Your opinion: Teachers or Board?

[Elendil]

The teachers in our area are into their 2nd week on strike. I am looking to gather opinions on who you side with.

First here are some factual figures from the area and the specific school district.

County unemployment rate: 10.8%
Average salary for those teachers on strike: $68,000/yr
Current premium paid by teachers for single health ins coverage: $0
Current premium paid by teachers for family health ins coverage: $0

The district self-insures and this is the last 4 years of total paid claims by current provider:

2005-2006: $1,113,440

2006-2007: $1,324,249

2007-2008: $1,191,822

2008-2009: $1,993,256

2009-2010: $2,825,223**

** This is an anticipated claim amount for the coming school year, as estimated by the third-party administrator of the plan. However, on average the claim amount ends up being less than the anticipated amount.



Here is what each side has last offered:

Teachers

$0 monthly premium for individual ins coverage
$12 monthly premium for family coverage
3 year raise schedule of $1600, $1600, $1700 (equivilent to a 4.67% increase)


Board of Education

$0 monthly premium for individual ins coverage
$172 monthly premium for family coverage (This represents 20% of the cost diff between individual and family coverage. It would be capped at $215 in the 2nd year and $269 in the 3rd year)
1% raise each year over the next 3 years
$350 wellness benefit for each covered person on the insurance. Can be used for anything not covered by current policy. (deductibles, etc)


This boards offer cam first. The teachers then struck and 4 days later came back with their offer, which the board rejected. There have been no new proposals by either side.

Who's side would you take?

 

[Drunkwaco]

IMO 68,000 a year is very good pay. you can afford your own damn insurance with that kind of money. just think if both parents were teachers making the 68,000 each. that's a very nice house income. When i was still in my dream of being a teacher(i lost that dream now) i knew the i would not be doing it for the money. I say screw them. any extra cash goes to the school to increase learning and sports

 

[Rusty]

I am an experienced bog standard teacher in the UK - I feel like I'm well paid and have great holidays. I am not wanting to substantially increase my pay and benefits but if the Unions push for it - BONUS!!.

However, I'm always on the workers side in any dispute - because I'm a worker, I pay taxes and I support a substantial number of people in my country with my money via tax.

Work is a good thing - support people who work and give something back to society in any field of WORK.

Sort out the others!! - Withdraw their benefits or make them work.

 

[Kate51]

Sorry, teachers, but the Board of Education must rule.
They are the ones who are trying (with a large failure rate) to keep schools running on bugets as dictated by tax levies. Well, that's in a perfect world.
You want more benefits, I would suggest your UNION be the one to offer group insurance coverage, you buy it from them, not free from taxpayers who can't afford their own insurance.
Unions are a great thing.

 

[BARENETTED]

I respect teachers but have to ask - why are you so high above the majority of US workers? We are in tough times. Everyone has to sacrifice. We (in my company) have had massive layoffs and no raises in 2 years. They have deferred our 401K company match to AUGUST OF THE FOLLOWING YEAR! That's right, they accrue it and we don't get it till almost a year after the end of the year. I am just happy to be working. We are all paying healthy premiums for our healthcare. I am tired of paying for yours. Time to dig into your own pocket for yourself.

 

[sherid]

The teachers in our area are into their 2nd week on strike. I am looking to gather opinions on who you side with.

First here are some factual figures from the area and the specific school district.

County unemployment rate: 10.8%
Average salary for those teachers on strike: $68,000/yr
Current premium paid by teachers for single health ins coverage: $0
Current premium paid by teachers for family health ins coverage: $0

The district self-insures and this is the last 4 years of total paid claims by current provider:

2005-2006: $1,113,440

2006-2007: $1,324,249

2007-2008: $1,191,822

2008-2009: $1,993,256

2009-2010: $2,825,223**

** This is an anticipated claim amount for the coming school year, as estimated by the third-party administrator of the plan. However, on average the claim amount ends up being less than the anticipated amount.



Here is what each side has last offered:

Teachers

$0 monthly premium for individual ins coverage
$12 monthly premium for family coverage
3 year raise schedule of $1600, $1600, $1700 (equivilent to a 4.67% increase)


Board of Education

$0 monthly premium for individual ins coverage
$172 monthly premium for family coverage (This represents 20% of the cost diff between individual and family coverage. It would be capped at $215 in the 2nd year and $269 in the 3rd year)
1% raise each year over the next 3 years
$350 wellness benefit for each covered person on the insurance. Can be used for anything not covered by current policy. (deductibles, etc)


This boards offer cam first. The teachers then struck and 4 days later came back with their offer, which the board rejected. There have been no new proposals by either side.

Who's side would you take?

I will throw some thoughts into the mix since I am a retired but re-employed teacher who has been on strike twice during my career. First question I would ask is about median salary. Is the $68000 the actual salary or is it the salary with said benefits included to reach that salary? I ask that because my salary at an online school is $32000 a year. However, the school uses the benefits package to arrive at a reported salary of $42000. I pay about $200 a month for me and two kids health care. My husband is a retired teacher and pays his own policy because to add him to my policy would be way too expensive.

My highest salary at MA level and 30 years experience was $53000 a year plus benefits which would have taken me to near that number you talk about. I never saw anything close to that salary in my paycheck however. Now, one must compare apples to oranges. Most teachers who reach the top of the scale have worked for three decades and are required to earn a Masters' Degree to continue being licensed. So, one asks how many professions with a graduate degree and continuous employment and 25-30 years on the job earn a median salary of $68000? My guess is nearly all such careers with those requirements earn way more than that.

One must also look at how the median salary was reached. My guess is that there is a majority of teachers at the school who have 20-30 years' experience, thus the salary you name. Most strikes happen not because of the teachers making over 60 grand but rather because of the other half of the staff who have 1-10 years experience and are probably making $30,000 to $40,000 a year. Those are the teachers with young families who have college loans from undergraduate school and then additional loans from graduate school. Remember, teachers must earn a Masters within five years of graduation, so there is no downtime from paying off the first set of loans. It is nearly impossible for one wage earner to support a young family and pay off two sets of loans on $40,000 a year. Thus, the teachers are on strike, not for those who make $68,000 but instead for those who are attempting to survive on $40,000.

Before anyone pipes in with, "but you get 3 mos. off in the summer," I call bull. You USED to get 3 mos. off. Now, teachers are lucky to get one month off since nearly all of us have to either be in graduate school in the summer or participate in ongoing professional development during the summer. Since I know many professionals with similar experience and education who routinely have similar or better vacation packages, the point is outdated and moot. So, examine the story behind the story. The Board wants the public to believe that all teachers make $70,000 a year and are greedy .....es wanting more and more. While examining the issue, ask what the Superintendent, the Asst. Superintendents, the Curriculum Directors, the Athletic Directors, etc. etc. make each year and what THEIR benefit package is. They don't want to give up their six figure incomes, and they sure don't want to publish them if not called to do so. They will, however skew the numbers in any way possible to make the teachers look ungrateful so that they will get back to the classroom and avoid the black eye that a school strike creates for the BOE.

I agree that now is not the time for anyone to strike, but that was not really the issue here.

 

[sherid]

I would ask that any of you who feel teachers do not deserve their pay to simply try the job for a week. I am serious. Go to the high school, volunteer your services for a week as a high school teacher and report back here. I have worked in inner city schools and spent some time in the suburbs. Over the years I have had three murderers in class, witnessed two shootings in the hall outside my room, watched teachers carried out on stretchers after being assaulted, saw an armed robbery of the cafeteria and a separate riot in the cafeteria that closed school for two days, a teacher assaulted with a machete, the principal held at gunpoint by a parent, drug sales in the hidden maze of hallways in a large school, etc. etc. etc. If you think you can do it better and for less money, go DO it. I am fed up with teacher bashings and am happy that I can now teach from the privacy of my own home without having to hear it. GO out there and do it yourself for $30,000 a year. Do you think you will be able to pay for that graduate degree that you HAVE to earn in five years after starting teaching on that salary? If you cannot, then you will have to find another job. As for two teachers earning those salaries, so WHAT? Two doctors, two engineers, two lawyers as wage earners would be more than three or four times the salary as two teachers. Except for the doctors, none of those professions require any more education, and they sure do not have to duck and cover during a school shooting.

 

[Elendil]

sherid, you ask some legit questions and I will do my best to answer them.

The 68,000 is the average salary not including benefits.
The mean salary is 64,000


The sticking point in the strike is the insurance. As I showed in my post, the claims paid are rising dramatically. This particular school district is facing a $1,000,000,000 deficit. The board is proposing that the teachers start picking up a portion of the family coverage. They are asking a teacher to pay 20% of the difference between individual and family coverage. However they are offering the $350 wellness benefit to help offset the burden on the teachers.

The problem comes in when this district is comapred to neighboring district of similar size in similar communites. These teachers average about 12k/yr higher compensation and they contribute nothing towards insurance while some teachers in neighboring districts contribute up to 50% of the cost.

The teachers have created a bit of a PR nightmare for themselves. Posting vids on youtube and with local radio interviews that tend to make them seem greedy.

normally, it may not have been a big issue, however, the insurance issue coupled with the current economic conditions are definitely working against the teachers.

 

[Elendil]

I don't think many people are saying teaching isn't difficult, however as is often the case, the union tends to be a bit overzealous in their pursuit of maximizing the deal for their members.

I have never understood the union mentality (for any union, not just teachers) that all of their members are entitled to a raise every year. Sometimes economic conditions dictate what can and cannot be done.

 

[sherid]

sherid, you ask some legit questions and I will do my best to answer them.

The 68,000 is the average salary not including benefits.
The mean salary is 64,000


The sticking point in the strike is the insurance. As I showed in my post, the claims paid are rising dramatically. This particular school district is facing a $1,000,000,000 deficit. The board is proposing that the teachers start picking up a portion of the family coverage. They are asking a teacher to pay 20% of the difference between individual and family coverage. However they are offering the $350 wellness benefit to help offset the burden on the teachers.

The problem comes in when this district is comapred to neighboring district of similar size in similar communites. These teachers average about 12k/yr higher compensation and they contribute nothing towards insurance while some teachers in neighboring districts contribute up to 50% of the cost.

The teachers have created a bit of a PR nightmare for themselves. Posting vids on youtube and with local radio interviews that tend to make them seem greedy.

normally, it may not have been a big issue, however, the insurance issue coupled with the current economic conditions are definitely working against the teachers.

As I said, most strikes are not about those making $64,000. It is about those making 40,000 during the most expensive years of raising children and paying back college loans. What is the starting salary at the school, and what does the teacher with 5-10 years of experience make? What is the cost of living in the district where the school is located?

 

[sherid]

I don't think many people are saying teaching isn't difficult, however as is often the case, the union tends to be a bit overzealous in their pursuit of maximizing the deal for their members.

I have never understood the union mentality (for any union, not just teachers) that all of their members are entitled to a raise every year. Sometimes economic conditions dictate what can and cannot be done.

I am no longer in a union, but I was for all of the years I taught in the public schools. To say that all teachers get raises every year is wrong. Many years went by when no one in my school got a raise because of the economic conditions at the time. Unions may ask for a raise, but that does not mean it will be granted. Teachers strikes occur only as last resorts. There will always be .......s during strikes. Once a bus driver gunned his bus at the strike line where I was standing. You are seeing the truth from the perspective of the BOE and the media. It is similar to hearing about e cigs through the eyes of ASH and the media that backs it.

 

[Elendil]

You are seeing the truth from the perspective of the BOE and the media. It is similar to hearing about e cigs through the eyes of ASH and the media that backs it.

I would only say that the numbers are the numbers. You can't "spin" 12k more per year than comparible districts and contributing 0 for insurance.

 

[sherid]

I would only say that the numbers are the numbers. You can't "spin" 12k more per year than comparible districts and contributing 0 for insurance.

As I said, send the parents in to do the job then. If you feel the teachers make too much, replace them with custodial people without required Masters degrees and allow them to make what they can of the education system. If I am a nurse at the Cleveland Clinic, it is likely that I will make more and have better benefits than a nurse at Metropolitan Hospital. I am sure that, in the end, the teachers will lose what the BOE wants them to lose.

 

[WS23]

Not sure how they come up with those pay figures because no teachers I know make that kind of money and the health insurance is not good. I think they average in all of the overpayed idiots at the state level, and to get a real idea of a teachers salary you need to look at teachers only. I have been teaching in the public school system for seven years and I make about $32,000. We don't even carry the insurance offered because it doesn't cover anything and the deductible is very high. However, I knew when I started into education I wouldn't be making $$.

 

[sherid]

So, I am assuming that this is the strike and district you are talking about.
The Illinois Education Association union lawyers filed the ULP Tuesday to the IDOL. The ULP includes two charges against the board—regressive bargaining and conditional bargaining.



The first charge, regressive bargaining, is an illegal practice and occurs when a party makes a proposal that reduces the value of the proposal previously brought to the table. Walton said the board did this last Thursday night, Oct. 1, when they proposed a pre-existing clause to the teachers’ negotiation committee, which would not cover pre-existing conditions for teachers hired in the 2009-2010 school year and beyond.



The teachers insurance currently does not have a pre-existing clause, according to Brenda O’Donnel, chief financial officer for OTHS. Such an addition would result in a reduction of benefits, Walton said.



The second charge, conditional bargaining, is an illegal bargaining practice that occurs when one party sets conditions to negotiations. Any measure that would hamper bargaining would be considered illegal.


The board incorporated caps to that amount during the Oct. 1 meeting—fixed at $172.11 per month for plan year 2009-10, not to exceed $215 per month for plan year 2010-11 and not to exceed $269 per month in insurance plan year 2011-12. So, that is significant and amounts to a $269 monthly cut in pay.


Their current policy does not include preventative care including: routine physicals, birth control and contraception, birth/well baby hospital care costs, vaccinations, preventative screenings and biopsies. The teachers also posted on their Web site that they are considered under-insured when concerning vision and dental.



The teachers proposed a monthly contribution during the Oct. 1 meeting, only after the board proposed a wellness package that would provide preventative care. The wellness package would be covered 100 percent by the board and would pay a limit of $350 per covered participant per calendar year. So, that wellness package would not come close to covering vaccinations, preventive care and testing, etc.

Teachers are good-hearted, dedicated, hard-working people,” Walton said. “They want to get back to work under contract that allows them to stay at Ottawa High School and take care of their own families… We’re available at any time. All the board has to do is look out the window—we’re there and ready to negotiate.”

Ottawa Delivered

 

[BARENETTED]

HMM - You guys need to come to NJ and teach!

 

[Elendil]

Sherid, I don't mean any offense, but your attitude is seems pretty representative of the teachers that are on strike. It is pretty hard to get anywhere when the first assumption is the guy is out to screw you no matter what.

It seems to be about burden sharing. The taxpayers have to come up with the $$ to overcome the deficit and the teachers seem not to want to acknowledge that we are in some difficult economic times and that a little sacrifice is needed to see everyone through the tough times. Most folks in the private secotr sacrifice without having any input into the decision, while the teachers actually have some voice in the process.

 

[sherid]

Sherid, I don't mean any offense, but your attitude is seems pretty representative of the teachers that are on strike. It is pretty hard to get anywhere when the first assumption is the guy is out to screw you no matter what.

It seems to be about burden sharing. The taxpayers have to come up with the $$ to overcome the deficit and the teachers seem not to want to acknowledge that we are in some difficult economic times and that a little sacrifice is needed to see everyone through the tough times. Most folks in the private secotr sacrifice without having any input into the decision, while the teachers actually have some voice in the process.

Well, no offense taken since my position is with the teachers. The $269 per month insurance cost for benefits that deny coverage for pre-existing conditions and does not cover routine tests and preventive care amounts to a $3000 per year pay cut. If new teachers with conditions such as diabetes hire into the district, they will not be covered under the board proposal. That, of course, could amount to non-coverage for catastrophic illnesses such as heart disease caused by diabetes. Even for someone making the $68000 a year, that would mean bankruptcy as well as denial of care from many health facilities. So, the $350 wellness program offered by the board is a nothing offer. There is no raise in this package. There is only a REDUCTION in salary due to the increased insurance payment and the denial of pre-existing conditions.

 

[sherid]

HMM - You guys need to come to NJ and teach!

The problem is that although NJ salaries are way higher than Ohio teacher salaries, so is the cost of living. Thus, teachers in Ohio probably most likely have nearly as much disposable income as NJ teachers have. I say that in a general sense though since I am sure there are exceptions.

 

[lordmage]

all i can say on this is simple. if i understand it correctly
everyone is always after more money in their pocket without realizing where it could come from. i think the teachers side while valid to them forgets that compared to most people that is a great deal the board offers.
which i will copy here and compare it to mine in BOLD

$0 monthly premium for individual ins coverage
i pay about 170 month just for me
$172 monthly premium for family coverage (This represents 20% of the cost diff between individual and family coverage. It would be capped at $215 in the 2nd year and $269 in the 3rd year) Family coverage is much higher like 400 hundred range
1% raise each year over the next 3 years
$350 wellness benefit for each covered person on the insurance. Can be used for anything not covered by current policy. (deductibles, etc) don't have that but if i wanted i could get a FSA-Flexible spending account at my cost

now when i look at that i would jump for it. most teachers who are married get family coverage and cover the whole family and i think it is fair to ask them to pay more.
most teacher paychecks are paid Thur Taxes of some sorts so giving them a large raise would only increase taxes by leaving the increase small it allows for easier budget management from year to year to reduce the effect on taxes.