FDA Zeller Actually Lets the Truth Slip Out - Let's Pay Attention

[DC2]

wiki: "Phillip Morris currently lists all taxes, including federal, state, local, and sales taxes, as 56.6% of the total cost of a pack of cigarettes." From 2011 and the tax is even more now. And that's an average. Their cost is $2.60 a pack, up from $2.20/pack in @ 2000.

So basically the government gets somewhere between $3.00 and $6.00 in taxes per pack of cigarettes?
So if people switch to vaping, and the government loses that tax...

Well, how many packs of cigarettes are there in a 30ml bottle?
And how much would they have to tax e-Liquid to make up for the lost cigarette taxes?

I've always considered 6 drops to be a cigarette, and maybe around 30 drops is one milliliter?
So then that would be around 5 cigarettes per milliliter, which would be 150 cigarettes in a 30ml bottle?

So then that would be around 7.5 packs of cigarettes, give or take?
So they would need to tax a 30ml of eliquid at around $22.50 to $45 to make up for lost cigarette taxes?

Am I missing something here?

I'm having a really hard time trying to believe that the government would not MUCH rather kill electronic cigarettes than tax them.
Taxing them would be a poor alternative to killing them.

Nobody is going to pay that much for eliquid.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Am I missing something here?

I'm having a really hard time trying to believe that the government would not MUCH rather kill electronic cigarettes than tax them.
Taxing them would be a poor alternative to killing them.

Nobody is going to pay that much for eLiquid.

But Don't you See the Problem DC2, the Government Let things go Too Long.

And Now there are Studies, Respectable Studies, that say that e-Cigarettes are Viable Harm Reduction. And Pose Very Little Risk, if Any, to anyone other than the User.

Why do you think the FDA Acted with an Iron Fist the First Time. Because they Knew if they Couldn't Put Out this Fire Quickly, it was Going to Spread. Sure, it might help People? But at what Cost? Billons of Lost Tax Revenue. I Don't think that sat well with Too Many People in Government.

And if it turned out that e-Cigarettes were Not as Evil as they are Trying to make them, that they Wouldn't be able to Ban them down the Road as a Health Hazard.

There is an Old Saying about things you Don't Like... "If you Can't Ban It, Tax the Hell Out of It."

But before they could Tax it, they Had to Regulate it. And that is what they are Doing Right Now.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Nobody is going to pay that much for eLiquid.

They aren't going to Just Jump in and Slam Cigarette equivalent Taxes on e-Cigarettes from the Get Go. It will be Modest at first.

Pull the Reins too Tight and the Horse will Buck.

Let the Market Grow. Let BT recoup some Profits. And just keep Slowly Squeezing the Turnip. Year After Year.

 

[Kent C]

DC2:So basically the government gets somewhere between $3.00 and $6.00 in taxes per pack of cigarettes?

Close enough

So if people switch to vaping, and the government loses that tax...

They are and they are.

Well, how many packs of cigarettes are there in a 30ml bottle?
And how much would they have to tax e-Liquid to make up for the lost cigarette taxes?

I've always considered 6 drops to be a cigarette, and maybe around 30 drops is one milliliter?
So then that would be around 5 cigarettes per milliliter, which would be 150 cigarettes in a 30ml bottle?

So then that would be around 7.5 packs of cigarettes, give or take?
So they would need to tax a 30ml of eLiquid at around $22.50 to $45 to make up for lost cigarette taxes?

Am I missing something here?

Roly said it best here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-nicotine-tobacco-cigarettes.html#post5680359

But, sounds good to me. I went with what I smoked vs. what I vape now rather than breaking it down per cig, per puff....

I'm having a really hard time trying to believe that the government would not MUCH rather kill electronic cigarettes than tax them.
Taxing them would be a poor alternative to killing them.

If they 'killed them' and they didn't go away...existing product or black market.... cig sales would still decline as would tax revenues....just not as fast.

Nobody is going to pay that much for eLiquid.

This is where creeping ......ism comes in. In 1960 no one would have paid a $1.00 a pack for cigarettes, but in 1980 they would and did. In 1980, no one would have paid $3/pack but in 2000 they did. In 2000 no one would have paid $6/pack but in 2014 they do. I'd expect a similar scheme for taxing eliquid although the first shot may be strong, but the increases will eventually match what cigs brought and more.

 

[Nate760]

Bear in mind also, at the state level, it's not as simple as directly replacing tobacco tax revenue with tax revenue from e-cigs and liquid. Each state first has to change their health code so that the relevant items are considered "tobacco products," then they have to change their tax code so the excise revenue on the newly taxed products is able to plug whatever gap has been created by the decrease in tobacco tax revenue.

 

[aikanae1]

In an effort to understand the issue from the FDA's standpoint I ran across these FDA reports to Congress. I encourage those that have not read these to do so in their entirety. They certainly enlightened me to why Mr Zeller replied in certain ways to questions including the "all" and "completely" in the statement he made ("If we could get all of those people [who can't or wont quit smoking conventional cigarettes] to completely switch all of their cigarettes to the non-combustible products that would be good for public health.") that originally started this thread and to what standards product applications would be held to.

As a side note it is interesting that it is mentioned that BP requested changing (and has subsequently been allowed to do so) the labeling on their OTC NRT's for continued use and dual use because e-cigarettes were encroaching on their market.

"Participants in the December 17 hearing also argued that OTC NRTs are currently perceived by tobacco users as less appealing than other, more novel nicotine-containing products (such as electronic cigarettes), in part because of the NRTs’ specific directions for use and other statements set forth in the labeling."

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/UCM371271.pdf

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/UCM348930.pdf

Wow. I managed to work my way through the last document and IMO there's a lot there that's been bouncing round the forum. I'm hoping someone else can offer their ........ notes version. It's a long winded document.

 

[AndriaD]

I Wouldn't set my Time Line for Getting Prepared for Regulations based on the Past.

Not say'n that the Government is a Well Oiled Machine. It Isn't. Or that they do Everything in a Timely Manor. They Don't.

Just that it is Better to have a Frig Full of Nicotine Base and a Box Full of Hardware Now verses Later.

I agree; in the next 2 yrs, I plan to stockpile a lot of PVs, batteries, kayfuns, and 100mg nicotine base to put in the freezer. No freaking way am I going back to cigalikes.

They can have my PV+kayfun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

I agree; in the next 2 yrs, I plan to stockpile a lot of PVs, batteries, kayfuns, and 100mg nicotine base to put in the freezer. No freaking way am I going back to cigalikes.

They can have my PV+kayfun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.

Andria

I would do the Nicotine Base 1st. And consider doing it by the Time the Public Comment Period is Over.

I know People say This. And I know People say That about what and how long it is going to take the FDA to do something Effecting Hardware.

But Not Much is clearly Understood about e-Lquids. And that is the Part that Goes into a users Body.

So Once the FDA has dotted all the I's and Crossed all the T's, and it is in the Federal Registry, the FDA will have Legal Powers to do things.

And I think their First Action will be Against e-Liquids.

 

[Stosh]

I have another shipment expected delivery today...
Pack it into the freezer, and add the quantity to my spreadsheet, it tracks how long the supply will last at different mL per day, mg per mL, and mg per mL of the concentrate....

I would do the Nicotine Base 1st. And consider doing it by the Time the Public Comment Period is Over.

I know People say This. And I know People say That about what and how long it is going to take the FDA to do something Effecting Hardware.

But Not Much is clearly Understood about e-Lquids. And that is the Part that Goes into a users Body.

So Once the FDA has dotted all the I's and Crossed all the T's, and it is in the Federal Registry, the FDA will have Legal Powers to do things.

And I think their First Action will be Against e-Liquids.

 

[Kent C]

I would do the Nicotine Base 1st. And consider doing it by the Time the Public Comment Period is Over.

I know People say This. And I know People say That about what and how long it is going to take the FDA to do something Effecting Hardware.

But Not Much is clearly Understood about e-Lquids. And that is the Part that Goes into a users Body.

So Once the FDA has dotted all the I's and Crossed all the T's, and it is in the Federal Registry, the FDA will have Legal Powers to do things.

And I think their First Action will be Against e-Liquids.

Agree. As far as stockpiling goes. It depends on where one is at with 'trying new stuff'. If you've nailed down 'your' device, that you know you could vape forever, then there is no downside on buying bulk if you have present time cash flow to handle it. And with some vendors, bulk buys will bring down your price point - heaven gifts for me, but I've had a long term relationship with them that gives me discounts as well - And you'll eventually use it. Eliquids, same story. DIY helps a lot, but only if you can duplicate premixes you like. If you can find a vendor who does both premix and DIY/flavoring - that's a good set up for buying bulk eliquids. Then find Kurt's threads on how to store in the eliquid/DIY forums.

 

[zoiDman]

I think (just me - Don't bet Your Future on what you are about to hear) that Hardware will be the Lest effect are of the Coming Regs.

And even in states where Smoking some things is Completely Illegal, you can still walk into Certain Stores and by All Kinds of "Tobacco" Pipes. And Papers to Roll "Cigarettes".

I think we will see Shades of this with e-Cigarette hardware. Can the FDA Restrict and Enforce sales Restrictions for Products Sold to Adults to be Used ONLY with 0mg? As I understand the FDA Authority, it Ends when there is No Tobacco Products involved.

But e-Liquids are Completely Different.

And I personally are Not Willing to Bet My Vaping Livelihood on someone saying on a Forum that the FDA is Going to take 2 years to Do Anything with e-Liquids. I'm planning on Something happening with e-Liquids AS SOON as they have the Legal Authority to do it.

And if I'm Wrong, well, I guess I just will have a Boat Load of Nicotine Base laying around.

But if I'm Right, and the FDA Takes some Drastic Emergency Measure, well...

 

[Kent C]

I think (just me - Don't bet Your Future on what you are about to hear) that Hardware will be the Lest effect are of the Coming Regs.

And even in states where Smoking some things is Completely Illegal, you can still walk into Certain Stores and by All Kinds of "Tobacco" Pipes. And Papers to Roll "Cigarettes".

I think we will see Shades of this with e-Cigarette hardware. Can the FDA Restrict and Enforce sales Restrictions for Products Sold to Adults to be Used ONLY with 0mg? As I understand the FDA Authority, it Ends when there is No Tobacco Products involved.

But e-Liquids are Completely Different.

And I personally are Not Willing to Bet My Vaping Livelihood on someone saying on a Forum that the FDA is Going to take 2 years to Do Anything with e-Liquids. I'm planning on Something happening with e-Liquids AS SOON as they have the Legal Authority to do it.

And if I'm Wrong, well, I guess I just will have a Boat Load of Nicotine Base laying around.

But if I'm Right, and the FDA Takes some Drastic Emergency Measure, well...

In the deeming doc, they've defined accessories as 'tobacco products' but as has been said, they can't touch non-proprietary batteries, but they may touch anything, eg. with a 510 connection - both batt and clearo. Depends how tight they want to make the noose. I don't think they'd go there but I'd never say they 'can't'.

 

[Fitzie]

I think (just me - Don't bet Your Future on what you are about to hear) that Hardware will be the Lest effect are of the Coming Regs.

And even in states where Smoking some things is Completely Illegal, you can still walk into Certain Stores and by All Kinds of "Tobacco" Pipes. And Papers to Roll "Cigarettes".

I think we will see Shades of this with e-Cigarette hardware. Can the FDA Restrict and Enforce sales Restrictions for Products Sold to Adults to be Used ONLY with 0mg? As I understand the FDA Authority, it Ends when there is No Tobacco Products involved.

But e-Liquids are Completely Different.

And I personally are Not Willing to Bet My Vaping Livelihood on someone saying on a Forum that the FDA is Going to take 2 years to Do Anything with e-Liquids. I'm planning on Something happening with e-Liquids AS SOON as they have the Legal Authority to do it.

And if I'm Wrong, well, I guess I just will have a Boat Load of Nicotine Base laying around.

But if I'm Right, and the FDA Takes some Drastic Emergency Measure, well...

I agree totally (and have been acting accordingly). I'm new to vaping (haven't settled on a device; don't have an ADV; etc), but I think e-liquids are key. Heck, I don't even have to wait for the FDA on that - New York wants to ban e-liquids for sale to adults right now.

I've started stockpiling nicotine since New York's present insanity (even if the law doesn't pass this session, who knows when some legislator won't bring it up again or try to extend the proposed sales ban to mere possession of e-liquid with nicotine in it).

 

[zoiDman]

I agree totally (and have been acting accordingly). I'm new to vaping (haven't settled on a device; don't have an ADV; etc), but I think e-liquids are key. Heck, I don't even have to wait for the FDA on that - New York wants to ban e-liquids for sale to adults right now.

I've started stockpiling nicotine since New York's present insanity (even if the law doesn't pass this session, who knows when some legislator won't bring it up again or try to extend the proposed sales ban to mere possession of e-liquid with nicotine in it).

Yeah... The Finer Points of Hardware can be Debated at Ad Infinitum.

But having a Couple Liters of 100mg sitting around is Hard to Argue Against.

 

[Gato del Jugo]

In the deeming doc, they've defined accessories as 'tobacco products' but as has been said, they can't touch non-proprietary batteries, but they may touch anything, eg. with a 510 connection - both batt and clearo. Depends how tight they want to make the noose. I don't think they'd go there but I'd never say they 'can't'.

If the FDA tries to push it too far, they'll end up bringing even more enemies -- & lawsuits -- into the fray...

 

[zoiDman]

This Is Critical: Please Pass it Along NOW

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ll-call-campaign-california.html#post13211582

 

[AndriaD]

I would do the Nicotine Base 1st. And consider doing it by the Time the Public Comment Period is Over.

I know People say This. And I know People say That about what and how long it is going to take the FDA to do something Effecting Hardware.

But Not Much is clearly Understood about e-Lquids. And that is the Part that Goes into a users Body.

So Once the FDA has dotted all the I's and Crossed all the T's, and it is in the Federal Registry, the FDA will have Legal Powers to do things.

And I think their First Action will be Against e-Liquids.

I agree; I think the fact that nicotine is actually a drug will give them all the say-so they think they need to "do something about it." so yes, I do plan on getting several liters, maybe several gallons! of 100mg nic base, PG I guess, I think it may freeze better, and some 60ml cobalt-glass bottles to freeze it in. I use so little that it should last a nice long time, and maybe some of this drama will already have been challenged and won purely on the grounds of sanity -- we can always hope, I guess. Maybe at the very least I'll be able to buy the Virginia flavor I like in 0nic formulation, since I can't duplicate that flavor myself -- it's a tobacco flavor after all, and they seem to only hate the sweet/fruit flavors, all the "children" nonsense the ANTZ keep hollering. I'm also forcing myself to start getting used to some sweet and fruit flavors, since I understand that those are easier to make yourself.

But I'm also a bit concerned about batteries -- are there any other consumer electronics that use these types and sizes of high-drain batteries? I really don't know, but if there aren't, then they may also attack us that way. Batteries really can be dangerous if you're careless, and that pretty much describes everyone at one time or another -- humans are definitely fallible.

Andria

 

[Alexander Mundy]

The LED flashlight guys and a host of other consumer products got us covered on the batteries.

 

[AndriaD]

This Is Critical: Please Pass it Along NOW

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ll-call-campaign-california.html#post13211582

And don't forget this one -- deadline is the 27th!!

http://blog.casaa.org/2014/05/second-call-to-action-for-fda-proposed.html

 

[Bobbilly]

I agree; I think the fact that nicotine is actually a drug will give them all the say-so they think they need to "do something about it." so yes, I do plan on getting several liters, maybe several gallons! of 100mg nic base, PG I guess, I think it may freeze better, and some 60ml cobalt-glass bottles to freeze it in. I use so little that it should last a nice long time, and maybe some of this drama will already have been challenged and won purely on the grounds of sanity -- we can always hope, I guess. Maybe at the very least I'll be able to buy the Virginia flavor I like in 0nic formulation, since I can't duplicate that flavor myself -- it's a tobacco flavor after all, and they seem to only hate the sweet/fruit flavors, all the "children" nonsense the ANTZ keep hollering. I'm also forcing myself to start getting used to some sweet and fruit flavors, since I understand that those are easier to make yourself.

But I'm also a bit concerned about batteries -- are there any other consumer electronics that use these types and sizes of high-drain batteries? I really don't know, but if there aren't, then they may also attack us that way. Batteries really can be dangerous if you're careless, and that pretty much describes everyone at one time or another -- humans are definitely fallible.

Andria

Hook the atomizer to a car battery. It'll be a bit heavy though. But you buy this too.