No one talks organic?

[CookingWithGuns]

one more comment before it is locked....

Seems to me, us vapers should be championing GMOs. Just like e-cigs, GMOs get a bad rap because of junk science, and politically/financially motivated big business.

 

[Myk]

Yeah, when you think about it, you realize that you must hate science to hate most GMOs.

quick edit: What I mean, is that except for a few far and between examples (and none currently), GMOs have been GREAT for us as both consumers and people in third world countries who need food badly. The few GMO products that actually had bad side effects actually saved countless lives, but were bad long-term, and of course came from the ever greedy immoral Monsanto

one more comment before it is locked....

Seems to me, us vapers should be championing GMOs. Just like e-cigs, GMOs get a bad rap because of junk science, and politically/financially motivated big business.

Since this is obviously about produce (the stuff that goes into making VG and flavor extracts) and not prescription drug therapies, what GMO produce has saved lives?
Unless you're talking about the kids of a Monsanto exec who would just "die" if they were seen in anything but the best clothes.

The junk science is the government approving something for big corporations because they pay off the government rather than allowing science to follow its course. I was militant organic when GMO crops were being invented. It didn't take a rocket scientists to predict all the things that did go wrong would.
Who hates science, the ones using science to say no, or the ones who use friends in high places to pass laws to ignore science so they can profit?

Trust me, I really hate the junk scientists who are blaming Crohn's/Colitis on GMO, ignoring the fact that GMO came about in '94/'95 while IBD has been around since about 800AD and was discovered/named in the '30's, but you're taking a leap just as far off the other side of the bridge.

It would make as much sense for vapers to support BigT adding chemicals to cigarettes out of principle.
If you want to talk about GMO and ecigs stick to the facts and not some imagined morality of the imaginary enemy of my imaginary enemy is my imaginary friend.
VG and flavorings are so refined they can't be tested for GMO and the only way to test any GMO/non-GMO claims is to trace the supply line to the source. That means GMO is a non-issue as far as vaping is concerned.

 

[skoot]

GMOs have been GREAT for us as both consumers and people in third world countries

Yeah, really good for third world countries. Every 30 seconds a farmer in India kills himself because of GMO agriculture practices.

Indian Farmers Committing Suicide as a Result of Monsanto's GM Crops

 

[Sm0kyBlue]

Kinda glad, the op brought a good point.
He has tried to not argue, and yeps, it might be a wreck of a thread.. he has some good intentions, and there are people here that do care what they eat and vape/drip.

The one thing no one has brought up is..

info sheets.

In a way, with regulations coming, and we all know they are, it would be nice to see the ingredients listed on say a mocha flavor from any given flavor company, to add to our experience. Sadly tho, the gmo/organic ideas, theories, working ethnics, the lawyers, the ruins of our world.. will always be a hot topic.

There are pros and cons to everything.. The one thing that I see is lost, is the respect and ability to agree to disagree and not poke fun at people.. pubes?? lol Really now.. I should hope a man wouldn't want to see that on another man, and his picture is just fine. could have gone a lil lower there, tho I hope you haven't scared him off..

I'd like to see him welcomed, since he only has so many posts.. I wish there was more than a few that actually has showed on this thread, a level headed thought process.

 

[Acidspring13]

A great place to or from is Quantum Vapor HQ all their juices are organic with 0 chem tast i switched to them a few months ago and i wont vape anything else the tast is just sooooo much better

 

[FACE MEAT]

The one thing that I see is lost, is the respect and ability to agree to disagree and not poke fun at people.. pubes?? lol Really now.. I should hope a man wouldn't want to see that on another man, and his picture is just fine. could have gone a lil lower there, tho I hope you haven't scared him off..

The avatar I was referring to has since been changed to something less pornographic.

 

[CookingWithGuns]

Yeah, really good for third world countries. Every 30 seconds a farmer in India kills himself because of GMO agriculture practices.

Indian Farmers Committing Suicide as a Result of Monsanto's GM Crops

I hate Monsanto, but that was proven false long ago, and was designed as a business tactic to compete better with Monsanto. While the suicide rate in India increased, it wasn't as much as in other countries, and the suicide rate among farmers stayed roughly the same as before Monsanto entered the market. On top of that, it was shoddy Indian non-GMO related business practices that broke some farms after Monsanto entered the cotton market there. The farms that actually used Monsanto's seeds as directed, prospered. Farmers learned this soon enough and now their cotton farms are earning about 50% more with about 25% increase in yield. Even one of the biggest haters of Monsanto and GMOs entering India, Dr. Glenn Stone of WashU, his latest studies from just 2012 showed it wasn't a just short-term benefit for the richest their as he first championed, but rather a long-term benefit to everyone connected to the cotton field. Here is a picture for you...

Anyone who thinks most GMOs are harmful and designed for nefarious purposes needs to study up on Norman Borlaug, who saved hundreds of millions if not a billion people with him GMO wheat

 

[Sm0kyBlue]

The avatar I was referring to has since been changed to something less pornographic.

and I missed that??

I hate Monsanto, but that was proven false long ago, and was designed as a business tactic to compete better with Monsanto. While the suicide rate in India increased, it wasn't as much as in other countries, and the suicide rate among farmers stayed roughly the same as before Monsanto entered the market. On top of that, it was shoddy Indian non-GMO related business practices that broke some farms after Monsanto entered the cotton market there. The farms that actually used Monsanto's seeds as directed, prospered. Farmers learned this soon enough and now their cotton farms are earning about 50% more with about 25% increase in yield. Even one of the biggest haters of Monsanto and GMOs entering India, Dr. Glenn Stone of WashU, his latest studies from just 2012 showed it wasn't a just short-term benefit for the richest their as he first championed, but rather a long-term benefit to everyone connected to the cotton field. Here is a picture for you...

Anyone who thinks most GMOs are harmful and designed for nefarious purposes needs to study up on Norman Borlaug, who saved hundreds of millions if not a billion people with him GMO wheat

the biggest thing I dislike on gmo...

You can't get them to regrow.

Meaning.. if you get a seed from a gmo item.. and plant it the following year.. forget about it.. It will not regrow..

the next biggest?

Monsanto is taking people to court, when their seeds cross-pollenate.. How does one accept, when the wind blows, there goes the neighborhoods..


There is no way to stop it. None.

 

[CookingWithGuns]

the biggest thing I dislike on gmo...

You can't get them to regrow.

Meaning.. if you get a seed from a gmo item.. and plant it the following year.. forget about it.. It will not regrow..

This isn't in all cases, and in fact it is more often an non-intentional byproduct of the modifications than a financial motive. Many are trying to find a way around this while keeping the benefits of the modifications. On top of that, the yield increase tends to be large enough that even with full re-purchasing, the farm profits are still increasing.

the next biggest?

Monsanto is taking people to court, when their seeds cross-pollenate.. How does one accept, when the wind blows, there goes the neighborhoods..

There is no way to stop it. None.

It is bull, but that is the way patent law is going in the US now. Purchasing something no longer makes it yours, you are only renting nowadays. Want to solve this issue with Monsanto, have all the farms unite and only purchase from Monsanto with a contract saying they own the seeds purchased.

 

[Hoosier]

Kinda glad, the op brought a good point.

The point I saw was Organic is always better. Illogical because it's an absolute. Many toxic and dangerous substances are very natural and can be made in an organic manner. When dealing with inhaling things, having a mindset that organic makes sure it better, like it is a grade, is dangerous to the vaper.

He has tried to not argue, and yeps, it might be a wreck of a thread..

Right, didn't argue. Just told posters that his post on an open forum wasn't for them. Like it was a private kind of thing not meant for us unwashed masses. It infers elitism with nearly a scream.

he has some good intentions, and there are people here that do care what they eat and vape/drip.

My grandmother told me the road to... someplace not desired is paved with good intentions.
I only responded because I do care what I eat and vape. My garden is full of organically grown stuff that feeds my family. I know the farmers who raise my meat and how they care for their stock. I also know the folks who butcher it and I keep my table supplied with sources I know and have researched. (One of the advantages of living in the heart of a farming community and one of the reasons I picked this place to raise my family.) But nothing I posted has anything to do with produce, food, or anything me, or mine, eat. It was only about vaping and mixing (specifically flavoring).

Just because I think the OP needs to do some more research and gain a deeper understanding of juice components does not mean in any way, shape or form, that I do not care what I drip and vape. Nothing could be further from the truth. Risk assessment and determining what you are willing to vape is a personal thing and mistaken concepts such as organic= high grade=always better does not help an individual with their personal risk assessments.

If the OP's concept had merit, it can stand up to argument, even shine.

Frankly I don't give a flying fig about avatars or post count. All that meaningless to me. The only things that matter is the ideas and the attitude they are presented with.

Bold sweeping statements should be backed with a fantastic array of facts that can be presented in a logical manner. "Carrots are the most dangerous and toxic thing on the planet." "I won't argue the point" If I were to make these types of statements in an open forum, I should be prepared to bring the facts. And they should be better than, "All the solders who died in the US Civil War ate at least one carrot before they died.", or, "People die in hospitals everyday and hospitals buy carrots by the case to feed the patients."

I have some pretty dark evidence on chairs too, but I'll leave that be. ;7

 

[Aheadatime]

1. This isn't in all cases, and in fact it is more often an non-intentional byproduct of the modifications than a financial motive.

2. Many are trying to find a way around this while keeping the benefits of the modifications.

3. On top of that, the yield increase tends to be large enough that even with full re-purchasing, the farm profits are still increasing.

I'm sorry, what? I've numbered your sentences to try to understand them better as individual points.

1. You're telling me that Monsanto suing independent small business for cross pollination which took place due to Monsanto planting large acreage of crop upwind repeatedly is unintentional? If it was unintentional, why was there a lawsuit? The lawsuit is the obvious X factor in this piece of information. Since Monsanto's seeds self-destruct after the first harvest, the cross-pollinated crops could only yield one season's worth of Monsanto crap, giving Monsanto no need to worry as far as economic longevity is concerned. The self-destructing aspect of these seeds was designed with clear intent. Monsanto knows very well how cross pollination occurs and how to avoid it. The lawsuits have been put forth with an intensity that has resulted in numerous smaller farms in the states being shut down due to financial burden. Which one of those three things were you saying was unintended?

2. Who exactly were you referring to? Monsanto or smaller farmers? It couldn't be Monsanto, because given their vast array of expertise in the field, one would assume they know full well how to prevent cross pollination. You seem to think they're absolute geniuses and the saviors of this planet, so would you really buy the idea that they had no clue planting vast acreage of GMO crops upwind to smaller farms would cross pollinate them over time? You also couldn't have been referring to the smaller farmers, as there is obviously a very large movement of localized small business owners protesting Monsanto's crop takeover. I don't even need links or studies for that one, it's all over the place. California attempted to label GMO products in the grocery store via lawsuit a year back or so, and you can see which companies joined which side during that case if you'd like. It's pretty telling.

3. Absolute ignorance. The ability to re-plant seeds next season and sell off the extras is a long-standing staple of the crop industry, and is the basis behind particular states having tastier versions of certain fruits and vegetables (resulting from selective breeding regarding phenotypes [think Michigan cherries], a practice that is dying incredibly fast due to GMOs) which is why this particular aspect of GMO seed has been so widely publicized. It's a terrifying thing and was implemented solely on the idea of economic stranglehold. I have a link that will help tie this point in with the other point regarding Indian farmer suicide rates. Your dinky little graph didn't have a source attached, and I'd like to know where it came from and which organization was behind it. In the meantime, I have an article published by the New York University School of Law's Center for Human Rights and Global Justice that has over 20 pages of citation relating to legal cases as well as international agricultural statistical analysis that you should read through.

http://www.chrgj.org/publications/docs/every30min.pdf

That link also helps break down the economic standpoint of GMO implementation. It costs money to purchase these seeds, fertilizers, and pesticides, much more money than it has ever cost. The prospect of re-planting seeds and re-selling the extras used to be a financial practice, but now it is impossible and those who attempt it get sued. Their GMO crops also require much more water than the average crop, which most countries simply can't afford on such a massive scale. The Indian farmer issue is very real, but it's not an isolated incident when it comes to the stern rejection of GMO implementation on an international basis. Several countries have banned GMO foods outright, while others have a sort of internal dispute regarding their use, resulting in particular areas of countries banning them with other areas of the same country allowing them but with proper labeling.

List of Countries That Ban GMO Crops and Require GE Food Labels | Natural Revolution

It is bull, but that is the way patent law is going in the US now. Purchasing something no longer makes it yours, you are only renting nowadays. Want to solve this issue with Monsanto, have all the farms unite and only purchase from Monsanto with a contract saying they own the seeds purchased.

Or Monsanto could .... of the business of patenting seeds that self-destruct, are incredibly prone to cross pollinating, require more water, and come pre-packaged with negative side efffects, and stop raping the world's agricultural industry financially via generally morally awful practices surrounding financial pursuit. It won't happen, since our lovely government has backed them so hardcore due to painfully clear backdoor ties (head of FDA agricultural department is former Monsanto exec, as I linked earlier), which leaves the decision making to the populous, which is even scarier. Most people, like yourself, either think GMOs will save the planet or simply have no clue whatsoever that they exist and/or are so prevalent throughout the supermarket, making their decision making process severely limited. I'm not sure what to do to remedy the situation other than stay informed, and keep my friends and family informed, but going around saying that GMOs will save our species and that you hate science if you don't agree doesn't help at all, it just makes you look kinda kooky.

And yes, I know very well who Norman Borlaug is. He cannot be compared to the modern GMO industry on any level sans ignorance. Controlling the parental genetic code, thickening stems via LST, and selectively breeding phenogenetic traits have no negative impact on the crops, the individuals eating them, the farmers who produce and sell them, or the neighboring biosphere. If you truly knew his work and had a working understanding of modern day genetic splicing practices, you'd probably be on my side.

 

[Sm0kyBlue]

The point I saw was Organic is always better. Illogical because it's an absolute. Many toxic and dangerous substances are very natural and can be made in an organic manner. When dealing with inhaling things, having a mindset that organic makes sure it better, like it is a grade, is dangerous to the vaper.



Right, didn't argue. Just told posters that his post on an open forum wasn't for them. Like it was a private kind of thing not meant for us unwashed masses. It infers elitism with nearly a scream.



My grandmother told me the road to... someplace not desired is paved with good intentions.
I only responded because I do care what I eat and vape. My garden is full of organically grown stuff that feeds my family. I know the farmers who raise my meat and how they care for their stock. I also know the folks who butcher it and I keep my table supplied with sources I know and have researched. (One of the advantages of living in the heart of a farming community and one of the reasons I picked this place to raise my family.) But nothing I posted has anything to do with produce, food, or anything me, or mine, eat. It was only about vaping and mixing (specifically flavoring).

Just because I think the OP needs to do some more research and gain a deeper understanding of juice components does not mean in any way, shape or form, that I do not care what I drip and vape. Nothing could be further from the truth. Risk assessment and determining what you are willing to vape is a personal thing and mistaken concepts such as organic= high grade=always better does not help an individual with their personal risk assessments.

If the OP's concept had merit, it can stand up to argument, even shine.

Frankly I don't give a flying fig about avatars or post count. All that meaningless to me. The only things that matter is the ideas and the attitude they are presented with.

Bold sweeping statements should be backed with a fantastic array of facts that can be presented in a logical manner. "Carrots are the most dangerous and toxic thing on the planet." "I won't argue the point" If I were to make these types of statements in an open forum, I should be prepared to bring the facts. And they should be better than, "All the solders who died in the US Civil War ate at least one carrot before they died.", or, "People die in hospitals everyday and hospitals buy carrots by the case to feed the patients."

I have some pretty dark evidence on chairs too, but I'll leave that be. ;7

Hoosier, you know I didn't call any names out sides.. you just put things in a way I couldn't say..

My mom told me there is a time and a place for everything.. and that just makes me enjoy a good topic like this

I do like your:

If the OP's concept had merit, it can stand up to argument, even shine.

Frankly I don't give a flying fig about avatars or post count. All that meaningless to me. The only things that matter is the ideas and the attitude they are presented with.

_________

and I wish for this topic to go on.. after all, I am still learning myself.. Who knows

 

[Hoosier]

Hoosier, you know I didn't call any names out sides.. you just put things in a way I couldn't say..

Well there are a few words for my posts. Many of them will not make it through the ECF filters.

I once heard someone say I was "brusque zen", which is an amazingly polite way to put it. (There have been other polite words, but brusque zen tickled my funny bone the most.) Not sure how my long posts fit with the brusque part, but I still like it because brusque was used to describe me in a performance review once. I just wish my rememberer would let me remember the handle of the member who called me that.

I am glad you took my post as I meant it. I guess I'll let it get back to GMO's and organic processes which I don't wish to comment on. (Psst, I use beer for slug control. The slimy alcoholics can't resist drowning in a plate of beer. Just harvested a mess of bib lettuce which reminded me I need more beer for the lettuce's plates.)

 

[T1lVl]

I have one life. I'm going to die no matter so I'm going to enjoy it 100% no matter if its fake,organic or artificial.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Iffy]

OK, finally ran outta Monsanto popcorn! But still have some beer left... therefore...

 

[CookingWithGuns]

I'm sorry, what? I've numbered your sentences to try to understand them better as individual points.

1. You're telling me that Monsanto suing independent small business for cross pollination which took place due to Monsanto planting large acreage of crop upwind repeatedly is unintentional? If it was unintentional, why was there a lawsuit? The lawsuit is the obvious X factor in this piece of information. Since Monsanto's seeds self-destruct after the first harvest, the cross-pollinated crops could only yield one season's worth of Monsanto crap, giving Monsanto no need to worry as far as economic longevity is concerned. The self-destructing aspect of these seeds was designed with clear intent. Monsanto knows very well how cross pollination occurs and how to avoid it. The lawsuits have been put forth with an intensity that has resulted in numerous smaller farms in the states being shut down due to financial burden. Which one of those three things were you saying was unintended?

1. Since the court ruling, the farmers are not liable for cross-pollinated crops unless they themselves bought the patented seeds in the first place. Any cross-pollination from natural means (ie: wind) they are not held liable for.
2. If they self-destruct after being naturally deposited (so the farmer isn't liable and can sell the crop), so what. They got an increased yield at a decreased price. win-win.
3. I said "more often than not" it is unintentional. Key phrase there. Monsanto is one of the few exceptions to the standard (for the most part).

2. Who exactly were you referring to? Monsanto or smaller farmers? It couldn't be Monsanto, because given their vast array of expertise in the field, one would assume they know full well how to prevent cross pollination. You seem to think they're absolute geniuses and the saviors of this planet, so would you really buy the idea that they had no clue planting vast acreage of GMO crops upwind to smaller farms would cross pollinate them over time? You also couldn't have been referring to the smaller farmers, as there is obviously a very large movement of localized small business owners protesting Monsanto's crop takeover. I don't even need links or studies for that one, it's all over the place. California attempted to label GMO products in the grocery store via lawsuit a year back or so, and you can see which companies joined which side during that case if you'd like. It's pretty telling.

1. We weren't talking cross-pollination, which could actually wind up removing the self-destruct part of the product. We were talking about re-planting abilities. And for all their expertise in the field, it is still a VERY COMPLEX and ADVANCED field, hence all the money spent there. They spend billions trying to increase yields by barely a percentage point, yet you think it is a simple as snapping your fingers to prevent cross-pollination? Seems to me you are the one assuming they are absolute geniuses.

2. Small farmers, actually farmers, rarely do the scientific research behind the modifications, so I don't know why you brought them into this. However my point was that most of the field (which while Monsanto is the biggest, they don't even make up 5% of the R&D), don't operate like Monsanto usually does. They are the ones that are really trying to get rid of the self-destruct aspect (that is usually an unintended side-effect) of their modifications.

3. As for the labeling of GMOs. Why don't you look who is pushing that behind the scenes. The GMO-industry doesn't really care because people are going to buy them anyways for cost and nutrition reasons. Whereas Big Organic (which usually isn't actually truly organic) is a huge contributor to pushing for labeling solely so they can score extra sales via fearmongering.

3. Absolute ignorance. The ability to re-plant seeds next season and sell off the extras is a long-standing staple of the crop industry, and is the basis behind particular states having tastier versions of certain fruits and vegetables (resulting from selective breeding regarding phenotypes [think Michigan cherries], a practice that is dying incredibly fast due to GMOs) which is why this particular aspect of GMO seed has been so widely publicized. It's a terrifying thing and was implemented solely on the idea of economic stranglehold. I have a link that will help tie this point in with the other point regarding Indian farmer suicide rates. Your dinky little graph didn't have a source attached, and I'd like to know where it came from and which organization was behind it. In the meantime, I have an article published by the New York University School of Law's Center for Human Rights and Global Justice that has over 20 pages of citation relating to legal cases as well as international agricultural statistical analysis that you should read through.

1. I did a search, seems the graph came from Scientific America, but I've seen it around. Also, you can look up the actual suicide numbers yourself and see it follows the graph.
2. I agree that the ability to re-plant seeds is a staple. However the court case had NOTHING TO DO WITH FARMS outside it was a farmer in the case. It had to do with patent law. Hell Monsanto (and the rest of the GMO industry) weren't even the main funders of lobbying in support of their own case!

And yes, I know very well who Norman Borlaug is. He cannot be compared to the modern GMO industry on any level sans ignorance. Controlling the parental genetic code, thickening stems via LST, and selectively breeding phenogenetic traits have no negative impact on the crops, the individuals eating them, the farmers who produce and sell them, or the neighboring biosphere. If you truly knew his work and had a working understanding of modern day genetic splicing practices, you'd probably be on my side.

He has spoken directly to people like you who seem to hate GMOs, saying they are needed and are necessary and are good. He can be compared to the modern GMO industry. He is the reason for it. I do understand the modern day genetic practices, and I'm not on your side. It just reinforces my stance, and make people like you seem even more uninformed and misguided.

It seems to me you use Monsanto as the basis to your hatred. Smart move given they are the black sheep in the field. The loudest mouth, the most money, the most non-ethical and non-moral in the field, spend the most in the field, yet make up but a small fraction of the field. You condemn an entire field, practice, industry, based on a couple of actions by one in the field. Are all Christians like the WBC? Are all Muslims like Al-Qaeda? All baseball players like A-Rod? All women like Marisa Tomei? All men like Brad Pitt? NO. Attack Monsanto all you want, I'm on your side there. However, not supporting GMOs (especially in agriculture), well not only do I believe that is stupidity, but I believe it is a recipe for a heart-wrenching, painful, torturous form of population control.

 

[we2rcool]

However, not supporting GMOs (especially in agriculture), well not only do I believe that is stupidity, but I believe it is a recipe for a heart-wrenching, painful, torturous form of population control.

It is ashame that Monsanto (and their counterparts) create false studies and false publicity that counteract the truth...so that very real people with very adequate critical thinking skills can be deceived...and then repeat the deceptions so convincingly when confronted.

Independent researchers (many of whom have had their careers destroyed in the process by Monsanto, et al) have proven the health & environmental dangers of GMO plants many times over. Empirical evidence & the history of Monsanto clearly proves their intentions - and it certainly NOT altruistic (to humans, the planet, or "life" of any type).

Aheadatime, I applaud your efforts and the time you have spent researching and posting the truth - and I appreciate it very much....as do the countless millions of others that have also spent (literally) months of our lives researching deeply, acknowledging & facing the facts, and doing our best to inform/warn others. KUDOS!

 

[FACE MEAT]

CookingWithGuns brought up an excellent point and I hereby propose a change of topic.

Why aren't all women like Marisa Tomei?

 

[kuritaro9]

why aren't all women like marisa tomei?

here here!!!!!!!!

 

[kuritaro9]

personally, i couldnt give less of a F%&K if its natural or GMO. i just dont like dirty stinky hippies...haha

oh, and "NATURAL" takes on a whole new meaning in some countries. when i was in korea, they would regularly fertalize crops with human waste... yep, its all natural. some farmers in japan do it too. had the honey bucket at my house sucking out the septic tank, and the same day, on my way to the local MX track, i saw that same truck and driver backed up to a rice field pumping its contents out. yup, all natural.