Would you join an organized movement of vapers?
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I don't disagree that oversight and accountability are big issues. However, I'd argue that everyone has a stake in this. Also, if only juice companies took on this issue, there won't be a whole lot of funding. When you say small private businesses, I'm curious about what you mean. Excluding B&Ms that make their own juice, I can't imagine that most juice companies are very big. Maybe I'm wrong, but even the more popular ones are relatively small and wouldn't be able to do it all on their own.
Just sharing success teaches new members that there is hope. Teaching a newspaper's readers says that vaping should be given a chance...and not squashed.
No doubt. I can see from these boards and the opinions of people I meet in shops that most are opposed to any regulation on any level. However, people and businesses involved in these issues would have to understand that you don't always get exactly what you want and that lobbyist group may have to advocate positions that are a middle ground. It's a vexing problem, but one that could potentially make or break this part of the industry.
Really? I didn't think that the market had grown that much already. Do you think that these companies have enough capital to back a large lobbyist group with some weight to throw around? It would be awesome if someone did a comprehensive analysis of the current state of the market.
Considering making and supplying liquid is their lifeblood I'd be shocked if they weren't already in someone pockets and ears. JC is half owned by RT there's a reason for that and it's not to shut down the market its to realize larger profits in the market.
So, would you support the regulation? If these juice vendors have that much capital, they can probably survive the application process. Then we would at least have some list of ingredients, warning labels, deterrents for sales to minors, ect. Granted, the question I have about the hardware manufactures and B&Ms that make their own juice remain, but is it possible that the good outweighs the bad?
I don't think RT bought into JC to start making cig a likes. That company is all about selling liquid and their very serious about it. Their facility is no joke its a solid profit making business.
Take a look at Halo, extremely successful business. Halo also has a huge investment in the game and just bought themselves a giant facility in Florida their on the edge of something that's about to take off way beyond what we are seeing now.
Online only vendors are everywhere and I wouldn't consider them reliable. Those types of businesses can be a few guys in the basement mixing, labeling, and running a website to even a larger business doing the same thing in a small warehouse. Their hot now gone next year and forgotten. The big companies producing massive volumes of liquid will be the ones shaping what we will have, not Billy Bob and Joe Joe selling their homemade bottled and labled liquid as premium liquid on the web.
Take a look at Halo, extremely successful business. Halo also has a huge investment in the game and just bought themselves a giant facility in Florida their on the edge of something that's about to take off way beyond what we are seeing now.
Online only vendors are everywhere and I wouldn't consider them reliable. Those types of businesses can be a few guys in the basement mixing, labeling, and running a website to even a larger business doing the same thing in a small warehouse. Their hot now gone next year and forgotten. The big companies producing massive volumes of liquid will be the ones shaping what we will have, not Billy Bob and Joe Joe selling their homemade bottled and labled liquid as premium liquid on the web.
Yes some regs are needed, there's just no doubt about it and probably no way around it now. Most hardware is made in China and will probably remain that way due to price and manufacturing costs. I would look for more quality demands made on these imported goods for safety assurances. As far as local shops making their own liquid that's something that they need to sustain themselves and that's where most of their profits come from.
Well, when you pair that with the hardware companies that are starting to get big, the sky might not be falling after all. Small businesses like B&Ms will be on the way out, but I think this was bound to happen anyways. I'm already seeing large B&M chains popping up in my area. Sure, we may have to pay more somewhere down the line, but I assume it will still be less than cigarettes and we will probably be getting stuff of a higher quality and it will be safer.
This information makes it seem like CASAA was grossly misrepresenting the economic impacts of the proposed rules!
This information makes it seem like CASAA was grossly misrepresenting the economic impacts of the proposed rules!
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I definitely agree with this 100%. I've contacted both NC Senators, my local Senator, and the governor about the whole FDA and how vaping helped me quit smoking. That's probably the best thing to do right now. If they get enough people and read enough stories maybe they will realize how important this is to us.
The simple fact of the matter is that it is very hard to accurately portray the vapor industry. Privately-held companies are easily more than 99.9% of the participants, and consequently we simply don't know their financial status; they don't need to declare profits to anyone but Uncle Sam. Somebody is claiming they're essentially all profit. That's possible, but certainly the reverse is possible - that most of them make a modest amount, are barely eeking by, or surviving on debt. We just don't know. I don't think it's fair to assume that the regulations will hardly affect the landscape. It's definitely going to cull the herd, who knows what will survive?
Of course there are a handful of large companies in each sub-sector. It probably follows some kind of power rule, where (for example) 80% of the revenue is being generated by 20% of the participants. I don't know how the newness of vaping affects the ratio of little to big guys, but I'd wager it pushes things in the "little guy" direction. This leads me to believe that the landscape will be altered fairly significantly by the deeming regs.
The market is evolving rapidly. This doesn't happen without plenty of R&D, and R&D isn't cheap. Just keep that in mind, when you estimate how much free cash can be thrown at the FDA. This applies primarily to manufacturers. On the retail end, the internet is one giant price war, which also isn't great for the bottom line.
These are just some counterpoints, before we jump to conclusions about how much liquid capital is floating around.
Well, even if 99.9% of the market is small business, if the .1% has a large enough market share and can survive through regulation, I don't think that all is lost. Plus, we would have better products, flavors, ect. since those companies can afford the R&D. The was CASAA made it seem, the only things that would be left would be little plastic cigs. This is why there is such a panic and people are stockpiling products.
If sub4me is correct, this regulation might benefit us all in the long run. Granted, less options, but better, safer options with less guess work. It all seems like speculation at this point.
If sub4me is correct, this regulation might benefit us all in the long run. Granted, less options, but better, safer options with less guess work. It all seems like speculation at this point.
Heh, I made an extremely similar point in a thread not too long ago, and I think the thread got deleted because it was derailed by people flaming me, saying "THE FDA WILL RUIN E-CIGS" and "NO REGULATION IS THE ONLY GOOD REGULATION"
I'd love to see consistency in products. The ability to regulate will both be negative and positive. It'll certainly put people out of business (potentially small, hard-working guys) but it will also open up the market to the quality companies that actually care about their products.
Now then.. [puts on flame ......ant suit] BRING IT!
ETA: Lol, remember all those vape shops that closed down literally AS SOON as the FDA regulations were revealed (even though they'll take years to be put into effect). Talk about jumpin' the gun...
every day I hear vendors here selling 500+ bottles in a weekend. Lemme see........some o you are very naive not to know what kind o money is being made by vendors, almost all o who say they can't afford an $200 test on a bottle o liquid
10K a week in sales would be a conservative estimate for a popular eliquid vendor.......6 figs a year at least.
so yes, there is $$ for lobby group. Its a several billion dollars a year industry
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I looked at most o them, they had antiquated inventory, couldn't keep pace w/how fast the tech was moving.
Nothing to do with fda from my studying their websites.....
I'm fairly certain I saw several posts on Reddit/various other sites of vendors closing down specifically because they were anticipating the FDA regulation to be harsh. I can't provide any links, but that's definitely what I saw. Distinct messages blaming the FDA for their shutdowns.
If they have that much money, then there is no need for lobbying at this point. If I was a premium juice vendor with 5 or 6 flavors that people are buying like mad, the proposed rules would be in my favor. With that small of a line and enough capital, getting through the application process would be no problem. Also, it would put a lot of the smaller lines out of business. They can worry about the next set of proposals when the time comes.
That's actually really funny considering all the proposed rules do is bring these products within the jurisdiction of the FDA and won't go into effect for a while.
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