New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

Thanks to all who replied to my post. I'll just try to keep chain vaping to a minimum for now

Smart move....

 

[mikepetro]

OK, here is a preview of my testing.

I took two extremes just to validate if the view was worth the climb to go further.

• 50/50 pg/vg at 450f
  
• 100% VG at 500f
• Both were unflavored as I didnt want flavorings to skew the results. Flavorings are a whole different can of worms and really need to be tested in and of themselves.
  
• The samples were drawn at 3-4 second rate, at a velocity and vacuum equal to a MTL hit.

What I found was that VG at 500f (not a dry hit nor burnt tasting) had about 3 times the formaldehyde of 50/50 juice at a moderate 450f.

I also normalized the volume to equal a 55ml puff and compared it to documented tobacco puffs.

• The 50/50 sample at 450f (which is higher than many need) was less than half of the lowest tobacco readings. Lower the temp some and it would be maybe a tenth or less.
  
• The 100% VG at 500f was equal to the very lowest of the cigarette readings. Again, lower the temp, or dilute the VG and these levels will drop.

Now this was done on real vape gear:

• DNA 200, calibrated, and validated, to be +/- 10 degrees in accuracy
  
• Merlin RTA with a 0.51ohm 28g TI coil, and a rayon wick.
• The testing was performed under actual vaping conditions.

So.... on real vape gear, under real conditions, 100% VG did indeed show increased formaldehyde vs 50/50, but not vs a cigarette! The results were not nearly as severe as some of the unrealistic studies floating around.

Now, keep in mind this was done on accurate TC gear, these results wont directly apply to VV or VW gear because these tests were all temperature based. It all still comes down to temperature. The amount of formaldehyde generated is a direct result of thermal degradation, the hotter you cook your VG the more formaldehyde you will get. However, these tests were done at 500f, if you get much hotter than that you will start to taste "burnt" even if not yet in a dry hit situation. IMHO, if you arent tasting "burnt" then you are likely not exceeding the level of a cigarette.

Also keep in mind that this was modern gear. Older VV/VW gear might have more severe results due to juice flow inadequacies and other variables etc. Still, IMHO, if you arent tasting "burnt" then you are likely not exceeding the level of a cigarette.

Also keep in mind that formaldehyde was the only nasty tested here. Ecigs have a few nasties, but not nearly as many as the hundreds of other nasties found in burnt tobacco.

50/50 juice at 450f or less is pretty safe as compared to a cigarette, 100% VG at higher temps approaches the lower levels in a cigarette. I will do more testing to see were the curve starts to increase.

So, yes, I think that the Wang study was onto something. They documented the thermal degradation phenomena, and the temps that it occurs at. However their quantities were skewed vs vaping by not using real vape gear in real conditions. There are physics going on inside an atty that can only be reproduced in an actual atty.

Also, these tests were done using MTL conditions. I have no clue how they would correlate to DL hits. My gut tells me DL would be higher quantities, especially if cloud chasing, simply because you are inhaling higher volumes (more mg) of juice per hit.

 

[mikepetro]

We have pro-vaping and anti-vaping research; we cannot rely on any.
Now we have manufacturer research; I never take one seriously.
Nobody is going to make a research for vapers, to address their concerns.

I guess I am a "nobody"..........

 

[Letitia]

@mikepetro Thank you.

 

[Katya]

I guess I am a "nobody"..........

You're our hero.

 

[stols001]

One fine day in the middle of the night
two dead men got up to fight
back to back they faced each other
drew their swords and shot each other.

How can a nobody post? (One of my dad, the scientist's, favorite sayings.) My dad was the VP of the company that did the first genetic experiment on the bubble kids, and he still considers himself a nobody.... In the sense that no one really knows who he is. Fortune, he achieved, fame is usually fleeting and not that great. WE love you and your work and even if it's not every single person on this board.... You are still a somebody.

(Please, anyone being tortured by genetic testing by their employer, please don't hurt me, everyone SWORE black and blue it would never happen, I was kind of like, "Meh, probably human nature being what it IS that kind of stuff WILL happen, but congrats on the bubble kids now where's my pony?") To be fair, I was a youth, and I really wanted a pony....

Anna

 

[DPLongo22]

I guess I am a "nobody"..........

PLEASE share your secret so I may finally achieve a long-held aspiration? Try as I do, the phone keeps ringing, and the emails and text messages refuse to stop.

Oh, to be a "nobody" (sigh). "To dream, perchance to sleep."
{intentionally "flipped", si}

 

[Katya]

We have pro-vaping and anti-vaping research; we cannot rely on any.
Now we have manufacturer research; I never take one seriously.

I really don't understand your post, Alien. Research is research. [Politics (and MSM) is another matter altogether.] Good researchers will do research--no matter who funds it. They will publish the results and those will be discussed and rebutted when necessary. I've been following e-cig research for years, and the preponderance of scientific evidence is clear--vaping is substantially less harmful than smoking. Period. And no, Prue Talbot's "Internet-based" research does not count and nobody ever took it seriously.

I’ll say it again: E-cigarettes are still far safer than smoking

Nobody is going to make a research for vapers, to address their concerns. Who will fund it? Nobody will, at least till vaping became a respectable (for society) thing.

??? Farsalinos, Goniewicz, Polosa, Russell, just to name a few. Our own Kurt Kistler and Mooch who've been helping us here for years. Royal College of Physicians, Royal College of Practitioners, ASH (yes, even ASH), Public Health England, and The National Centre for Smoking Cessation and Training have all analyzed dozens of scientific publications and reached the same conclusion--vaping is at least 95% safer than smoking.

Then there's CASAA, ECF (thanks, Oliver), Godshall, Mike ... I could go on and on, but what's the point?

End rant.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I guess I am a "nobody"..........

I have to admit I was wrong.
I am a bit too late to this thread, and when I back a few pages I could not find about you setup. Whether you are using cigarette (puffing) machine, what you use to analyze vapor... But even without this info your results are really interesting. Thank you.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I really don't understand your post, Alien. Research is research. [Politics (and MSM) is another matter altogether.] Good researchers will do research--no matter who funds it. They will publish the results and those will be discussed and rebutted when necessary. I've been following e-cig research for years, and the preponderance of scientific evidence is clear--vaping is substantially less harmful than smoking. Period. And no, Prue Talbot's "Internet-based" research does not count and nobody ever took it seriously.

It is clear to you (and to me). It is not clear to a lot of others. Ask FDA or government of Singapore

I’ll say it again: E-cigarettes are still far safer than smoking

Have you read my short post?

...

Then there's CASAA, ECF (thanks, Oliver), Godshall, Mike ... I could go on and on, but what's the point?

Oliver, Mike - yes. Godshall - no.

End rant.

It's up to me. Is'n it?

 

[Katya]

It is clear to you (and to me). It is not clear to a lot of others. Ask FDA or government of Singapore

True. FDA may change its position one of these days--fingers crossed. Not sure about Singapore.

Have you read my short post?

I have now.

Oliver, Mike - yes. Godshall - no.

OK.

It's up to me. Is'n it?

NO, it's MY RANT!

 

[Semiretired]

So.... on real vape gear, under real conditions, ... The results were not nearly as severe as some of the unrealistic studies floating around.

That really is the problem with a good many of the studies being done - the gear, the conditions, etc. just don't mimic how most people vape. Vaping covers such a wide range of styles, but when you do a study and don't fall within the range would place your results in the skeptical category... It makes you wonder - are they wanting skewed results or are they just that misplaced with reality...

 

[sofarsogood]

If all the bad stuff in cigarettes could somehow be removed except for the known levels of formaldehyde how much illness or shortened life span might be attributed to that alone? And if vaping below 420 F creates far less of it then how significant is that expoure?

The Veterans administration could track some older veterans, those who keep smmoking, those who quit smoking entirely and those who switch from smoking to vaping, regardless of the age they do that and see if the quitters and switchers seem to be living longer. There might be a dramatic difference so it shows up before very many years go by. Vets are a good group to study because they are all in the same medical system and there are plenty of smokers.

 

[Alien Traveler]

NO, it's MY RANT!

Oops...

 

[mikepetro]

I have to admit I was wrong.
I am a bit too late to this thread, and when I back a few pages I could not find about you setup. Whether you are using cigarette (puffing) machine, what you use to analyze vapor... But even without this info your results are really interesting. Thank you.

Yes, this is a long thread, and my methods are buried throughout.

If you read my blogs though, you will find detailed methodology there.

Start with:
Why should you believe a word I have to say?

Then read through some of the individual articles I have written:
Mike Petro's Blog Index

 

[440BB]

No fish were harmed in the testing of these vapors

FTFY

 

[awsum140]

So, you're using a Merlin for testing. I'll throw some more worms in the can, wonder if a dual coil would have different results? (ain't I a little stinker?)

 

[mikepetro]

So, you're using a Merlin for testing. I'll throw some more worms in the can, wonder if a dual coil would have different results? (ain't I a little stinker?)

Ahhhhh, but I have my stinkbug spray handy.

I actually developed this test procedure over the course of about a month. Took me a while to nail down something that was repeatable, and that I was willing to hang my name on.

If using the same 5/6 wrap coil, the results from dual, and even quad coils are the same, assuming the coils are identical and balanced. If the dual coils are balanced they will be the same temp.

A dual coil consumed more juice, and produced more aerosol at a given temp. More aerosol showed a higher PPM of formaldehyde in the test chamber, BUT..... when you do the math, and weigh the juice consumed, the mg/g of formaldehyde per gram of juice remained the same. You measured more formaldehyde because you consumed more juice but the mg/g ratio didnt change.

The one thing that does change things is coil construction. I used 3mm 5/6 wrap spaced coils for all my tests. However, when I used a contact coil (or also with a clapton coil) the formaldehyde levels were significantly higher at a given temp. Contact coils in TC are difficult to make work, and not the norm, although they are possible with SS if done right.

I have seen that coil construction will affect formaldehyde levels at a given temp. The more spaced the coil, the lower the level, the tighter the coil (ie more wraps spaced closer) the higher the level. Diameter of the coil made little difference, wire gauge made little difference, but spacing made a measurable difference. Consider any Clapton coil to be tightly spaced in this context. I got high levels using a 5/6 wrap 3mm dual fused TI clapton.

My theory is that in a contact and/or clapton coil more juice is exposed to the coil temp, therefore more thermal degradation occurs. Where in a spaced coil not all of the juice sees the maximum temp of the coil, a considerable amount of juice vaporizes off of the wick at a lower temp than the coil.

Anyway, to keep apples to apples I am using a 3mm 5/6 wrap TI coil in all of my tests.

With your coil - YMMV.

 

[440BB]

I look forward to seeing the results at a lower temperature should you elect to go further in the future. Maybe we'll find out more about that bend in the hockey stick. For now I'm staying below approximately 400F, which fortunately gives me a satisfying vape.

Thanks for giving us more useful real world information Mike!

 

[mikepetro]

I look forward to seeing the results at a lower temperature should you elect to go further in the future. Maybe we'll find out more about that bend in the hockey stick. For now I'm staying below approximately 400F, which fortunately gives me a satisfying vape.

Thanks for giving us more useful real world information Mike!

Off the cuff, on the 100%VG, a few trial samples at 420 measured virtually nothing, at 440f the levels were extremely low like 0.017 mg/g. But, these were just a single sample, I did not do the 5 sample regiment yet.