New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Alien Traveler]

BTW, initial test data is backing up my proposal of adding 10% Distilled Water.

Exactly. 10% DW, 50% PG, or 8% Turkey 101. Will decrease boiling point dramatically.

 

[mikepetro]

Hi,
mikepetro could you maybe add a summary of your findings in this 250 page topic in your initial post by editing it?
So adding 10% water to your liquid is good?
TC only way to go? Im vaping a flash e vapor at 20 watts, so Im at risk for bad stuff?
Your graphs in #4929 show that only "bad stuff" happens if you use pure VG? Any PG VG destilled mixture and nothing happend?
Using less VG = better?

I am still testing, 100% VG was the only completed at that time, I was just giving folks a preview.

My summaries, as I complete testing, are put in my blog as the flow of a organic forum doesnt allow it, I would be repeating myself every 10 pages. Please read my blog articles for bottom line results.

Start here:
Why should you believe a word I have to say?

Then pick from the articles here.
Mike Petro's Blog Index

 

[mikepetro]

alien Traveler" data-source="post: 20153767" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Exactly. 10% DW, 50% PG, or 8% Turkey 101. Will decrease boiling point dramatically.

Juice Boiling Point and Vaping Temperatures (includes BP Charts)

 

[Katya]

So.... on real vape gear, under real conditions, 100% VG did indeed show increased formaldehyde vs 50/50, but not vs a cigarette! The results were not nearly as severe as some of the unrealistic studies floating around.

OK, so far so good. I can't tolerate high VG juices anyway.

A dual coil consumed more juice, and produced more aerosol at a given temp. More aerosol showed a higher PPM of formaldehyde in the test chamber, BUT..... when you do the math, and weigh the juice consumed, the mg/g of formaldehyde per gram of juice remained the same. You measured more formaldehyde because you consumed more juice but the mg/g ratio didnt change.

Interesting. I thought that with the higher resistance (and subsequent lower wattage applied) of each individual coil in a dual-coil atty the levels of formaldehyde would be lower compared to single coils setups. Hmm... Still good news, I prefer single coils, anyway.

I have seen that coil construction will affect formaldehyde levels at a given temp. The more spaced the coil, the lower the level, the tighter the coil (ie more wraps spaced closer) the higher the level.

Bad news (for me). Yikes. I love my touching coils. And I'm so good at making them. I assume that this is true for all touching coils, regardless of the wire used (I'm still using Kanthal mostly, just experimenting with ss)?

 

[stols001]

I find spaced coils easier to wrap than contact ones. For some reason, I can wrap a spaced coil perfectly around a coil jig and just by hand, but for contact coils, I usually do a spaced coil, and then crunch it together. Using the other half of the jig tends to involve overlap for me, even when I'm trying really hard Not To. I have no clue why this is, but I can hand wrap a meaaaannnn spaced coil that looks nearly perfect. Good news for me, I guess.... Although it's sometimes hard to do with a tiny build deck, for sure.

Anna

 

[Katya]

BTW, initial test data is backing up my proposal of adding 10% Distilled Water.

To every mix? Even 100% or high PG eliquids? I use a bit of DW to thin down my VG, but it doesn't amount to 10%.

 

[mikepetro]

Interesting. I thought that with the higher resistance (and subsequent lower wattage applied) of each individual coil in a dual-coil atty the levels of formaldehyde would be lower compared to single coils setups. Hmm... Still good news, I prefer single coils, anyway.

Dual coils (in parallel) actually splits the resistance in half. Two 1 ohm coils would be seen by the Mod as a 0.5 ohm coil.

I was speaking from TC POV though, and TC will maintain the same temp on both coils if they are the same.

 

[Katya]

I find spaced coils easier to wrap than contact ones. For some reason, I can wrap a spaced coil perfectly around a coil jig and just by hand, but for contact coils, I usually do a spaced coil, and then crunch it together.

I do the exact opposite--I'm a master tight coil builder, can't do an evenly spaced coil if my life depended on it. So I make a touching coil on my Kuro jig and then stretch it out.

 

[mikepetro]

Bad news (for me). Yikes. I love my touching coils. And I'm so good at making them. I assume that this is true for all touching coils, regardless of the wire used (I'm still using Kanthal mostly, just experimenting with ss)?

The more surface area covered by wire, the more juice that will see the coil temperature. Spaced coils cover less surface area, so you get more juice vaporizing off the wick, at lower temps than the coil.

 

[stols001]

I think it's only for high VG liquids, and I think the recommendation to use 10% water is for us folks who can't use PG. Which is something I plan to start doing from now on, even though I JUST mixed 15 mixes, but hey, I want to be healthy. I'll probably do the 10% in my tank for now, and hey, I did say I was gonna lower my nic.... But a high PG ratio results in far less alarming results, if I am to understand them correctly. The boiling point is higher than VG.

Anna

 

[mikepetro]

To every mix? Even 100% or high PG eliquids? I use a bit of DW to thin down my VG, but it doesn't amount to 10%.

I only tested 90/10 VG/DW, but in theory DW would reduce the boiling point of any mix. DW has a BP of 212, where PG and VG are both way higher than that. So yes, just based on those physics, DW would reduce the BP of any mix.

 

[Katya]

Dual coils (in parallel) actually splits the resistance in half. Two 1 ohm coils would be seen by the Mod as a 0.5 ohm coil.

That's what I meant. So to continue your .5Ω coil analogy, if you apply 10 watts to your single .5Ω coil atty, your single coil gets hit with 10 watts. If you apply the same 10 watts to a dual .5Ω coil, each (1Ω) coil gets only 5 watts. That's what I meant by lower wattage (higher resistance) of each individual coil. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

 

[mikepetro]

The thing you have to watch for with adding DW is getting the juice too thin in viscosity. If it is too thin then you might run into leakage problems. For example, I wouldnt add DW to 100% PG.

 

[stols001]

All I know is, I'm also buying some Vodka at the grocery store this week. Don't be alarmed folks, I have plenty of liquor in the house for cooking, I'm just thinking that 10% DW seems awful high, and I might like to add a bit of Vodka and see what transpires in my vape, though I might hate it. But, vodka is useful for other things, like using up old potatoes and also scrubbing paint. So if it's horrid, I can just go scrub a little paint, etc. I've been told that my new love of bleach is harmful, and I do notice I cough more when I use it in high quantities....

Anna

 

[mikepetro]

That's what I meant. So to continue your 1Ω coil analogy, if you apply 10 watts to your single coil atty, your single coil gets hit with 10 watts. If you apply the same 10 watts to a dual 1Ω coil, each coil only gets only 5 watts. That's what I meant by lower wattage (higher resistance) of each individual coil. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

All the ohms law stuff is kind of besides the point I was making though. The point was that dual coils will yield more aerosol at a given temp. If the aerosol contains formaldehyde then you are getting more of that too.

 

[mikepetro]

All I know is, I'm also buying some Vodka at the grocery store this week. Don't be alarmed folks, I have plenty of liquor in the house for cooking, I'm just thinking that 10% DW seems awful high, and I might like to add a bit of Vodka and see what transpires in my vape, though I might hate it. But, vodka is useful for other things, like using up old potatoes and also scrubbing paint. So if it's horrid, I can just go scrub a little paint, etc. I've been told that my new love of bleach is harmful, and I do notice I cough more when I use it in high quantities....

Anna

Common additive. A lot of people just dont like alcohol in their juice.

I do keep a bottle of Everclear around for cleaning vape gear though.

 

[mikepetro]

Bad news (for me). Yikes. I love my touching coils. And I'm so good at making them. I assume that this is true for all touching coils, regardless of the wire used (I'm still using Kanthal mostly, just experimenting with ss)?

Its only bad news if you are running temps higher than 460f with pure VG.

 

[mikepetro]

Hi,
mikepetro could you maybe add a summary of your findings in this 250 page topic in your initial post by editing it?
So adding 10% water to your liquid is good?
TC only way to go? Im vaping a flash e vapor at 20 watts, so Im at risk for bad stuff?
Your graphs in #4929 show that only "bad stuff" happens if you use pure VG? Any PG VG destilled mixture and nothing happend?
Using less VG = better?

You cant edit post past (I think) a day or two.

Be patient, I have the 90\10 mix test, I am testing 50/50 next.
Less VG is better if you run above 460f.

 

[Katya]

All the ohms law stuff is kind of besides the point I was making though. The point was that dual coils will yield more aerosol at a given temp. If the aerosol contains formaldehyde then you are getting more of that too.

I agree. What I was desperately trying to convey here is that I (at least) use less power (wattage) PER COIL when I use dual coil attys. So I thought there is some advantage to using dual-coil setups. But apparently the increased output of vapor negates any benefits of vaping at cooler temps.

Over an out.

 

[Katya]

Its only bad news if you are running temps higher than 460f with pure VG.

Whew! I don't!

Couldn't vape 100% VG if they paid me. I need at least 60-70% PG in my blends.