It is so interesting how posts have actual tone...I really like this particular tone.
WTA is the future
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It is so interesting how posts have actual tone...I really like this particular tone.
Thanks for the discussion guys! Nice to have some conversation without people getting all personal...
As to my earlier post, yes I agree, the cats out of the bag and of course we are ex smokers who simply make healthier choices.
And it is true that no matter how ya look at it for now vaping does still consume some things coming from tobacco.
I too chose vaping because of the health and costs...and my initial reason was the cost more than the health.
I tend to get worked up a bit, but it's only cuz I'm happy to be free of cigs, and i hate the idea of people pissing on that freedom. Of course eventually I expect ecigs to be taxed like hell too and by that point I may just throw in the towel...
And for the record, I shouldn't make posts before my morning coffee...I just re read my posts and I really sound like a cranky old man...so sorry for that folks
I would just hate to see this choice made unavailable to the public....
As to my earlier post, yes I agree, the cats out of the bag and of course we are ex smokers who simply make healthier choices.
And it is true that no matter how ya look at it for now vaping does still consume some things coming from tobacco.
I too chose vaping because of the health and costs...and my initial reason was the cost more than the health.
I tend to get worked up a bit, but it's only cuz I'm happy to be free of cigs, and i hate the idea of people pissing on that freedom. Of course eventually I expect ecigs to be taxed like hell too and by that point I may just throw in the towel...
And for the record, I shouldn't make posts before my morning coffee...I just re read my posts and I really sound like a cranky old man...so sorry for that folks
I would just hate to see this choice made unavailable to the public....
Aw, shucks...
But see, you kinda know how to read me, because you already know I can respect ludicrously vast differences of opinion.
I hope the person I was responding to reads it as friendly, too, because it's intended to be. I know we're all passionate, and that's a good thing. As long as we're listening and responding to what the other person actually says, I think we've got more to gain from even our differences.
I can certainly see why we as ex-smokers would on the one hand like to run far far away from Big Tobacco, and I see on the other the futility in that mindset that insists on associating tobacco itself with the crimes of Big Tobacco.
Thanks for the discussion guys! Nice to have some conversation without people getting all personal...
As to my earlier post, yes I agree, the cats out of the bag and of course we are ex smokers who simply make healthier choices.
And it is true that no matter how ya look at it for now vaping does still consume some things coming from tobacco.
I too chose vaping because of the health and costs...and my initial reason was the cost more than the health.
I tend to get worked up a bit, but it's only cuz I'm happy to be free of cigs, and i hate the idea of people pissing on that freedom. Of course eventually I expect ecigs to be taxed like hell too and by that point I may just throw in the towel...
And for the record, I shouldn't make posts before my morning coffee...I just re read my posts and I really sound like a cranky old man...so sorry for that folks
This topic can get pretty cranky all by itself- I posted somewhere once that I thought maybe WTA's actually just make you extremely grumpy. (I was kidding, stop throwing stuff at me, guys, ow)
I can agree with that, for sure. I don't think limiting people's options within this choice is a good idea either, you know? The more choices, the more freedom we have, the better.
I personally don't think I need WTAs... most of the time. Then I have a day like yesterday where everything from dawn to dusk fell apart on me and I had already had two crying jags before lunch and I would've mugged a nun for a marlboro (not to worry, there are no marlboro smoking nuns running around here- its a pretty good neighborhood), and those little "vape a ton and it'll go away" cravings didn't go away, and I was anxious and irritable and weepy all afternoon and it made me wonder what made my brain so sure a real cigarette would help when obviously, nicotine wasn't.
I had a pretty good Friday night, laughed a lot and blew off some steam, so I'm past the crisis for now, but I'm wondering if WTA's could've helped me deal with those stressful situations and emotions better than I did, and if it really could have helped, what that implies. If it's still ok to be addicted to nicotine, which in my mind, it is, why would it be not ok to still need some of the other things I used to get from tobacco? I'm still not sold on actually trying WTAs, but I'm definitely listening to the debate with interest, because, well, it's interesting.
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First of all, well stated Cobra.
As to screwbag, There's no way you can claim there's no tobacco in your liquid now, unless you're using 0 nic liquid.
I'll rework your second paragraph-
Vaping to me is a step in the wrong direction, it further endangers safe alternatives available on the market, giving more ammunition to those that would claim that all tobacco is dangerous. There are existing tobacco products, tested over decades and shown to be 98% safer than smoking. Products like Swedish snus for example. Now you bring anoth product on the market that has no significant testing, has been shown to explode on occasion and brings attention on itself by looking like smoking. A little press spin here and there and now we can't claim there are existing safe alternatives...we may as well just say I'm a smoker that's scared to use a lighter....
Ohai, I haven't had a drag on a cigarette in 2 years 5 months. For me, 4-5 portions of snus a day and I'm just finishing up a ml of WTA I loaded up last Sunday. That's my typical weekly usage at this point. In that nearly 2 1/2 years I really haven't thought about smoking except on two occasions. Nothing special was happening, I was just anxious. The one passed by the next day, but the second one lasted 2 or 3 days. I had a couple extra portions of snus, but really didn't vape that much more (hand to mouth was pretty well broken by that point. You really need something or will power when those moments strike and I believe it's good to know in advance what might help. I know regular nicquid wouldn't have worked for me even if I fired up 48mg nicquid constantly. I just would have OD'd on the nic overload.
The ANTZ will never win the war using the tactics they've used over the last several decades. Their success has slowed to a point that they may eradicate smoking in 200 years, if they're lucky. I'm really not even sure whether that is their goal at this point. They may just want to keep that money flowing to them.
If you really want to eliminate smoking, you do what they've been attempting all this time. Educating the kids. That should keep 70% from ever trying. However, you still have 30%, rebels and followers, that will smoke. A fairly decent percentage will keep smoking for some length of time. What you want to do is have viable, effective alternatives available when that young smoker WANTS to quit.
You don't accomplish that by taking all the much safer alternatives and attach the "xxxxxx is not a safe alternative to smoking" and make it appear that those other alternatives are MORE dangerous than smoking. They did that for decades when they knew those alternatives were actually much safer than smoking. It's time for that to stop.
If these ?non-profit? "health" associations really wanted to benefit the nations health, they would establish relative risks for all tobacco products and sell those statistics. Unfortunately, they are in bed with BP selling snake oil to the smoking public. It took me 43 years and a 2.5 PAD habit to educate myself to what was really happening and what was available. The more alternatives available, the better chance that a smoker that wants to quit will find one of the alternatives that works for them. There is no one size fits all approach that will get people to quit filling their lungs with smoke. However with an educated public, we have a better chance to quit earlier, live healthier, live longer, kill the economy with all the health costs of living a long medically aided life and crush the social security system (unless, that is, we raise the retirement age to say 84).
Does it make sense to want all us old people hanging around for decades? My mom's had four trips to the emergency room- one overnight, two several days and one nearly a week with a week rehab and we're only half way through the year. Last year between hospital and rehab, she was in close to 3 months, all on societies tab. Think about it.
The ANTZ will never win the war using the tactics they've used over the last several decades. Their success has slowed to a point that they may eradicate smoking in 200 years, if they're lucky. I'm really not even sure whether that is their goal at this point. They may just want to keep that money flowing to them.
If you really want to eliminate smoking, you do what they've been attempting all this time. Educating the kids. That should keep 70% from ever trying. However, you still have 30%, rebels and followers, that will smoke. A fairly decent percentage will keep smoking for some length of time. What you want to do is have viable, effective alternatives available when that young smoker WANTS to quit.
You don't accomplish that by taking all the much safer alternatives and attach the "xxxxxx is not a safe alternative to smoking" and make it appear that those other alternatives are MORE dangerous than smoking. They did that for decades when they knew those alternatives were actually much safer than smoking. It's time for that to stop.
If these ?non-profit? "health" associations really wanted to benefit the nations health, they would establish relative risks for all tobacco products and sell those statistics. Unfortunately, they are in bed with BP selling snake oil to the smoking public. It took me 43 years and a 2.5 PAD habit to educate myself to what was really happening and what was available. The more alternatives available, the better chance that a smoker that wants to quit will find one of the alternatives that works for them. There is no one size fits all approach that will get people to quit filling their lungs with smoke. However with an educated public, we have a better chance to quit earlier, live healthier, live longer, kill the economy with all the health costs of living a long medically aided life and crush the social security system (unless, that is, we raise the retirement age to say 84).
Does it make sense to want all us old people hanging around for decades? My mom's had four trips to the emergency room- one overnight, two several days and one nearly a week with a week rehab and we're only half way through the year. Last year between hospital and rehab, she was in close to 3 months, all on societies tab. Think about it.
You may be reading me wrong- you're not preaching to the opposition here- I don't object to WTA usage, or the use of snus or other tobacco extracts.
I appreciate you taking the time to tell your story and explain your point of view- it illustrates the need for more, not fewer choices, more, not less information, and the need to really hear each other when we're talking about it, too. It was a great thoughtful post, and I thank you for it.
I appreciate you taking the time to tell your story and explain your point of view- it illustrates the need for more, not fewer choices, more, not less information, and the need to really hear each other when we're talking about it, too. It was a great thoughtful post, and I thank you for it.
Ohai, no I didn't misread you I actually was replying off a post that I liked. Something is screwy either with ECF or my PC tonight, put I can't use the quick reply at the bottom of the page. I also can't edit my posts unless I copy my original post, hit edit, then paste it back and make corrections.
I actually was replying off a post that I liked. Something is screwy either with ECF or my PC tonight, put I can't use the quick reply at the bottom of the page. I also can't edit my posts unless I copy my original post, hit edit, then paste it back and make corrections.
Ohai, no I didn't misread you
If I am not mistaken, when rothenbj used the word "you," it was in reference to the universal "you," like "they."
Ohai, no I didn't misread you
I'm on a terrible old laptop that hates my browser- it does stuff like that to me all the time. It's also missing the q and h keys, so I occasionally get a little shock while I'm typing- keeps the forum pretty exciting for me!
Boys, boys, boys. So much pointless acrimony and wasted emotional energy going on here.
Within a year, the FDA will restrict e-liquid to three strengths: high (6ml), medium (3mg) and low (0mg), and a like number of flavor selections (tobacco, tobacco and tobacco). And those will be available only in M402 cartridges.
WTA? Surely you jest.
Within a year, the FDA will restrict e-liquid to three strengths: high (6ml), medium (3mg) and low (0mg), and a like number of flavor selections (tobacco, tobacco and tobacco). And those will be available only in M402 cartridges.
WTA? Surely you jest.
But I've got my snus to keep me warm.
AND, with that, I can vape 0 nic just to p*** em off!
Well ours is a cottage industry of sorts, but so is the snus industry, and that's been around for quite a while. So I don't really think that we're threatened too much here, at least not as long as we don't want to be.
This all works so well because governments haven't interfered, not because of it. As silly as it is to want trials of WTA, or for that matter, nic juice, this would be the reality, and more, if governments had their way.
What makes vaping rather unique though is is that it is substituting for a product that is by any view a horribly dangerous way to enjoy tobacco. While we can mitigate the damage and harmfulness to quite a degree, and in spite of much of the negative propaganda out there being strongly biased, not even I would argue that smoking tobacco is pretty harmful to your health.
So this serious harm serves as the backdrop that we need to look comparatively with as far as the potential risks of vaping are concerned. If this were a new product, and smoking never existed, then we might want to be more thorough and prudent here where it comes to vaping in general. The government cannot think in such relative terms though, so they would view all of this as condoning or not, versus not using tobacco at all, rather than being neutral as they are now. So neutral is what we need.
Where WTA is concerned, we're talking some other nicotine related substances that are added in there to make the experience more similar to smoking. So, as is the case with vaping in general, there isn't any reason to believe that these extra substances now makes vaping more harmful than smoking. What does us in with smoking is the smoke, although I'm not so sure that he "extras" that tobacco companies add play a very big role as well.
In any case, with WTA, we're talking about alterations that are like adding salt to a bowl of soup to make it taste better, and it's still soup. Maybe it might be a tad healthier without the salt but some people need salt to make their food taste good. I sure do.
Eating soup and eating poison are two different things essentially though. That's exactly what smoking is of course. We not only introduce poisons in our body that are unique to combustion, which is why smoking definitely is more unhealthy than using tobacco in any other form. The smoke also constantly injures our lungs, which are a pretty important organ.
I smoked for 34 years and mine held up pretty well, and it was only during the last couple of years that they showed their signs of wear, as they protested to my continuing to smoke by making me cough quite often. They don't cough anymore by the way, and they are happy with this WTA juice, as am I. That's all the trials that I need.
I hear a lot of people speak of WTA in terms of need, but what we need to do is open our minds a bit more than that. This should not be something that is seen as a necessary evil, and it's probably the case that most vapers could benefit from it, not necessarily to fight cravings but to be happier. That's really what it's all about. We're way ahead of smoking, way way ahead, either way.
This all works so well because governments haven't interfered, not because of it. As silly as it is to want trials of WTA, or for that matter, nic juice, this would be the reality, and more, if governments had their way.
What makes vaping rather unique though is is that it is substituting for a product that is by any view a horribly dangerous way to enjoy tobacco. While we can mitigate the damage and harmfulness to quite a degree, and in spite of much of the negative propaganda out there being strongly biased, not even I would argue that smoking tobacco is pretty harmful to your health.
So this serious harm serves as the backdrop that we need to look comparatively with as far as the potential risks of vaping are concerned. If this were a new product, and smoking never existed, then we might want to be more thorough and prudent here where it comes to vaping in general. The government cannot think in such relative terms though, so they would view all of this as condoning or not, versus not using tobacco at all, rather than being neutral as they are now. So neutral is what we need.
Where WTA is concerned, we're talking some other nicotine related substances that are added in there to make the experience more similar to smoking. So, as is the case with vaping in general, there isn't any reason to believe that these extra substances now makes vaping more harmful than smoking. What does us in with smoking is the smoke, although I'm not so sure that he "extras" that tobacco companies add play a very big role as well.
In any case, with WTA, we're talking about alterations that are like adding salt to a bowl of soup to make it taste better, and it's still soup. Maybe it might be a tad healthier without the salt but some people need salt to make their food taste good. I sure do.
Eating soup and eating poison are two different things essentially though. That's exactly what smoking is of course. We not only introduce poisons in our body that are unique to combustion, which is why smoking definitely is more unhealthy than using tobacco in any other form. The smoke also constantly injures our lungs, which are a pretty important organ.
I smoked for 34 years and mine held up pretty well, and it was only during the last couple of years that they showed their signs of wear, as they protested to my continuing to smoke by making me cough quite often. They don't cough anymore by the way, and they are happy with this WTA juice, as am I. That's all the trials that I need.
I hear a lot of people speak of WTA in terms of need, but what we need to do is open our minds a bit more than that. This should not be something that is seen as a necessary evil, and it's probably the case that most vapers could benefit from it, not necessarily to fight cravings but to be happier. That's really what it's all about. We're way ahead of smoking, way way ahead, either way.
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I never meant to imply that there is not tobacco in what we vape, I'm not that misinformed. I'm simply trying to express my personal desire to distance myself from the tobacco industry wherever possible. And of course I don't mean to lump ALL tobacco into that statement I just mean the big cigarette companies. I'm not an anti smoke nazi, and I am a long time cigar collector. And even as a vaper I do enjoy a cigar on occasion.
And you guys are right, perhaps in the long run, more choice and alternatives really is the goal I think.
As to snus, my only gripe with it is people leaving those little pouches lying all over the place. When I lived in Sweden I was always getting them stuck in my shoes, or finding the drinking fountains full of em. Of course those are the same type of people who insist on wiping boogers on the walls...hahaha
Any proof that this is going to happen. Or just a theory?
Cobra, just a bit curious. how much did your cough correlate to the introduction of FSC into your cigarettes. Mine had a direct correlation and one of the reasons I quit.
That's rather strange since Swedish snus cans generally have an "ashtray" type compartment to put the dead portions in for later disposal. That's one of my dislikes about the Americanized version. They don't have that lid. I bought and carry a stainless steel can with that "ashtray" that acts as my disposal until I find a trash can.
I have been surprised by how much the Swedes snus, it's more like smoking with can a day habits. A can lasts me almost a week.
I looked this up on the internet just so I wouldn't seem unhip and my best guess as far as what FSC is would be fire safe cigarettes. I've never heard of that up until now as I'm from Canada and ours will still burn down the house no problem, which actually sounds like a good thing compared to even more poison in them.
Oddly enough I started coughing when I started both vaping and smoking. More specifically, when I got my Darwin almost a year ago. I've learned to turn down the voltage since, and together with quitting smoking I've resolved that
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