Class at Hospital - "Lithium battery in ecigarettes release carcinogenics." Help me respond to this?

[Monkey7]

Hello,

I attended a class at the hospital a few days ago. I'm a nurse and we occasionally have 'continued learning' meetings. Among the many topics covered were ecigs.

Paraphrasing slightly, the instructor (nurse) said:

'Lithium batteries in ecigarettes are known to be carcinogenic. When the lithium batteries become warm/hot, the carcinogenic fumes leak from the device and are inhaled.'

This portion of the meeting was very brief. She didn't mention any other so-called dangers and quickly moved on to another topic.

After the class, I did approach and ask if she had any literature on the topic, which she did not. That was Monday.

On Tuesday, I asked an ER MD on my shift if she knew anything about the lithium battery/ecig carcinogenic connection. She didn't, but suggested I speak with another MD (an oncologist). Yesterday, he was finally on my shift and I inquired. He stated, again paraphrasing slightly: 'If lithium batteries are heated, yes they emit carcinogens.' I followed up with ecigs specifically, to which he responded: 'If you're inhaling in close proximity to a heated lithium battery, you're breathing carcinogens' and off he went.

I went home and tried Googling anything/everything to find information on this supposed link, but came up with very little. Maybe I'm not searching accurately.

Now, let me state right now - No one can say anything that will pry my pv from my cold dead hands. But, I'm very curious now, given what I've been told this week from separate sources.

Can someone please enlighten me?

Note: I did search the forum before posting, using the keywords lithium battery / carcinogenic, and could not find anything. It appeared most of the posts were directed toward the myth of 'exploding batteres' and/or carcinogenics related to other things, but not lithium batteries. I apologize in advance if my question has been asked, and I missed it during my search.

Thanks

Adding another note:

This is supposed to be different than batteries used in cell phones, for example, because the PV has a carrier agent (the vape / smoke itself via pg/vg), unlike a cell phone battery, which does not have a carrier agent.

 

[Robino1]

I've never heard that one!

A new one for me. I can't say as I remember any thread discussing an issue of this sort in the almost year that I've been a member of the forum.

 

[Plum]

But are the batteries in ecigarettes "heated"? Maybe that means if you burnt one....
Surely it's only the coil that's heated, if the battery became hot, I think most of us would pretty soon put it down. I'm not sure they would be heated any more than in any other device such as smartphone.

If anyone knows different, am happy to be corrected.

 

[Zak Rabbit]

As I understand it, our batteries are NOT supposed to get warm in regular use. They will "vent" if they get too hot, but the only reason that should happen is something has gone wrong with the unit/setup (either the coil is WAY under 1ohm, or something has shorted).

 

[bnrkwest]

So does that mean when our cell phone gets hot at our ear we are also breathing in carcinogens since it is so close to our mouth where we speak into it?? I think more data needs to be out there to support this. bnrk

 

[Monkey7]

But are the batteries in ecigarettes "heated"? Maybe that means if you burnt one....
Surely it's only the coil that's heated, if the battery became hot, I think most of us would pretty soon put it down. I'm not sure they would be heated any more than in any other device such as smartphone.

If anyone knows different, am happy to be corrected.

Agree, that's where my thoughts were going as well. I was thinking heated atty - or heated coil - not heated battery.

But, I took it as the battery becoming heated as a result of 'all the internal parts' combined.

As far as smartphones go, that crossed my mind, too. But, I think (hope) that can be scratched off the list because there wouldn't be a carrier agent, i.e. the vape/pg/vg itself.

I should add the point of the meeting was for intake questions for those who reported they were a smoker, during triage.

 

[Moogle]

Simple. Since someone else is making the claim ask them to provide peer reviewed studies backing up their claim. Then prepare for silence....

 

[Monkey7]

As I understand it, our batteries are NOT supposed to get warm in regular use. They will "vent" if they get too hot, but the only reason that should happen is something has gone wrong with the unit/setup (either the coil is WAY under 1ohm, or something has shorted).

So, there's no heating of the battery under normal use?

Sorry to ask so many questions. I have another meeting in about 2 weeks, and I want to go in there with some ammo to combat this.

One reason I'm really bent out of shape is that, this topic is something they're going to share with patients.

 

[skydragon]

I think it is great you are asking so others can be properly informed. Unfortunately I don't have an answer but am wondering if maybe some of the scientific mod/batt gurus could answer in those threads.

 

[Plum]

So, there's no heating of the battery under normal use?

Sorry to ask so many questions. I have another meeting in about 2 weeks, and I want to go in there with some ammo to combat this.

One reason I'm really bent out of shape is that, this topic is something they're going to share with patients.

As a healthcare professional myself, I can tell you that many of these people will believe what they are told with no evidence to back it up, and pass this on as gospel to fit the current agenda.

 

[BlueMoods]

I'd tell her to check the temp of her cell phone when it's charging in her car, or when she is using it while it is charging - gee a lot warmer than my PV and, if I'm getting battery fumes, she's getting a lot more form that cell phone.

Is cancer really common in remote controlled vehicle enthusiasts? Because they use the same type of batteries and, they all get warm in use and when charging.

Do pacemakers give those that have them cancer if the happen to get the flu after getting the pacemaker? Because gee, I know my PV never gets over 100 so a low grad fever would make the battery in the pace maker give off fumes and cause cancer.

And yes, if you actually get a Li-ion battery hot enough to bulge and vent, for that few seconds there probably are some carcinogens coming from the battery but, we don't get them that hot.

 

[jp_cfc09]

But are the batteries in ecigarettes "heated"? Maybe that means if you burnt one....
Surely it's only the coil that's heated, if the battery became hot, I think most of us would pretty soon put it down. I'm not sure they would be heated any more than in any other device such as smartphone.

If anyone knows different, am happy to be corrected.

think your right here, or we wouldnt have smart phones at our face every mintue of the day lol. everything I can find state they have carcinogens compounds inside which are dangerous when they leak and only should be treated with care. only thing about heat is that extrame heat would cause them to leak and the gas released could cause them to explode. but we got to remember these are in phones, laptops, kid toys, cars etc. so I doubt just simple heat would cause any harm at all, its when they fail with extrame heat exposure. you could of asked about your phone battery leaking these carcinogens as my htc wildfire on custom ram that I have clocked can run 40 degrees c. alot hoter then my ecig battery at most times, so then my phones going to kill me lol.

 

[Moogle]

From Wikipedia (might be some good scholarly articles in the references)

Avoiding the lithium cobalt oxide cathode leads to a number of advantages. LiCoO2 is one of the more expensive components of traditional li-ion batteries, giving LFP batteries the potential to ultimately become significantly cheaper to produce. Lithium iron phosphate has no known carcinogenicity whereas lithium cobalt oxide does because it contains cobalt, which is listed as a possible human carcinogen by the IARC. LiCoO2 can lead to problems with runaway overheating and outgassing, particularly in the form of lithium polymer battery packs, making batteries that use it more susceptible to fire than LFP batteries. This advantage means that LFP batteries don't need as intense charge monitoring as traditional li-ion. However, LFP batteries tend to have lower (~60%) energy density in comparison to traditional li-ion.

 

[Asmotron]

This is a curious topic, and it is unfortunate that there is no apparent evidence for you to stand on against it, or for them for it.

Batteries will get warm during use, but not hot. I can't really imagine a battery under normal load putting off any fumes. Plus most devices (correct me if I'm wrong) don't draw air across the battery as an air source. Automatics might, maybe?

 

[Baditude]

So, there's no heating of the battery under normal use?

Sorry to ask so many questions. I have another meeting in about 2 weeks, and I want to go in there with some ammo to combat this.

One reason I'm really bent out of shape is that, this topic is something they're going to share with patients.

Monkey, if you click the link under my avatar (blog entries), it will take you to several articles that I have written to help other vapors. The first article will be called "Advice and Tips for Vapors Looking to Try Their First RBA". Within that article are several resources on batteries and e-cig safety. A couple go into quite some detail on the chemical make-ups of Lithium batteries, in particular Battery University.

A lithium ion battery has a volatile chemistry, which means if stressed beyond safe use or short circuited they can react violently, therefore requiring protective circuits built into them. IMR, also called safe chemistry or high drain batteries (Li Mn) are less volatile, but can vent hot gases when they are short circuited.

It's very possible that should one of these batteries vent gases, that the gas contains carcinogenic materials. However, these batteries do not under normal circumstances emit any gases or carcinogenic substances. As someone pointed out, these are the same chemistry batteries that are used in cell phones and lap top computers.

 

[BigBen2k]

That would make eGo's safer than cig-a-likes, given that air doesn't flow through the battery compartment.

If there's any truth to this...

 

[Notorious2again]

So, there's no heating of the battery under normal use?

Sorry to ask so many questions. I have another meeting in about 2 weeks, and I want to go in there with some ammo to combat this.

One reason I'm really bent out of shape is that, this topic is something they're going to share with patients.

Think about the physics of this. First, the battery would have to be heated to the point where its internal contents could steam or vaporize (convert to a gas). This typically happens at rather high temperatures. Now for a little test. Hit your PV a few times. Does it heat up to the point where it becomes uncomfortable to hold or causes burns to your hand? No. Sometimes they can become warm, but not to the point of vaporizing the internals of your battery. If you use a mod, try this - take 4 - 5 looong drags in quick succession. Pull the battery out. Is it too hot to touch? Is there vapor emitting from it? Of course not.

Li-ion batteries contain carcinogens that, if ingested in any form, can cause illness. But under typical use those chemicals are contained inside the battery and never come in contact with the user in any form, gas or otherwise.

IMHO this is absolute BS. No, you're not inhaling cancer from your battery. If that were the case, all cellphone users would be disease-riddled or dead by now.

 

[Notorious2again]

Think about the physics of this. First, the battery would have to be heated to the point where its internal contents could steam or vaporize (convert to a gas). This typically happens at rather high temperatures. Now for a little test. Hit your PV a few times. Does it heat up to the point where it becomes uncomfortable to hold or causes burns to your hand? No. Sometimes they can become warm, but not to the point of vaporizing the internals of your battery. If you use a mod, try this - take 4 - 5 looong drags in quick succession. Pull the battery out. Is it too hot to touch? Is there vapor emitting from it? Of course not.

Li-ion batteries contain carcinogens that, if ingested in any form, can cause illness. But under typical use those chemicals are contained inside the battery and never come in contact with the user in any form, gas or otherwise.

IMHO this is absolute BS. No, you're not inhaling cancer from your battery. If that were the case, all cellphone users would be disease-riddled or dead by now.

One more note on the common sense of it all - Li-ion batteries have been used in high end flashlights and tactical flashlights for years. Like, dozens of years. Do Surefire lights come with a cancer warning? Of course not. It's nonsense.

 

[Moogle]

My batteries are Li-Mn or lithium manganese oxide (LiMn2O4).

Here's an MSDS that says there are no known studies of inhalation of Li-Mn and I suppose that means the raw chemical and not in a sealed battery:

http://www.mtixtl.com/MSDS/MSDS for LiMn2O4.pdf

I can't find anything to support the carcinogen thing either.

 

[indoorsindica]

So, there's no heating of the battery under normal use?

Sorry to ask so many questions. I have another meeting in about 2 weeks, and I want to go in there with some ammo to combat this.

One reason I'm really bent out of shape is that, this topic is something they're going to share with patients.

As a healthcare professional myself, I can tell you that many of these people will believe what they are told with no evidence to back it up, and pass this on as gospel to fit the current agenda.

Exactly, lots of scientific claims go unchallenged and can usually contain errors in observation, mathematics, or bias.

Great example; spinach was revered as a super food for over a decade because someone missplaced a decimal point. Now we know it contains no more iron etc. than any other vegetables.