that my kitchen is pretty much the opposite of a sterile environment. I wouldn't want to have to resort to using this kind of a home brew all the time for health reasons. Also, how long will your hardware last? Will the FDA rules have any effect on the sales of batteries and kanthal? Worst case scenario, we'll all be pulling wires out of lightbulbs and hooking them into flashlights and vaping off of D batteries! (I'm kidding, but the black market thing is a real concern imo).

Anyways, all the more reason to support groups like SFATA. I really do hope the FDA takes this argument into consideration when they finalize the rules though.

 

[sub4me]

I think the best approach would be for liquid companies to protect their businesses. They are the ones that should be funding the battle and hirring lobbyist. I'm not about to help fund some group that will do whatever they want with collections they receive, like pay themselves big salaries and buy first class tickets so they can go rub elbows.

I understand where your coming from with your idea but that type of action needs funding by the manufactures not people or private small businesses cause that will never work.

 

[Frenchfry1942]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I hope that others that look in the "What's New" and "Today's Posts" will read and help out. Its good to let newer people know that they can be a help to all others. The following link here on ECF has stories of success. They are uplifting and good examples of what to write when writing to your local newspapers. Usually, they have to be limited to 300-500 words.


E-Cigarette Success Stories

Thanks all

 

[Auntie Mame]

In my business experience I learned the more organizations there are for an industry, the more fragmented the ideas become. One group may be about the business side, promotion of standards and/or let's face it, profits, where another may be firmly focused on the consumer and yet another may be firmly opposed and focused on keeping all away from their town/state/children/pets - whatever. The most successful "movements' in US history focused on one very narrow idea. Civil Rights. Women's suffrage. End a war.

If somehow everyone could agree about and be passionate about one idea that is easily understood by all, you might have something. Otherwise, sorry to say, it's just another organization where several already exist.