New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[stols001]

Well, that's nice to hear as I keep my temps really low (and it's actually similar temp wise as far as I can TELL) to how I run my MTL tanks-- very low wattage, the lowest I can use. Thanks, Mike P.

Anna

 

[Alien Traveler]

Yes, this is a long thread, and my methods are buried throughout.

If you read my blogs though, you will find detailed methodology there.

Start with:
Why should you believe a word I have to say?

Then read through some of the individual articles I have written:
Mike Petro's Blog Index

I love your setup (despite some professional jealousy)

 

[stols001]

My takeaway from all this testing though, is there isn't enough formaldehyde being generated to kill the fish, LOL. (No, really, I know it doesn't work that way.... ) but had you killed off a fish, Mike P., I would be happy to take care of any burial honors, I have the practice and a whole script (including music) at the ready, .

Anna

 

[mikepetro]

My takeaway from all this testing though, is there isn't enough formaldehyde being generated to kill the fish, LOL. (No, really, I know it doesn't work that way.... ) but had you killed off a fish, Mike P., I would be happy to take care of any burial honors, I have the practice and a whole script (including music) at the ready, .

Anna

No deaths during testing, in fact some of them spawned......

 

[mikepetro]

Dr @Kurt should be happy. I have got it down well enough now that I am using a 55ml aerosol sample, which is equal to a Scientifically standardized puff. In the beginning I was having to extrapolate because I hadnt gotten the technique quite right yet.

 

[englishmick]

My takeaway from all this testing though, is there isn't enough formaldehyde being generated to kill the fish, LOL. (No, really, I know it doesn't work that way.... ) but had you killed off a fish, Mike P., I would be happy to take care of any burial honors, I have the practice and a whole script (including music) at the ready, .

Anna

Off topic but there aren't many openings to tell a good fish burial story.

My wife once worked in a group home. One of the residents had a goldfish. There was a new staff member in town, young and not too bright. She decided to wash the green slime off the inside of the tank with Scrubbing Bubbles. Bad news for the poor fish.

The resident was heading into a major meltdown and my wife got her calmed down by saying she would call me and I would come over and give it a decent burial. So at 2.00 in the morning I dug a hole in the yard and lit some candles and everyone stood around and said goodbye.

 

[mikepetro]

I love your setup (despite some professional jealousy)

Actually, that was an old photo. I found that I needed to enclose the entire green probe because there is a temp and humidity sensor in it that is needed for the HCH0 calculation.

This is my final Test Setup:

• I am using a 500ml chamber to store the probe and inject the sample into. Also know as "tidal volume"
• I weigh the mod, and tare (zero) the scale.
  
• I then us a 60ml syringe to draw a 55ml sample (a standard puff) directly off the mod while firing, targeting a 3-4 second stroke. The drip tip was drilled out to snugly fit the syringe tip.
• I inject the 55ml into the 500ml chamber and allow the reading on the HCH0 meter to stabilize, this can take 10-20 minutes.
• I then weigh the mod again and the mg of juice consumed shows as a negative number.
• The math in my SS then calculates everything. My math was validated by a respected PHD.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Actually, that was an old photo. I found that I needed to enclose the entire green probe because there is a temp and humidity sensor in it that is needed for the HCH0 calculation.

This is my final Test Setup:

• I am using a 500ml chamber to store the probe and inject the sample into. Also know as "tidal volume"
• I weigh the mod, and tare (zero) the scale.
  
• I then us a 60ml syringe to draw a 55ml sample (a standard puff) directly off the mod while firing, targeting a 3-4 second stroke. The drip tip was drilled out to snugly fit the syringe tip.
• I inject the 55ml into the 500ml chamber and allow the reading on the HCH0 meter to stabilize, this can take 10-20 minutes.
• I then weigh the mod again and the mg of juice consumed shows as a negative number.
• The math in my SS then calculates everything. My math was validated by a respected PHD.

I like your setups because utilizing rather simple accessible means you are getting meaningful results. Reminds me stories about R. Wood. He built the best for his time spectrograph on a base of a sewer pipe (just in case somebody wondering - not used one). For it's cleaning he employed his cat.

 

[mikepetro]

Who was it that wanted to see the "Hockey Stick"? It is a lot better than I feared. Starts at 460f and really shoots up at 480f.

Documented combustible tobacco:

The recordings:

The Math:

 

[mikepetro]

I like your setups because utilizing rather simple accessible means you are getting meaningful results. Reminds me stories about R. Wood. He built the best for his time spectrograph on a base of a sewer pipe (just in case somebody wondering - not used one). For it's cleaning he employed his cat.

Yes, I dont have a University budget to work with, so the precision isnt going to equal a High Performance Liquid Chromatography ($35k used). However, I am getting repeatable results, which tells me I am doing as good as my equipment will allow.

 

[Eskie]

Yes, I dont have a University budget to work with, so the precision isnt going to equal a High Performance Liquid Chromatography ($35k used). However, I am getting repeatable results, which tells me I am doing as good as my equipment will allow.

But if you had an HPLC (and combo espresso maker) you could be looking at all the other cool stuff like Acrolein.

Interesting how consistent with what Wang saw with the reactor (as far as takeoff point, if not necessarily in precise concentration, I just don't remember those numbers right now). It does appear that ~450F is about where things start to tank. The difference with just 50F higher is pretty dramatic. How this will turn out for the mtl "low wattage" setups will be interesting given the slight wattage differences required to get temps higher than typical for higher airflow coils. IIRC, from your mtl Nauti testing a 1 or 2W increase got up to 500F pretty fast. And as you noted, it didn't mean tasting burnt/bad/however else you'd describe a toasty coil.

Off topic but there aren't many openings to tell a good fish burial story.

My wife once worked in a group home. One of the residents had a goldfish. There was a new staff member in town, young and not too bright. She decided to wash the green slime off the inside of the tank with Scrubbing Bubbles. Bad news for the poor fish.

The resident was heading into a major meltdown and my wife got her calmed down by saying she would call me and I would come over and give it a decent burial. So at 2.00 in the morning I dug a hole in the yard and lit some candles and everyone stood around and said goodbye.

And to think, all my fish funerals involved white porcelain rather than formal burial (with candles).

 

[mikepetro]

Even with a HPLC, all the filters, and reagents, and whatnot needed to run it cost a small fortune.

 

[stols001]

Try doing that with a 6 year old sobbing at your feet. I am SO WELL VERSED in tasteful, solemn fish funerals and thank god we graduated to other pets. They're more durable, thank the powers above that Dog #1 lasted until my kiddo was 18 and had his own rescue dog....

I would have done a lot to have a porcelain bowl do all that work.

I wonder if this qualifies me to work at a Mortuary or something, something I've always considered must be very interesting, hmmmmm. I'm kinda into the idea and I'm sure I have the skillset.

Anna

 

[440BB]

No deaths during testing, in fact some of them spawned......

Great, now vaping will be blamed for overpopulation. An unintended consequence of an innocent search for answers.

Thank god my wife achieved menopause.

 

[mikepetro]

BTW, initial test data is backing up my proposal of adding 10% Distilled Water.

 

[stols001]

I'm sure your wife isn't thanking god she "achieved" menopause, 440BB! I hear it really sucks, I'm thankful that menopause in our family runs late... really late.... like 60ish. I have every plan to be dead before then, but like I haven't said that often before.

Maybe the solution is to chain vape my MTL Max VG to achieve it, but from watching women go through menopause, I *think* I can totally do without all those symptoms, I can't even imagine what hot flashes must be like summers in Tucson.

Hey I wonder if I can get hormonal treatment now that I'm not a smoker? I went through this long period of NOT getting my monthly ah, friend, and visited the ObGyn and he was all like, "I can't give you any hormones, not at your age and with your smoking habits, it's actually illegal and would probably kill you."

If I'm thanking anyone for anything non-pregnancy related, I am thanking the heavens above for the paraguard IUD. That is The Best Birth Control Method of all time, I think it's actually better than having your tubes tied, actually....

Mike, I am TOTALLY gonna add more water to my mixes, and maybe a drop or two of actual alcohol, but I kinda feel like that might be unwise. It might taste too authentic, so H20 it is. Maybe I'll get some swimmy fish . Plastic ones.

Anna

 

[AzPlumber]

My theory is that in a contact and/or clapton coil more juice is exposed to the coil temp, therefore more thermal degradation occurs. Where in a spaced coil not all of the juice sees the maximum temp of the coil, a considerable amount of juice vaporizes off of the wick at a lower temp than the coil.

Another thing to consider is the radiant heat between coils increases as the gap decreases.

 

[440BB]

BTW, initial test data is backing up my proposal of adding 10% Distilled Water.

I'm inferring that for the die hard voltage and wattage MTL crowd, best practices now include spaced coil wraps, 10% H2O or a 50% PG blend. This is in addition to avoiding chain vaping and keeping the draws relatively short.

I suppose the same would apply to direct lung vapers but with the larger volume of vapor being breathed in TC would seem even more important.

 

[HansWu]

Hi,
mikepetro could you maybe add a summary of your findings in this 250 page topic in your initial post by editing it?
So adding 10% water to your liquid is good?
TC only way to go? Im vaping a flash e vapor at 20 watts, so Im at risk for bad stuff?
Your graphs in #4929 show that only "bad stuff" happens if you use pure VG? Any PG VG destilled mixture and nothing happend?
Using less VG = better?

 

[stols001]

A lot of this stuff you can find condensed on Mike P's blog, without interference by ahem, posters who offer fish funerals. It's kinda easier to digest that way.

Mike's recommendation is for those using Max VG (I am sensitive to PG) add water to decrease the rate of thermal degredation, and it's not a bad suggestion at all. You can also add more PG to your mix if you are able to do that.

TC mode seems safer yes, as far as e-liquid being heated up, though there are things you can do if you don't want to use TC and make it safer-- like avoiding chain vaping, using lower wattage (if you can and this is my suggestion, I think, use larger tanks so there is more e-liquid to offset coil temperature and also don't let your tanks run super low, and whatnot.)

There's a ton of testing you can look at on the blog that may make things more clear....

Anna