No one talks organic?

[shakeytails]

I tobacco can be grown organically. I've done it. I've bedded the seeds in fermented chicken droppings.

Ehh, probably wasn't truly organic. Are you absolutely sure the chicken poo came from chickens who were fed organic feed (probably no such thing IMO) and never been fed any chemicals such as typical wormers?

I smoked cigarettes for 25 years. While I will attempt to avoid the known hazards, such as diacetyl and it's precursors, I'm really not gonna worry too much about a few artificial flavor molecules here and there.

 

[Kurt]

Ehh, probably wasn't truly organic. Are you absolutely sure the chicken poo came from chickens who were fed organic feed (probably no such thing IMO) and never been fed any chemicals such as typical wormers?

I smoked cigarettes for 25 years. While I will attempt to avoid the known hazards, such as diacetyl and it's precursors, I'm really not gonna worry too much about a few artificial flavor molecules here and there.

As you shouldn't, in general.

A purely organic flavoring will often be a whole food extract. Great for oral ingestion in food and drink, but completely unknown in terms of inhalation. Lots of plant molecules, like proteins, polysaccharides, particulates, etc. Not recommended, no matter what your take is on organic food.

Natural flavor means it is the same compound found in the food. Isoamyl acetate IS natural banana flavoring, even if it is synthesized. Propyl acetate is natural pear flavor. There is a ton of natural flavor compounds, and most are synthesized. Extraction, separation, and purification is way more expensive, and the FDA allows this term to be used for these compounds. In a cocktail flavoring, like strawberry, there may be many artificial flavors added to make the flavoring more realistic. these may also be natural flavors added.

I have seen companies claim organic flavors because they use natural flavors and organically produced carrier liquids, like VG or ethanol. I don't have a problem with this because I understand the definitions. I have also seen flavorings labeled as "natural" with these very same criteria.

Here is the thing. We don't know a lot about long term inhalation of flavor compounds, but we know a lot more about individual compounds used in the flavor industry than we know about inhaling large biomolecules. And I cannot imagine anything good coming out of inhaling proteins, polysaccharides, bio-polymers, etc.

For vaping, give me an artificial flavor made by a conscientious flavor chemist, who is on top of inhalation studies, over an unknown soup of masticated and concentrated food stuff any day. TPA and FlavorArt are two companies that are really trying to keep us safe, rather than play into our new-age preconceptions. The flavor industry is a VERY different thing than the produce industry.

 

[Myk]

TPA and FlavorArt are two companies that are really trying to keep us safe, rather than play into our new-age preconceptions.

I just wish they would respect those with PG issues and have a VG line.

 

[Kurt]

I agree, but solubility in VG can be a big problem. The other solvent used in non-PG flavors is ethanol, but I am not a fan of inhaling ethanol in any amount.

Lorann Naturals is a line that uses non-PG carriers. The creamy caramel is quite nice.

I have not used any super concentrates yet, but if I can lower the PG content to 3% or less, I would be very happy about this.

 

[Racehorse]

All in all, I would just hope to open one eye in the DIY department.

All substances, including ones Mother Nature makes herself, are "chemicals" to our bodies, when injested or inhaled. Think about.

I personally AVOID most organic flavorings, as there are naturally-occuring diacetyls (and such) in them, which I prefer not to vape, and so I prefer laboratory flavors where "bad stuff" can be removed before I buy it.

Organic doesn't mean better. I eat mostly organic foods for 20 years, but ONLY if no pesticides or herbicides are used, because I can tell you from my research that some of the "organic" pesticides and herbicides are just as deadly as the synthetic ones, and you can ask any chemist.

As a matter of fact, just putting a small diluted drop of VG Nic on a spider in the sink killed him way faster than bug spray would have. Death was instantaneous.

BTW, a neighbor of mine, who has beeen collecting and eating mushrooms in his salads for 40+ years, and is pretty much an authority on mushroom species, finally died eating one. As it turns out, a poisonous one was growing "inside" the one he ate....he made peace with this fact while in the hospital the last few days of his life, as his organs were shutting down.

For vaping, give me an artificial flavor made by a conscientious flavor chemist, who is on top of inhalation studies, over an unknown soup of masticated and concentrated food stuff any day. TPA and FlavorArt are two companies that are really trying to keep us safe, rather than play into our new-age preconceptions. The flavor industry is a VERY different thing than the produce industry.

agree.

 

[skoot]

I can tell you from my research that some of the "organic" pesticides and herbicides are just as deadly as the synthetic ones, and you can ask any chemist.

@Racehorse Can you cite a source for this or provide your research? I've worked in the organic food industry for a decade and have never heard anything like this.

 

[buffaloguy]

Kurt the super concentrates are awesome for that purpose. Jump in, and you will be glad you did. There are some awesome vapes there esp in the tobacco lines. Fruits are dicier but worth trying as well. VZ has become a regular supplier for me and the pricing is great for the amount of juice you can get out of those concentrates.

I agree, but solubility in VG can be a big problem. The other solvent used in non-PG flavors is ethanol, but I am not a fan of inhaling ethanol in any amount.

Lorann Naturals is a line that uses non-PG carriers. The creamy caramel is quite nice.

I have not used any super concentrates yet, but if I can lower the PG content to 3% or less, I would be very happy about this.

 

[buffaloguy]

Google is your friend : dangerous organic pesticides - Google Search

I dont even work with or even bother to track organic issues and I know most of this stuff. Me thinks a little homework for you is in order. There is also little known about organic farming methods in general. Including organic pesticides or how enviornmental factors alone play a role.

As I said. Nothing is organic. Rain water will ruin that idea period. There is no soil on our earth that is not tainted by centuries of pollution and mismanagement.

@Racehorse Can you cite a source for this or provide your research? I've worked in the organic food industry for a decade and have never heard anything like this.

 

[Aheadatime]

Nothing is organic. Rain water will ruin that idea period. There is no soil on our earth that is not tainted by centuries of pollution and mismanagement.

I agree with you philosophically, but on a practical basis, your thoughts seem rather defeatist by nature. For example, when the food is available (seasonally), I buy from local farms in my state where you can actually visit the farm, observe their practices, meet the animals, check out the beehives (risky business) etc. Some of the plants are managed without pesticides while others need them. None of the seeds/pesticides are GMO, the cattle are grass fed and aren't fed growth hormones/steroids/etc., the chicks are cage free, and the bees are 'free range', without an implanted queen, and the honey is sold solid-state with pollen and without heating.

From my experiences, the egg shells are thicker and the eggs have a sort of 'stench' to them that the paper-thin mass produced ones don't have. The plants rot faster in my fridge and don't have signs of stress (ex - a very notable 'curling' in kale leaves). The yields are generally smaller by default. There are the occasional 'bug bites' present, which would have been thrown away/wasted food in the larger industry. I never get a 'neon' or whitish colored tomato. And I actually get to meet the individual/family that I am paying, which makes a big difference in my purchasing choices.

With all of that seemingly irrelevant stuff said, lets revisit the fact that nothing is truly organic now a days, which I can agree with. This doesn't mean that we should just eat whatever the heck comes our way, seek out the cheapest foods in the store with the highest caloric content, neglect the ingredient list, stop ourselves from researching GMO's and other modern day industrial practices (homogenization, steroid/growth hormone/antibiotic usage) and the side effects therein, and simultaneously shun those who do.

Understanding that yes, we have a pretty messed up and polluted world is one thing, but applying that in a sort of negative self-defeating fashion via dietary choices seems like an awful idea imho. Sort of reminds me of the fat, stressed out Joe America who smokes a couple cigs after downing his morning starbucks/mcdonalds combo and justifies his actions to his nagging conscience by thinking "were all gonna die one day anyway". It just doesn't do any good and is most likely the second most harmful state of mind under ignorance itself.

This isn't to say that we should be on the polar end either, meticulously going over our daily dietary schedule via Excel while flexing in the mirror after an outdoors 'all natural organic' workout session, all the while forgetting to actually enjoy our limited time here on this planet. From personal experience, the happy medium where you know you are making good health choices and feel better at any given moment because of it results in a more stable mood, a clearer train of thought, and a more durable body in general.

 

[FACE MEAT]

while flexing in the mirror after an outdoors 'all natural organic' workout session

Haha. The OP's avatar makes it difficult for me to take anything he types seriously. The last thing I want to see in the morning when I visit ECF is his pubes, or lack thereof.

 

[Aheadatime]

Haha. The OP's avatar makes it difficult for me to take anything he types seriously. The last thing I want to see in the morning when I visit ECF is his pubes, or lack thereof.

I didn't mean for that to go in his direction. But lol @ the pubes part. Morning joe, morning vape, and morning..

...pubes?

 

[buffaloguy]

While I do agree with just about everything you said... I was taking an extreme position to prove a point. Dont fret. Im a great home chef, use fresh ingredients, and do shop at farmers markets in season as much as once a week.

However, the fact remains that even if you were to work on a farm you onky have so much control over what either mother nature wants to do, or what we as humans have done to the land before we claim it to be organically farmed. The definition of organic seems somehow to carry the banner of "pure" or "better for health" and the fact is no one really knows but they are willing to pay substancially more for some erroneous peace of mind. The fact is the land is tainted. All of it. Even the most natural products grown still likely contain trace amounts of DDT and neuclear radiation.

We must not forget these facts when talkling organic. Organic does not mean pollution free or even enviornmentally safe. Would you eat organically grown rice from fukoshima? No, of course not. Again, an extreme but you get my point.

Hence why a good point was made and overlooked. The chemically produced flavorings are likely more well controlled, more well studied, and potentially more pure than what can be made organically. Tighter controls and contaminants can be abated.... at least known ones anyways. Can we be sure? No. Not unless you are a chemist making your own at home.

Im all for more natural products but organic to me is simply a myth. Orgainc is not a solution to GMO and bioengineered produce. The solution to that is to simply have a more informed and educated public pressing industry to do the right thing and checks in the manufacturing process to ensure they arent used. Organic is a laughable solution to those issues by default because it may be no better than anything else. If it makes ya sleep better at night tho then by all means, buy the organic label.

I agree with you philosophically, but on a practical basis, your thoughts seem rather defeatist by nature. For example, when the food is available (seasonally), I buy from local farms in my state where you can actually visit the farm, observe their practices, meet the animals, check out the beehives (risky business) etc. Some of the plants are managed without pesticides while others need them. None of the seeds/pesticides are GMO, the cattle are grass fed and aren't fed growth hormones/steroids/etc., the chicks are cage free, and the bees are 'free range', without an implanted queen, and the honey is sold solid-state with pollen and without heating.

From my experiences, the egg shells are thicker and the eggs have a sort of 'stench' to them that the paper-thin mass produced ones don't have. The plants rot faster in my fridge and don't have signs of stress (ex - a very notable 'curling' in kale leaves). The yields are generally smaller by default. There are the occasional 'bug bites' present, which would have been thrown away/wasted food in the larger industry. I never get a 'neon' or whitish colored tomato. And I actually get to meet the individual/family that I am paying, which makes a big difference in my purchasing choices.

With all of that seemingly irrelevant stuff said, lets revisit the fact that nothing is truly organic now a days, which I can agree with. This doesn't mean that we should just eat whatever the heck comes our way, seek out the cheapest foods in the store with the highest caloric content, neglect the ingredient list, stop ourselves from researching GMO's and other modern day industrial practices (homogenization, steroid/growth hormone/antibiotic usage) and the side effects therein, and simultaneously shun those who do.

Understanding that yes, we have a pretty messed up and polluted world is one thing, but applying that in a sort of negative self-defeating fashion via dietary choices seems like an awful idea imho. Sort of reminds me of the fat, stressed out Joe America who smokes a couple cigs after downing his morning starbucks/mcdonalds combo and justifies his actions to his nagging conscience by thinking "were all gonna die one day anyway". It just doesn't do any good and is most likely the second most harmful state of mind under ignorance itself.

This isn't to say that we should be on the polar end either, meticulously going over our daily dietary schedule via Excel while flexing in the mirror after an outdoors 'all natural organic' workout session, all the while forgetting to actually enjoy our limited time here on this planet. From personal experience, the happy medium where you know you are making good health choices and feel better at any given moment because of it results in a more stable mood, a clearer train of thought, and a more durable body in general.

 

[CookingWithGuns]

Just remember, organic is not always good. Look at spinach and avocados for prime examples to the problems of organic produce

 

[bazmonkey]

Haha. The OP's avatar makes it difficult for me to take anything he types seriously. The last thing I want to see in the morning when I visit ECF is his pubes, or lack thereof.

I'm so happy I wasn't the first to mention this! I suppose if I had a body like that I'd be high and mighty about whatever I thought got me there, too.

I'd like to point out that the advent of most of the agricultural "evils" that organic foodies despise (like pesticides) also brought about a global increase in food production of some 33%. Even now, going on a century later, organic agriculture is about 25% less efficient than modern farming. Feeding the world's hungry mouths is more important than some GMO blah blah. It might feel good in between ab workouts, but it's not sustainable for most of the world.

Putting all that aside, Hoosier has it right here: this is a situation where a discrete list of chemical ingredients is preferable to an organic "let nature decide" approach. I don't want most of the chemicals that compose strawberry in my juice. Quite the opposite, I DO want only those specific ones that produce "strawberry" flavor.

 

[Aheadatime]

The definition of organic seems somehow to carry the banner of "pure" or "better for health" and the fact is no one really knows but they are willing to pay substancially more for some erroneous peace of mind.

Orgainc is not a solution to GMO and bioengineered produce.

I agree with everything you said outside of these two tidbits. Organic food (subjectively defined as GMO-free and additive-free, not going by the legal definition which is intentionally vague for marketability purposes) is indeed better for your health than GMO foods or other highly processed foods. As I stated earlier, GMOs cause auto immune response, cause tumors in rats (hotly debated), have been known to decrease fertility and lifespan of cattle using feed, and have even (boldly) been linked to birth defects. Despite the more bold accusations, I've come across enough research that unilaterally suggests GMOs are seen by the body's immune system to be a foreign entity rather than a nutritious source of food, which means that by default, non GMO foods are healthier.

As per studies regarding solutions to GMO foods, the answer is simple. Stop planting them...

..which they won't since the sitting head of the FDA is a former Monsanto executive, so our only choice is to stop buying them. Yes, in a sense, that means that organic food (per my subjective definition) would be the solution. Your solution regarding informative press has been done before countless times via documentaries, clinical studies, testing of the first two phases (with the third phase being unintentional), and online sources across the web and nothing comes to fruition. Follow the money trail and its not hard to see why (outside of mass cultural ignorance). Similar to tobacco due to the heavy lobbying industry it has bred, GMOs will not be illegal in this country for the foreseeable future due to the strong governmental ties these dealers have forged over the years. Its a sick thing to realize, but its there out in the open. In any case, we seem to be on the same page. But when you use harsh language towards 'organic' food, rather than toward organic vaping materials (which I agree shouldn't be sought as a replacement to lab-tested flavors), your point gets muddied from my perspective.

GMO Scandal: The Long Term Effects of Genetically Modified Food on Humans | Global Research

Monsanto Exec Heads FDA, and the Obama Administration’s Revolving Door Politics

Study linking GM maize to cancer must be taken seriously by regulators | John Vidal | Environment | guardian.co.uk

 

[Racehorse]

@Racehorse Can you cite a source for this or provide your research? I've worked in the organic food industry for a decade and have never heard anything like this.

I see buffalo has already supplied a link.

I do find it hard to believe that you've been involved in organic food industry and never heard of this.

The only REALLY safe organic food is that in which ZERO pesticides, herbicides, insecticides, botanicals or minerals are used.

And unfortuately, I know of no large scale organic farms that can operate that way. Their yields would be literally eaten alive before they could even harvest it. Even a small scale organic farmer in certain environments would have trouble growing w/out any of this stuff.

I've been in the fields, on both small scale and larger scale organic farms. As well as a few aquaponic and hydroponic farms (which I am less knowledgeable about but learning)------my newest neighbor is an aquaponic farmer, and I'm about to go tour his facility this month

One of the problems I have noticed with some so-called organic farms is that to be certified, they only have to free of synthetic pesticides/herbicides for THREE years. I always laugh a little, since the soil of these places still has tons of chemicals in it. The other problem is that organic pesticides are not as long lasting and therefore not as effective as the synthetic ones, and often have to be applied heavier and more often.

there is just a lot about organics and organic farming that you really have to know about before you can say it's 100% healthy. I do think it's "better", but it's certainly not in any way totally clean.

However, the beans and potatoes I grow are.

 

[myxomatosis]

Organic is not always safer and natural is not always better but it usually is. I think the answer is a gray area in between. If possible we should use science to aid ourselves to become healthier, feel better and live happier. Cheap-and-fast sells to broke people who work all the time - that's most of us. The problem is very complex and the issues are compounded but ultimately, eating healthier costs more and is sometimes not an option if you're scraping by already. People are paying more attention to where their dollars go at the very least. That's good for us all.

Someone mentioned in an earlier post (that I can't find that now) how several farmers switched to organic methods recently. That's awesome news. There's a fair share of people capitalizing on the organic industry and taking advantage of people that want to eat healthier. Competition drives those prices down and acts as a checks and balances via supply and demand. Even if the soil is only recently "cleaner", it's a step in the right direction - if he's going to do it he's got to start sometime. The price gouging isn't nearly as prevalent in organics as it is in the nutrient/supplement departments (which I don't want, cannot afford, and would enjoy receiving through conventional means, such as eating healthy things). If you've seen the organic and natural sections grow at your grocer, it's because people voted with their dollars and are trying to eat healthier.

 

[skoot]

I see buffalo has already supplied a link.

I do find it hard to believe that you've been involved in organic food industry and never heard of this.

The only REALLY safe organic food is that in which ZERO pesticides, herbicides, insecticides, botanicals or minerals are used.

And unfortuately, I know of no large scale organic farms that can operate that way. Their yields would be literally eaten alive before they could even harvest it. Even a small scale organic farmer in certain environments would have trouble growing w/out any of this stuff.

I've been in the fields, on both small scale and larger scale organic farms. As well as a few aquaponic and hydroponic farms (which I am less knowledgeable about but learning)------my newest neighbor is an aquaponic farmer, and I'm about to go tour his facility this month

One of the problems I have noticed with some so-called organic farms is that to be certified, they only have to free of synthetic pesticides/herbicides for THREE years. I always laugh a little, since the soil of these places still has tons of chemicals in it. The other problem is that organic pesticides are not as long lasting and therefore not as effective as the synthetic ones, and often have to be applied heavier and more often.

there is just a lot about organics and organic farming that you really have to know about before you can say it's 100% healthy. I do think it's "better", but it's certainly not in any way totally clean.

However, the beans and potatoes I grow are.

Yes, and I did follow up on some of the links I found. There was very little beyond "we don't know what these organic pesticides do yet." I was already aware of several methods, such as neem but not aware of some of the others. I see far, far less evidence of the dangers of organic pesticides than for conventional pesticides though, which are thoroughly studied. Also, the organic pesticides are biodegradable, unlike conventional. Another wild card is how easily the organic pesticides are washed off, I have no information on this though. From your earlier post I was expecting to see direct, confirmed links between organic pesticides and disease, which is what I was referring to when I said I was unaware.

 

[buffaloguy]

Okay, okay fine. When it comes to food itself then maybe organic is a better option in some cases. Just keep in mind tho there is plenty of food product not grown organically that isnt GMO either. What we need is labeling of gmo foods.

We are heading off topic tho as well. I still say organic still truly cannot be organic and if it is the definition of what orgainic is constantly changes by what we do to our enviornment. For better or worse.

I agree with everything you said outside of these two tidbits. Organic food (subjectively defined as GMO-free and additive-free, not going by the legal definition which is intentionally vague for marketability purposes) is indeed better for your health than GMO foods or other highly processed foods. As I stated earlier, GMOs cause auto immune response, cause tumors in rats (hotly debated), have been known to decrease fertility and lifespan of cattle using feed, and have even (boldly) been linked to birth defects. Despite the more bold accusations, I've come across enough research that unilaterally suggests GMOs are seen by the body's immune system to be a foreign entity rather than a nutritious source of food, which means that by default, non GMO foods are healthier.

As per studies regarding solutions to GMO foods, the answer is simple. Stop planting them...

..which they won't since the sitting head of the FDA is a former Monsanto executive, so our only choice is to stop buying them. Yes, in a sense, that means that organic food (per my subjective definition) would be the solution. Your solution regarding informative press has been done before countless times via documentaries, clinical studies, testing of the first two phases (with the third phase being unintentional), and online sources across the web and nothing comes to fruition. Follow the money trail and its not hard to see why (outside of mass cultural ignorance). Similar to tobacco due to the heavy lobbying industry it has bred, GMOs will not be illegal in this country for the foreseeable future due to the strong governmental ties these dealers have forged over the years. Its a sick thing to realize, but its there out in the open. In any case, we seem to be on the same page. But when you use harsh language towards 'organic' food, rather than toward organic vaping materials (which I agree shouldn't be sought as a replacement to lab-tested flavors), your point gets muddied from my perspective.

GMO Scandal: The Long Term Effects of Genetically Modified Food on Humans | Global Research

Monsanto Exec Heads FDA, and the Obama Administration’s Revolving Door Politics

Study linking GM maize to cancer must be taken seriously by regulators | John Vidal | Environment | guardian.co.uk

 

[skoot]

Okay, okay fine. When it comes to food itself then maybe organic is a better option in some cases. Just keep in mind tho there is plenty of food product not grown organically that isnt GMO either. What we need is labeling of gmo foods.

We are heading off topic tho as well. I still say organic still truly cannot be organic and if it is the definition of what orgainic is constantly changes by what we do to our enviornment. For better or worse.

Absolutely we need to label GMOs. And I agree, "organic" really means "just about the best we can do with the planet we have."