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WTA is the future
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Clear you pm box or post a question on a wta suppliers sub forum.
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Sorry to edit such a post with that little quote.
See, I understand all of your concerns and really appreciate you coming back (maybe still p'ed) but more amicable. As far as the money thing, I don't know and I actually don't care about that. It is really simple for me: I love to vape, but I am apparently sensitive to stimulants in ways (as far as I can tell) hardly NOBODY else is because only 10 or so people have told me they have similar issues. Standard juice gets me feeling jittery and racy. I don't know what levels or quantities nic is deemed safe, but it doesn't take much to get me feeling off. WTA does not do that to me at all. So, when people talk about standard nic being harmless, it ain't quite so for me. Standard nic generally leaves me uneasy, jittery, unable to sleep, and my damn mind doesn't want to settle down. That doesn't sound harmless to me, and it doesn't feel that way. I don't plan on vaping into my golden years, and I never planned on smoking past 35; so I am taking calculated risks as of now, and I know that. I have put way more questionable products in my body (and quite a bit) that truly were of concern. As of now, I like reading as much as I can from both sides of any argument. I am not calling you this or that because you oppose it, and if I am a fanboy because I sleep better at night, have normal heart rate, and am absolutely thrilled about it, well...I am a fanboy...and that's okay. I am not, however, incapable of knowing what my body is saying to me at any given moment. That would be me burying my head in the sand.
p.s. I never was saying that NET and WTA were the same thing, that was from another discussion...if in fact you thought I was implying that. Thanks for providing a good, informative post about what you believe. THAT, is what makes this forum great.
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Radio, inbox is cleared. I posted on your forum, so we can continue there. Mr.Mann, That's not being a fanboy at all. I am all for your freedom to choose, we all did it when we smoked. More so when SOME of us did other things we should not have been doing. I am a HUGE fan of free passing of info though, and I am all about the regulation of possible harmful materials. We all know that nic is a stimulant, and I don't think you are in the minority with the jitters and the like. I have seen, sadly where the health section has had people in the past with similar issues to yours and have been kinda shot down. WTA works for you, and you have made a calculated risk. But I still would like to see a little test data to at least give the consumer a little insight into the possible side effects of the alkaloids in question.
I think after the aforementioned thread, we all knew it was going to come to this. There is most definitively something missing in the equation for e-cigs, and that was all addressed by KIN & DVAP and others in that thread and a few others. MY concern comes from this again. There is no direct correlation in the levels of WTA directly extracted and those in an analog cigarette. Different chemicals (alkaloids) burn at differing rates and at the point of combustion directly measurable percentages of the WTA's are burned off leaveing a smaller percentage to be absorbed by the body. Now it seems that our friend Radio and others are trying to get a mix "just right" and that was a good idea. All of the WTA I have had the chance to vape has been in incremental doses added to my favorite juice. When I vaped straight WTA it was a very mellow experience, more than I can say I had with an analog. This caused a little concern.
I have been on anti anxiety meds in the past and the feeling was not the same but close. This leads me to believe that the alkaloids interaction with the brain is a little more far reaching than we all care to think. This most likely explains why a high percentage of smokers that quit go through bout of depression and anxiety.
I think after the aforementioned thread, we all knew it was going to come to this. There is most definitively something missing in the equation for e-cigs, and that was all addressed by KIN & DVAP and others in that thread and a few others. MY concern comes from this again. There is no direct correlation in the levels of WTA directly extracted and those in an analog cigarette. Different chemicals (alkaloids) burn at differing rates and at the point of combustion directly measurable percentages of the WTA's are burned off leaveing a smaller percentage to be absorbed by the body. Now it seems that our friend Radio and others are trying to get a mix "just right" and that was a good idea. All of the WTA I have had the chance to vape has been in incremental doses added to my favorite juice. When I vaped straight WTA it was a very mellow experience, more than I can say I had with an analog. This caused a little concern.
I have been on anti anxiety meds in the past and the feeling was not the same but close. This leads me to believe that the alkaloids interaction with the brain is a little more far reaching than we all care to think. This most likely explains why a high percentage of smokers that quit go through bout of depression and anxiety.
I agree with James, I don't like this idea. I hadn't heard it till reading it now. I am happy with the E Juice we have had and don't see a reason to change, especially if the FDA gets around to taxing it.
I just read your post in the http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-liquid-discussion/311252-caffeine-e-juice.html, thread...
Jayvolt: There are other products that give us the minor alkaloids besides inhaling smoke from cigarettes that don't involve combustion. I am thinking of snus. I know when I quit smoking using snus over three years ago (I'm one of those for whom e-cigs where a spectacular failure) there was a different feel between smoking and smokeless tobacco use. I think it is more then just the fact that snus hits at a slower rate. In some ways snus feels a bit more satisfying then smoking, in other ways it is not quite there. Over all though it's good enough.
No doubt the minor alkaloid mix we are getting is a bit different with a non-combusted product. I'm not complaining as it suits me well, and has done well with many other people who have quit smoking using snus and other smokeless tobacco products.
Not much more to add except that I appear to have missed the fireworks last night, and now I can't even get the full story.
At least I learned what NET is.
No doubt the minor alkaloid mix we are getting is a bit different with a non-combusted product. I'm not complaining as it suits me well, and has done well with many other people who have quit smoking using snus and other smokeless tobacco products.
Not much more to add except that I appear to have missed the fireworks last night, and now I can't even get the full story.
At least I learned what NET is.
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I'd have to agree with you Stubby. I have for the last month been using the snus regularly and have to say it is a much smoother ride than the cigarette roller-coaster ride is that I once was on. Of course the delivery method is a smoother curve, but if it also has to do with snus having different ratios of alkaloids than combustoids do, then smokeless seems to agree just right with me.
Secondly, I appreciate that vaping nic liquid for over a year has given me a tool to (largely) stay away from cigarettes, enabling me to regain my physical health, but I would be less concerned if the liquids also contained the "other" alkaloids, as I most likely would not have spent extended durations hanging off the end of my e-cig enduring the stimulant-only effect nicotine by itself provides. The other alkaloids for me seem to put nicotine into balance, not only making the experience more enjoyable and satisfying, but enabling me to gauge quantities. Nic by itself has no subjective markers for me with regard to quantities, besides increased jitteryness. It keeps the cravings away but I ultimately feel the same should I have had a little or lots. In that situation it is then too easy to have lots whilst you chase that "something missing". Not that I have tried it yet, but if WTA liquids have similar ratios between alkaloids as smokeless tobacco (snus) does, then I believe it has to be the future.
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There is no off switch for me without the minor alkaloids. With the minor alkaloids I am a relatively moderate tobacco user.
There are 3 different ways to do tobacco one from chemicals to make it taste like Tobacco and naturally extracted where some one gets the flavoring from tobacco, and one where the flavorist mix both.
I'm with Stubby, the most regular nicquid would have done for me was cutting back. I still needed my half dozen or so (the or so was toward the end when 6 became 7, then 8) to suppliment what I was getting from my E cig. Then nearly 2vand a half years ago I found Swedish snus and cigarettes were gone for ever. 4 or 5 portions a day has replaced 2 1/2 PAD with perhaps 2 ML of nicquid/WTA a week. I still like a puff or two here and there, particularly in a tavern setting.
Heck, I got home six hours ago and just realized writing this that I left my APV in my bike and probably won't use it until tomorrow some time. I'll take my chances with what I do today over what I was doing three years ago any time.
Heck, I got home six hours ago and just realized writing this that I left my APV in my bike and probably won't use it until tomorrow some time. I'll take my chances with what I do today over what I was doing three years ago any time.
Aaron,
Would you classify "adding chemicals to achieve tobacco flavor" a form of "Natural Extraction"?
I was under the assumption that "Natural Extraction Tabacco" (NET) was basically simple soaks (mascerations), or essence extractions.
I wouldn't call it clashing, they do combine, how much you like these combinations does depend on personal taste I would expect. However this is what experimentation is for, although a lot of people are afraid to experiment. So you can just combine a bit of each juice you're looking to try together and see how you like it.
Tobacco Road gets along with several other tobacco vapes in my stash.
I had a guy alert me that this thread has taken a strange turn and after browsing though the latest comments he sure is right. I'll respond to some of the comments, I may have forgotten some of the issues and some of the material was deleted but I'll do my best here to remember
Did someone really suggest that WTA be subject to human trials before being allowed to be sold? I'm pretty sure that tobacco has a pretty long history of human trials already. That's one of the funniest things I've heard on here in a while.
As vapers, we are consuming tobacco in an unburned form, and therefore are looking to enjoy certain constituents of the product without having to breathe in smoke. It's fairly well accepted that by not burning it, we are enjoying several benefits here. Some of these benefits may be seen as harm reduction, although that's not even a term I would use.
I think a better way of looking at this is in terms of the relationship between costs and benefits, and with the costs I'm speaking both of monetary and health costs. If it were the case, for instance, that smoking makes us feel so much better than vaping, then it could be perfectly rational to want to continue smoking, if you look at overall utility, which we need to. So in other words, having a shorter but significantly more enjoyable lifespan could hold more enjoyment overall and therefore be the better choice.
This was just the subject that I was debating before I tried WTA. I felt better smoking than vaping regular juice, and a lot of people do, which is why so many go back to smoking. Some feel fine just vaping, and some perhaps feel better. So this is pretty individualized.
So one of the reasons why I bring this up is that we can't just look at WTA and non-WTA vaping as identical goods, then make guesses as to their relative safety and decide which we should prefer based upon just that. This in fact would be outright stupidity.
As for the safety, while it may be the case that WTA is less "safe" than non WTA, we can say with absolute certainty that it is safer than inhaling burning tobacco fumes, quite a bit safer in fact.
So for those who use WTA or are looking to try it, this is the only issue here. We enjoy using tobacco of some form or other, and if this is the form we most enjoy, and in particular, enjoy it significantly more than non WTA, there is no need to think on the matter any more.
As it turns out though, there are people who enjoy meddling in topics where they obviously have little grasp of the real issues here, and therefore choose to throw stones into a pond whose waters are already very clear and beautiful to behold. None of us who have the proper understanding of what's going on here are going to be fooled though.
Did someone really suggest that WTA be subject to human trials before being allowed to be sold? I'm pretty sure that tobacco has a pretty long history of human trials already. That's one of the funniest things I've heard on here in a while.
As vapers, we are consuming tobacco in an unburned form, and therefore are looking to enjoy certain constituents of the product without having to breathe in smoke. It's fairly well accepted that by not burning it, we are enjoying several benefits here. Some of these benefits may be seen as harm reduction, although that's not even a term I would use.
I think a better way of looking at this is in terms of the relationship between costs and benefits, and with the costs I'm speaking both of monetary and health costs. If it were the case, for instance, that smoking makes us feel so much better than vaping, then it could be perfectly rational to want to continue smoking, if you look at overall utility, which we need to. So in other words, having a shorter but significantly more enjoyable lifespan could hold more enjoyment overall and therefore be the better choice.
This was just the subject that I was debating before I tried WTA. I felt better smoking than vaping regular juice, and a lot of people do, which is why so many go back to smoking. Some feel fine just vaping, and some perhaps feel better. So this is pretty individualized.
So one of the reasons why I bring this up is that we can't just look at WTA and non-WTA vaping as identical goods, then make guesses as to their relative safety and decide which we should prefer based upon just that. This in fact would be outright stupidity.
As for the safety, while it may be the case that WTA is less "safe" than non WTA, we can say with absolute certainty that it is safer than inhaling burning tobacco fumes, quite a bit safer in fact.
So for those who use WTA or are looking to try it, this is the only issue here. We enjoy using tobacco of some form or other, and if this is the form we most enjoy, and in particular, enjoy it significantly more than non WTA, there is no need to think on the matter any more.
As it turns out though, there are people who enjoy meddling in topics where they obviously have little grasp of the real issues here, and therefore choose to throw stones into a pond whose waters are already very clear and beautiful to behold. None of us who have the proper understanding of what's going on here are going to be fooled though.
Now, as far as regulation goes, every time we vape any sort of juice it is at least initially based upon a matter of trust. In addition to this, we also can base our evaluations on our past experiences with a vendor and the opinions and testimonials of others as well.
I can't imagine what anyone could possibly do with tobacco as far as extraction methods go which would make it even close to being as dangerous as smoking it would be. We smoke the entire plant, along with an assortment of additives that tobacco companies put in. So in comparison someone is looking to take parts of the natural plant and put it in our juice. I do not need to know any more, other than to try it and see how I like it.
If it were possible to extract every compound from tobacco and put it in juice then it's still going to be way safer than smoking all of these compounds. The best we've been able to do though is to take some minor substances in addition to the nicotine and put it in there. If you are cool with just vaping nicotine, PG/VG, flavorings, or whatever, then that's fine, but some of us wish to get closer to the real experience of smoking without actually smoking, and see WTA as a Godsend, instead of a cheap imitation that does not work very well for us at all.
I can't imagine what anyone could possibly do with tobacco as far as extraction methods go which would make it even close to being as dangerous as smoking it would be. We smoke the entire plant, along with an assortment of additives that tobacco companies put in. So in comparison someone is looking to take parts of the natural plant and put it in our juice. I do not need to know any more, other than to try it and see how I like it.
If it were possible to extract every compound from tobacco and put it in juice then it's still going to be way safer than smoking all of these compounds. The best we've been able to do though is to take some minor substances in addition to the nicotine and put it in there. If you are cool with just vaping nicotine, PG/VG, flavorings, or whatever, then that's fine, but some of us wish to get closer to the real experience of smoking without actually smoking, and see WTA as a Godsend, instead of a cheap imitation that does not work very well for us at all.
Well for my part I would gladly get my Nic fix from another source than tobacco extracted Nic if I could. I want nothing more to do with the tobacco industry. The same industry that grows the tobacco for nicotine extraction...
WTA to me is a step in the wrong direction, it further endangers a fledgling industry, giving more ammunition to those that would shut us down. A little press spin here and there and now we can't claim that there is no tobacco in our juice...we may as well just say I'm a smoker that's scared to use a lighter....
WTA to me is a step in the wrong direction, it further endangers a fledgling industry, giving more ammunition to those that would shut us down. A little press spin here and there and now we can't claim that there is no tobacco in our juice...we may as well just say I'm a smoker that's scared to use a lighter....
That cat has been out of the bag awhile now. If you want to move away from tobacco connections, that is fine with me, but until then, we are in the same boat.
A little "press spin here and there" would not exempt nicotine, irrespective of the source. If it is nicotine, it is nicotine.
Kingcobra, thank you for taking the time for writing * exactly * what I've been wanting to write here but have been waiting in amazement to see if people are actually serious about their anti-WTA stance or whether it's just advocacy of the devil.
You never could claim that, that ship has sailed- nicotine comes from tobacco, and eliquids are classified as a tobacco product. It isn't spin, its a fact. Trying to claim it isn't is what requires spinning.
Well, I am an ex-smoker that's scared to use a lighter. Aren't you? Who isn't scared of cancer and emphysema?
I didn't want to quit smoking, I liked smoking. I would still smoke if smoking didn't kill you slowly and painfully.
When we talk about vaping, what we look for in vapor production, throat hit, warm vs. cool vapor, authenticity of flavors, that search for the elusive all-day vape, we are looking to achieve an experience that replicates smoking enough to make us content with not smoking. We know vaping isn't ever going to be smoking- but we chase the experience just the same, because the more satisfying we can make it, the more successful we will be at staying away from the thousands of carcinogens produced when you light the stuff on fire.
Tobacco is BAD. Everybody says so, so it must be true. Please- it's a leaf. It's the smoke that was killing you, not the leaf.
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