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New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

Discussion in 'General Vaping Discussion' started by mikepetro, Mar 6, 2017.

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  1. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Use temp control and dont go above 450Fish if you want to minimize exposure.

    OK, they published this data publicly now about the spike of formaldehyde and Acetaldehyde (both carcinogens) spiking way up past safe levels starting around 470F-480F.

    Temperature Control is IMPORTANT folks!


    Start about 6 minutes in:


    Turns out VG is worse than PG with regards to formaldehyde:

    A Device-Independent Evaluation of Carbonyl Emissions from Heated Electronic Cigarette Solvents


    Even tootle puffers at 10W are reaching temps above 470F

    [​IMG]



    This is PG, carcinogen level starts rising around 480F
    [​IMG]


    This is VG, carcinogens start rising around 410F

    [​IMG]


    This is our common 50/50 pg/vg mix, carcinogens start rising at around 470F

    [​IMG]

    The rise in carcinogens above 470F exceeds what is available in regular cigarettes.

    [​IMG]


    Below 470 the levels are negligible.

    ETA:
    ***********************************************
    This thread stirred a lot of controversy. In an attempt to actually prove, based on "sound" technique, what was going on inside our attys, a series of tests were performed. Here is a list of links you might find interesting:

    Best Practices to avoid high temps on VV/VW mods.
    VV & VW Mod Temperature Variables
    Capillary action of silica vs rayon
    Actual temperatures inside a Vivi Nova on both VV and VW devices.
    Actual temperature inside VW Tootle Puffer rig.
    Juice Boiling Point and Vaping Temperatures
    Real Life temp measurements inside a 2016 era atty
     
  2. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    The old tootle puffers CE4s are not safe at any power level.

    Our own Dr. @Kurt who also attended:

    Start watching about 20 minutes into it:



    [​IMG]
     
    caiyo101, KentA, Angela0111 and 7 others like this.
  3. r77r7r

    r77r7r ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 15, 2011
    Pa,LandOfTaxes
    Is Evolve going to regulate their boards now?
     
  4. Aal_

    Aal_ Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 5, 2012
    Greece
    bummer ...
     
    Herrick, havok333 and tiburonfirst like this.
  5. Bonskibon

    Bonskibon Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 11, 2015
    USA Northeast
    Thank you for posting this information. I tried watching it yesterday and not ashamed to admit that it's pretty much over my head and having difficulty understanding it. I don't use TC mode so not sure if that has me dumbed down to what they are talking about.
     
    nancybout, KentA and PBody19 like this.
  6. Fozzy71

    Fozzy71 Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 7, 2016
    8 Mile + 2.5
    The take away from this is that if you don't use TC mode you should probably consider using it, and keep your temp setting as low as you can while still delivering a vape you enjoy and that keeps you from smoking analogs. Depending on the device/tank/build I have always vaped between 400 and 460.
     
  7. Bonskibon

    Bonskibon Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 11, 2015
    USA Northeast
    I use kanthal wire so how should I use TC mode with that? I use 28g with 8 wraps on 2.5 jig that gives me 1.6 ohms that I vape at 12w.
     
    52anddone likes this.
  8. Konstantinos Kazantzoglou

    Konstantinos Kazantzoglou Full Member

    Mar 20, 2016
    Athens Greece
    So the only solution is to make SS-316 coils since ni-200 and Titanium are not risk free wires...
     
  9. Fozzy71

    Fozzy71 Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 7, 2016
    8 Mile + 2.5
    The only mods I know of that can do TC with Kanthal are the Hohm Tech mods. I have 4 of the G2's but haven't tried Kanthal on them yet. I am currently using SS316 in all 5 of my mods that are in daily rotation.
     
  10. Bonskibon

    Bonskibon Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 11, 2015
    USA Northeast
    Well I guess if that's the case than no one should use mechs than. This is all so confusing. :(
     
    MacTechVpr and pt91 like this.
  11. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Evolv has always regulated their boards. The current generation has a limit of 600F which still is unsafe according to that data. It is up to the User to dial in safe settings.
     
    52anddone, KenD, havok333 and 2 others like this.
  12. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    There is only one vendor that I know of (Hohm Wrecker) who sells Mods that will Temp Control kanthal. Most TC mods you simply cant use kanthal if you want temp control.
     
    Pheric, 52anddone and Heartsdelight like this.
  13. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    BTW, most of this information came out of:

    Committee on the Review of the Health Effects of Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems (ENDS): An Information-Gathering Workshop
    2/21/17 - Welcome : Health and Medicine Division

    Click the PLUS buttons to see the collection of about 20 videos:
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Bonskibon

    Bonskibon Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 11, 2015
    USA Northeast
    I don't want to use TC mode, but I'm getting the feeling that I have to if I want to be safe and stay away from kantal altogether.
     
    DaveP, SlickWilly and mikepetro like this.
  15. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    The best way I heard it put was like this:
     
  16. Bonskibon

    Bonskibon Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 11, 2015
    USA Northeast
    I honesty don't think my kantal coil is getting dangerously hot the way I vape, but want to be sure so will be researching that out.
     
    KentA, MacTechVpr, 52anddone and 3 others like this.
  17. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    To my knowledge, the hazards associated with those wires are also temp related. Bad stuff doesnt start happening until you get well above the temps we are talking about here.
     
    52anddone, KenD, BrentMydland and 5 others like this.
  18. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Mechs, particularly with a fresh battery, are probably one of the riskier devices. You simply dont have any control over what temps you are hitting.
     
    52anddone, pt91, jwbnyc and 6 others like this.
  19. Caihlen

    Caihlen Full Member Verified Member

    Feb 9, 2017
    Essentially what you are presenting is data that says vaping is not safe and produces carcinogens at temperatures above 450 or so that exceed the carcinogens produced by tobacco.
     
  20. Zakillah

    Zakillah Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 24, 2015
    Vienna
    Everybody relax.
    Its not like your setup turns into a Carbonyl-spitting monster even if you don't use TC. As long as there is enough liquid on the wick and enough airflow, it cools down on itself without TC anyway.
    I have not yet seen a serious analysis (one that does not dry burn the hell out of the atty) that detects more then trace amounts of Form/Acetaldehyde and I work in this field.
     

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