No online sales to Arkansas?

[coilburner]

Forgive if this was already answered, I don't feel like reading 5 pages. Doesn't that only mean that businesses located in Arkansas cant sell online? To my understanding it doesn't sound like you can buy online from other states, I could be wrong.

 

[bluecat]

Technically if the buyer is not charged sales tax at the point of purchase, they are responsible for paying use tax to their home state. Of course, no one actually voluntarily reports their out of state purchases to their home state and voluntarily pay up use tax. That's why states now have started adding use tax to their income tax returns (NY and California are two states that come to mind). In NY, the taxpayer has the option of disclosing their total out of state purchases and paying the use tax on that, or using their state taxable income, pay a use tax based on that. Of course the taxpayer can also actively report that they had zero out of state purchases (by simply entering a zero on the tax return) and not having to pay any use tax, bearing in mind that reporting zero on your tax return when it is not zero is felony tax fraud.

Yes you are and my point in the matter.

It isn't something new on state returns. It has been there for awhile. People do report it. I do. Ohio starting in 2014 is making you certify you have no out of state sales/use tax to report. Yeah..that last part is scary.

 

[mauricem00]

Technically if the buyer is not charged sales tax at the point of purchase, they are responsible for paying use tax to their home state. Of course, no one actually voluntarily reports their out of state purchases to their home state and voluntarily pay up use tax. That's why states now have started adding use tax to their income tax returns (NY and California are two states that come to mind). In NY, the taxpayer has the option of disclosing their total out of state purchases and paying the use tax on that, or using their state taxable income, pay a use tax based on that. Of course the taxpayer can also actively report that they had zero out of state purchases (by simply entering a zero on the tax return) and not having to pay any use tax, bearing in mind that reporting zero on your tax return when it is not zero is felony tax fraud.

and of course we are all perfectly honest on out tax returns and the state is going to waste thousands of dollars to determine if a person is avoiding one hundred dollars in taxes. "A MORAL MAN HAS A RIGHT AND AN OBLIGATION TO VIOLATE AN UNJUST LAW" THOMAS JEFFERSON

 

[Racehorse]

Why does this sound like Prohibition?

Prohibition completely outlawed the manufacture, storage, bottling, transport and sale of alcohol.

I don't see the parallels here, maybe I am missing something?

eliquid will still be manufactured, stored, bottled, transported and sold. It just requires that you have a permit to do business. The cost of the permit is $50.

Here is the notice that came out on May 1st. Everyone in retail already knew about it---
http://www.atc.ar.gov/Documents/LCM.pdf

"All NEW Retail Cigarette, tobacco, Vapor Product and Alternative Nicotine Product Permits issued on or after July 21, 2015 will be $50.00."

So, $50 to to run a business in AR if you sell eliquid, tobacco, etc. (Surprised me, I thought it would be like $500+).


I suspect most states will be going in this direction, not just AR.

Basically, they want to make sure that nobody under 18 can buy eliquid, and online verification of age can't be properly *verified*. In 2004 AR banned the sales of cigarettes over the internet for the same reason, essentially.

 

[jseah]

and of course we are all perfectly honest on out tax returns and the state is going to waste thousands of dollars to determine if a person is avoiding one hundred dollars in taxes. "A MORAL MAN HAS A RIGHT AND AN OBLIGATION TO VIOLATE AN UNJUST LAW" THOMAS JEFFERSON

About 20 years ago, one of my high tech executive clients had forgotten to include some investment interest under his children's name on his California state tax return. It would have increased his California tax liability by $5. I contacted the California Franchise Tax Board, and they told me to don't bother about filing an amended return. It would cost them more to process an amended return, or to issue a tax notice, than they would collect in additional tax.

 

[R2sojr]

Same concept with Cuban cigars. Yea there illegal but I still get em.. SSshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

[Racehorse]

Sorry, Racehorse, I was referring to the business quoted in first post, stating they have obtained an Arkansas vapor product permit. I'm not positive, but I believe existing tobacco permit holders were sent a letter indicating they simply need to opt in, then renewal time next year, they get a tobacco AND vapor product permit.

Yes we were both right about this:

"If you have an existing Retail Cigarette & Tobacco Permit, Wholesale Tobacco Permit or Manufacturer Tobacco Permit, those permits automatically include vapor products and alternative nicotine products effective July 21, 2015"

So in the case of the B&Ms in my town, they already have the permits because they also sell tobacco products.

http://www.atc.ar.gov/Documents/LCM.pdf

They will have to maintain invoices just as they do for tobacco products.

 

[jseah]

Prohibition completely outlawed the manufacture, storage, bottling, transport and sale of alcohol.

I don't see the parallels here, maybe I am missing something?

Eliquid will still be manufactured, stored, bottled, transported and sold. It just requires that you have a permit to do business. The cost of the permit is only $50.

Here is the notice that came out on May 1st. Everyone in retail already knew about it---
http://www.atc.ar.gov/Documents/LCM.pdf

"All NEW Retail Cigarette, Tobacco, Vapor Product and Alternative Nicotine Product Permits issued on or after July 21, 2015 will be $50.00."

So, $50 to to run a business in AR if you sell eliquid, tobacco, etc.

Seems to me that the issue is that people in Arkansas will just be stuck buying in B&M's, so they will be limited in whatever the store carries and will be stuck paying B&M prices. What sucks is that greedy store owners can use this to gouge customers.....if you're the only B&M for 150 miles, why not charge $80 for a stick battery or $150 for an iStick 50 since they won't be able to get it anywhere else.

Making lemonade out of lemons, at least it isn't as bad as that town in California (Santa Rosa?) where they have banned all future retailers from selling any tobacco or vaping products.

 

[AndriaD]

Truth is, RJ provide this bill to Arkansas, just as they provided similar bills to other states around the country. Lawmakers tweak were and there, having no idea what they're tweaking, then you end up with something that makes little sense and contradicts itself repeatedly. We spent days and hours looking at the plain language, as did others in the state, and were still left with a mess. We talked with several lawmakers and officials, before and after this passed, and they all had a different take. One senator even picked up the phone to call his friend, one of the state's tobacco lobbyist, and asked what this was about. He was told "there's a concern because right now it's legal to sell this stuff to anyone, any age." I told the senator Arkansas passed a law two years ago making it illegal to sell to minors.

If any Arkansans (or anybody else) is interested, I uploaded a marked-up doc of the bill we did last spring. The first notation is on page 4. The text that originally accompanied the doc is:

SB978 Notated for Discussion, Analysis: This is NOT an official, definitive or authoritative document in any way (that's left to judges, who may even disagree among themselves). It's intended only to encourage discussion, ideas and maybe a course of action. The PDF is notated with "sticky" notes using "plain meaning rule" to try to decode or clarify some of the more concerning clauses. If there's an interest, we can upload the word doc to Google docs for shared editing or comments.

A document this complex takes time to analyze, and we shouldn't expect to understanding it in one or two readings - or only one or two sets of eyes or one authority. We'll update the doc as we get more professional input, but it's IMPORTANT the industry approach this as a collective whole to help the INDUSTRY take action and move forward. Not all vapor businesses are the same. One may be fine with a particular set of restrictions while another may have to close their doors.

Legislatures are passing laws on an industry that makes no sense to them and as a result, the regulation makes no sense, is ambiguous or even contradictory - to it's own language and to what lawmakers may have stated or intended. Of the three primary methods used to interpret law - textual, historical and functional, textual is always first and foremost. Since there is no history yet, and the function is ulterior, or ambiguous at best, we're left with the text. Yes, we have a video of the verbal "summary" of the bill, but the video will not be part of Arkansas code.​

For the record, wholesalers and manufacturers CAN sell to end consumers PROVIDED they obtain a Retailer's permit. They CANNOT sale to end consumers via their wholesale permit. We originally were applying for all three permits, but were told to only get a manufacturer and a retail (manufacturer's permit allows us to sell wholesale, retail permit allows us to sell direct to end consumer).

And this IS a violation of the federal commerce clause, but attorneys we've talked with basically say "forget it." In Arkansas at least (this will get interesting when federal laws trump state laws), these are vapor products falling under ATC regulation along side tobacco products. All existing state laws regulating tobacco do not automatically apply to vapor products. It's wrong to assume that laws preventing online cigarette sales automatically extend to vapor products. At least for the time being...

Geez... stupidity makes my brain hurt anytime, but from our lawmakers???? GAHHHHHHHH.....

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

and of course we are all perfectly honest on out tax returns and the state is going to waste thousands of dollars to determine if a person is avoiding one hundred dollars in taxes. "A MORAL MAN HAS A RIGHT AND AN OBLIGATION TO VIOLATE AN UNJUST LAW" THOMAS JEFFERSON

And Thoreau followed that up quite brilliantly with Civil Disobedience. Which I believe was a signal influence on the independence of India, and the end of segregation in the US.

Andria

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Prohibition completely outlawed the manufacture, storage, bottling, transport and sale of alcohol.

I don't see the parallels here, maybe I am missing something?

Eliquid will still be manufactured, stored, bottled, transported and sold. It just requires that you have a permit to do business. The cost of the permit is $50.

Here is the notice that came out on May 1st. Everyone in retail already knew about it---
http://www.atc.ar.gov/Documents/LCM.pdf

"All NEW Retail Cigarette, Tobacco, Vapor Product and Alternative Nicotine Product Permits issued on or after July 21, 2015 will be $50.00."

So, $50 to to run a business in AR if you sell eliquid, tobacco, etc. (Surprised me, I thought it would be like $500+).


I suspect most states will be going in this direction, not just AR.

Basically, they want to make sure that nobody under 18 can buy eliquid, and online verification of age can't be properly *verified*. In 2004 AR banned the sales of cigarettes over the internet for the same reason, essentially.

Actually prohibition did not completely outlaw the manufacture, storage, bottling, transport and sale of alcohol. there were still some authorized distillers for medicinal purposes. Whiskey could still be and was prescribed by doctors.

 

[AndriaD]

Actually prohibition did not completely outlaw the manufacture, storage, bottling, transport and sale of alcohol. there were still some authorized distillers for medicinal purposes. Whiskey could still be and was prescribed by doctors.

Yep... and a fair amount of organized crime's efforts were in the hijacking of that legal alcohol -- because nobody wanted booze that could kill them or make them go blind.

Andria

 

[jseah]

Yep... and a fair amount of organized crime's efforts were in the hijacking of that legal alcohol -- because nobody wanted booze that could kill them or make them go blind.

Andria

And Detroit became a huge smuggling hub since it was close to Chicago and Windsor Ontario where liquor was still legal was just across the Detroit River.

 

[stevegmu]

Halo stil sells to Arkansas and the bill has already gone into effect. Looks like business as usual...

 

[James Wilson]

It seems clear now what our government really wants.

1. More Money
2. For us to choke to death on cancer sticks.
3. For our health to worsen so we have to seek health care.

They don't care if this helps big tobacco. Big tobacco gets the following.
1. More money from cigarettes sales.
2. A monopoly on the vaping market.

Pharmaceutical Industries also get their cut. Them and the entire health care industry makes a crap load on our poor health and the stop smoking aids they offer don't do anything to help. Some just make things a lot worse.

Fact is no one in our government or health care industry really cares about our health. They don't care about the health of the adults or the kids. Yet they love to use the excuse "Think of the children". I hate this crap.

 

[Racehorse]

And Thoreau followed that up quite brilliantly with Civil Disobedience. Which I believe was a signal influence on the independence of India, and the end of segregation in the US.

Andria

Many people lost their lives, and were even tortured, etc. fighting for an end to segregation in the US....just to obtain the most basic and fundamental of human rights, which had been violated for decades.


A very sad time in our history, and in no way, shape or form even distantly comparable to people not being able to order eliquid online.

The people of India also fighting for the most fundamental rights and were prohibited from even governing themselves or participating in making their own laws, to get an education, to use public space, freedom of movement and of free expression, etc. .... and Gandhi was assassinated during a prayer vigil.

Don't really like seeing these hyperbolic comparisons, it's an insult to people who have truly suffered in order to just live normal lives and even walk down the street.

 

[AndriaD]

It seems clear now what our government really wants.

1. More Money
2. For us to choke to death on cancer sticks.
3. For our health to worsen so we have to seek health care.

They don't care if this helps big tobacco. Big tobacco gets the following.
1. More money from cigarettes sales.
2. A monopoly on the vaping market.

Pharmaceutical Industries also get their cut. Them and the entire health care industry makes a crap load on our poor health and the stop smoking aids they offer don't do anything to help. Some just make things a lot worse.

Fact is no one in our government or health care industry really cares about our health. They don't care about the health of the adults or the kids. Yet they love to use the excuse "Think of the children". I hate this crap.

Andria

 

[stevegmu]

Many people lost their lives, and were even tortured, etc. fighting for an end to segregation in the US....just to obtain the most basic and fundamental of human rights, which had been violated for decades.


A very sad time in our history, and in no way, shape or form even distantly comparable to people not being able to order eliquid online.

The people of India also fighting for the most fundamental rights and were prohibited from even governing themselves or participating in making their own laws, to get an education, to use public space, freedom of movement and of free expression, etc. .... and Gandhi was assassinated during a prayer vigil.

Don't really like seeing these hyperbolic comparisons, it's an insult to people who have truly suffered in order to just live normal lives and even walk down the street.

That's like calling everyone who isn't an activist a Nazi...

 

[AndriaD]

Many people lost their lives, and were even tortured, etc. fighting for an end to segregation in the US....just to obtain the most basic and fundamental of human rights, which had been violated for decades.


A very sad time in our history, and in no way, shape or form even distantly comparable to people not being able to order eliquid online.

The people of India also fighting for the most fundamental rights and were prohibited from even governing themselves or participating in making their own laws, to get an education, to use public space, freedom of movement and of free expression, etc. .... and Gandhi was assassinated during a prayer vigil.

Don't really like seeing these hyperbolic comparisons, it's an insult to people who have truly suffered in order to just live normal lives and even walk down the street.

There is no insult, and the principle is the same, even if not for the same exact stakes -- we have a duty to ourselves and to humanity to disobey senseless and unfair laws.

Given that this kind of draconian law could mean that some who might like to know the good news about e-cigs will be condemned to continue smoking because they cannot quit, it's not even that enormous of a difference. This law and others like it are directly from the Desk Murderers. Who lives or dies is totally irrelevant to them, as long as they get their MONEY.

Andria

 

[englishmick]

Just throwing this out there, but in Indiana the Senators (mostly
democrat) passed their bills(s) and the Governor (republican) signed
it into law. This is way more than one political party versus another.
Here is how the Senators in Indiana voted, just fyi.

For the record, the Indiana Senate currently has 40 Republicans and 10 Democrats. In this State the Republicans managed to do it to us all on their own.

The Arkansas Senate has 21 Republicans and 14 Democrats. I'm sure there are some Democratic States going just as hard against vaping. But the Party of Freedom has logged the 2 most restrictive State laws to date with the Stalinists struggling in second place.

The party thing is just a little trick they play to distract us and turn us against each other. Unfortunately most of the time it works. Some guy wrote a book about that.