Oh no! Another health question concerning some juices

Status
Not open for further replies.

Katya

ECF Guru
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 23, 2010
34,804
120,147
SoCal
I recently got some clearomizers, and the problem with some juices has raised some questions for me. If you put acidic juices in a clearomizer, such as orange, Atomic Cinnacide, etc, the clearomizer plastic will crack.

Which brings me to the question. What is it doing to our lungs?

Yeah.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...iew-tips-info-help-video-453.html#post2411642

I'm not sure I feel like answering your questions anymore. I just looked up some stuff but I am going to keep it simple. I don't think you have much to worry about vaping cinnacide or "orange".

I wouldn't be so sure.

I doubt cinnacide contains any cassia or cinnamon essential oil. It is derivative flavorings giving an atomic fireball flavor. Hot peppers burn your mouth too but they aren't harmful when used sanely.

AC (and other cinnamon eliquids) contain cinnamon essential oil, to the best of my knowledge. And other flavorings contain orange essential oil. They were formulated for human consumption, not for inhaling.

Essential oils are very powerful; some will burn your skin on contact and are capable of stripping paint.
 
I've seen photos of 2 separate instances of this happening. So yes, it does happen!

To be fair however, it was using flavours at well beyond their usual concentrations. I dont think it says anything at all about health risks with flavours. It's seems more a case of the clearomizer and some highly-concentrated acidic flavours not getting on terribly well.

If we had acrylic lungs and were filling them with with a juice that was 50% flavour or better I may start to worry!
 

Kurt

Quantum Vapyre
ECF Veteran
Sep 16, 2009
3,433
3,607
Philadelphia
I think the issue here is not acidity, it is the nature of the oils themselves. Cinnamon oil (cinnamaldehyde) can leach plasticisers from plastics, and will dissolve some plastics, both can lead to cracking. Orange oil can do this too. Anything that is good as dissolving grease can do this to plastics. Its what is in orange cleaner products.

And yes, they are also implicated in lung damage, especially cinnamon. Many here get mouth and throat irritation or mouth ulcers from cinnamon juices. Actually, IMHO it should not be sold for vaping. Aldehydes in general are problematic, but cinnamaldehyde especially so. Its rather corrosive. Some have no problems with it. I can't do cinnamon hardly at all, even candy. It will make my mouth raw.

Acids are actually less a problem for most plastics. These oils are in general not acids, but they do interact with plastic and plastic components. Clove oil is another plastic dissolver. Try grinding some cloves in a coffee grinder with a plastic lid and see what happens, if the plastic was smooth and shiny before grinding, it won't be after wards...it will be etched...then imagine this happening in your lungs. I don't know about the mint oils, but the citrus, clove and cinnamon oils can be a problem.
 
Last edited:

MrNate

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 10, 2011
86
0
New Jersey
I think the issue here is not acidity, it is the nature of the oils themselves. Cinnamon oil (cinnamaldehyde) can leach plasticisers from plastics, and will dissolve some plastics, both can lead to cracking. Orange oil can do this too. Anything that is good as dissolving grease can do this to plastics. Its what is in orange cleaner products.

And yes, they are also implicated in lung damage, especially cinnamon. Many here get mouth and throat irritation or mouth ulcers from cinnamon juices. Actually, IMHO it should not be sold for vaping. Aldehydes in general are problematic, but cinnamaldehyde especially so. Its rather corrosive. Some have no problems with it. I can't do cinnamon hardly at all, even candy. It will make my mouth raw.

Acids are actually less a problem for most plastics. These oils are in general not acids, but they do interact with plastic and plastic components. Clove oil is another plastic dissolver. Try grinding some cloves in a coffee grinder with a plastic lid and see what happens, if the plastic was smooth and shiny before grinding, it won't be after wards...it will be etched...then imagine this happening in your lungs. I don't know about the mint oils, but the citrus, clove and cinnamon oils can be a problem.

Lots of things can have this effect. Acrylic, in particular, has a tendency to crack when heated and cooled repeatedly, at least in my experience. I suspect that these particular flavors only accelerate the process, and we'll likely see more stories like this start to pop up with different flavors, and much speculation and head scratching will occur. It's the nature of the beast.

So, cracking acrylic is neither a positive nor a negative indicator of possible lung damage in my opinion. These flavors might well be damaging your lungs. They might not. But I don't think you can draw a reasonable correlation between what you're seeing and possible lung damage.

Kurt, back me up on this or call me an idiot. I believe you're a chemist if memory serves.
 

Katya

ECF Guru
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 23, 2010
34,804
120,147
SoCal
Many neat essential oils will burn your skin on contact and remove finish from your furniture if spilled. Doesn't that make you wonder what they can do to your lungs, mouth and throat? Citrus oils are powerful cleaners, they dissolve glue, grease and all kinds of organic matter in your garbage disposal. :facepalm:

Just sayin'. :)
 

MrNate

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 10, 2011
86
0
New Jersey
Many neat essential oils will burn your skin on contact and remove finish from your furniture if spilled. Doesn't that make you wonder what they can do to your lungs, mouth and throat? Citrus oils are powerful cleaners, they dissolve glue, grease and all kinds of organic matter in your garbage disposal. :facepalm:

Just sayin'. :)

Yes, but my point is that acrylic cracks under repeated heating/cooling cycles. These flavors in particular probably accelerate the process, but I wouldn't get too hung up on the cracking or you're going to be chasing down red herrings in a month or two.

There are, as you and Kurt mentioned, a number of other indicators that these may be harmful to your lungs. I'm not denying that they likely are harmful. I just don't think I'd use this in particular as a sole indicator, as the same thing will eventually occur even if you're vaping pure pg/vg. Edit: Probably. Not stating this for a fact because I haven't tried it, just basing it on my personal experience with the material.
 
Last edited:

Kurt

Quantum Vapyre
ECF Veteran
Sep 16, 2009
3,433
3,607
Philadelphia
MrNate: in theory you are correct, that cracking plastic is not necessarily an indicator of lung damage, it could just be thermal effects. And I do appreciate the rigor of trying to separate and understand the effects. But it is known that cinnamaldehyde is dangerous to the lungs. Don't have the links at my disposal now, but it is known. And there is a big difference to me between leaching plasticisers, which leads to cracking of plastic and makes you vape plasticisers too, and etching plastic, which is a breakdown of the polymer itself. Plus the lungs have their own surfactant, and inhaling others, like citrus oils, can disrupt that important barrier, if not dissolve lipid bilayers, as in cells. Lots of bio stuff dissolves in them, as well as some polymer compounds, as Katya said.

But, hey, for some these flavors are just too important, and thus vaping them, regardless of risk, is rationalized to be imperative. They are all legal, and people can vape whatever they want. Yes, I am a PhD chemist with 30 years of advanced training in physical, organic, biophysics, bio-inorganic, and theoretical research and teaching. I personally will not vape these oils, for the many reasons I and Katya have stated, based on my knowledge of them chemically, and the tissues they interact with. I don't think any of these are implicated in irreversible lung damage, like that caused by diacetyl, but there could be incremental and sustained lung impairment, which I thought was what we were trying to avoid by vaping.

Flavors are the Achilles heal of vaping, in my opinion. There are many wacky flavors out there that use compounds which are fine for foods, like meat flavors, but use compounds like organic acids, aldehydes and long-chain esters which really have been shown to be a significant risk to lung tissue, similar to diacetyl.
 

MrNate

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 10, 2011
86
0
New Jersey
MrNate: in theory you are correct, that cracking plastic is not necessarily an indicator of lung damage, it could just be thermal effects. And I do appreciate the rigor of trying to separate and understand the effects. But it is known that cinnamaldehyde is dangerous to the lungs. Don't have the links at my disposal now, but it is known.

Absolutely not disputing that in any way. Hopefully my point is getting across correctly to others as well.
 

Uma

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 4, 2010
5,991
9,998
Calif
Interesting thread.
This leads me to imagine that Vaping Cinnamon might be the answer to cleaning our lungs from the build up of tar and other carp. Knowing when to stop might be more problematic than starting...

On another note, my one and only bottle of Spiced Apple that I didn't vape very often, has left the building due to the bottle cracking and spilling out everywhere while it was stored in the dark in it's protective plastic tub case. I vaped perhaps 3ml out of the entire 10ml bottle months ago. Co-incidence? This has never happened with any of my other juices, including my AC... to date.
 

Ardeagold

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 1, 2010
475
22
Maryland
Something caught my attention that Kurt said ... "leaching plasticisers from plastics". Kurt, in your post, I'm not sure if you're stating that you feel that these flavors might do this or if they pit the plastics...or both.

The leaching was a question that I was going to ask before reading Kurt's post. If certain oils are doing this, then it can't be good to be inhaling them, because you'd be inhaling the plasticisers too, correct?
 

Katya

ECF Guru
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 23, 2010
34,804
120,147
SoCal
Aren't essential oils inaheled in aromatherapy? They are heated and vaporized in aromatherapy - no?

Correct, but they are inhaled through the nose, which happens to be a very effective filter; the mucosa and the cillia inside the nostrils capture all kinds of undesirable particulate that may be present in the vapor we're inhaling and thus prevent them from getting directly into the lungs. Besides, nobody does aromatherapy all day every day like we do with vaping. Concentration and sheer amounts of the vapor inhaled do matter probably as much as the way they are inhaled.
 

rolygate

Vaping Master
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 24, 2009
8,354
12,405
ECF Towers
Electronic cigarette timeline

2009
E-cigarettes start to become popular
The general idea is that they are a safer replacement for cigarettes
100 flavors available

2010
UK consumer statistics research report says about 50% of smokers have heard of ecigs, 6% have tried them, 3% use them [those numbers sound a bit high to me, but what do I know]
Now ecigs are seen as a viable replacement - but also a whole new gig
Hot new flavors are fun
1,000 flavors available

2011
Ecigs are a major new industry
Tobacco use drops
Mega-hot flavors available for those with asbestos lungs
5,000 flavors available

2012
Ecigs are a mainstream 'smoking' product
Reynolds and Morris shares crash
Big Pharma hysterical, nobody needs NRTs any more
Kamikaze vapers use cinammon + chilli + PGA e-liquid
10,000 flavors available

2013
Reynolds, Morris release Marlboro and Winston E-Cigs
Pfizer release Nicotroll inhaler (looks remarkably like an e-cig)
Everybody happy
15,000 super-hot flavors available including cinammon + gasoline, and chilli & kerosene
Still not hot enough for some vapers

2014
Circus fire eaters complain they are being put out of work by vapers
Hundreds of vapers need lung transplants
FDA bans all but 3 flavors as kids might like them (all flavors still available on the web of course)
Vapers' favorite is now cinammon + battery acid + napalm + a touch of menthol - it's lovely

2015
Harm reduction device sought to replace the ecig

:)
 
Last edited:

MicBang

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 27, 2009
145
2
Denmark
First off. The liquid is from Poland, but it can be done with any liquid.
Since Jesper shot the video, we have done a lot of research. The aromas used contains essential oils
Essential oil develops esters when mixed with alcohol. As you may know PG and VG are alcohols, and thus esters are developed. Esters can dissolve plastic, and phthalate (used to soften plastic) is a kind of ester.

Even 100% pure anis-seed oil (used for candy making), and on its own it does nothing to the tube. When mixed with PG (no nic) it makes the tube brittle and makes it crack.

Plz feel free to test if you have flavours that contains Essential oils

People are testing this thing on the Danish forum i hope some of you would look into this.
 

AC0J

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 21, 2010
208
27
61
Nebraska USA
  • Deleted by Elendil
  • Reason: Inappropriate comment
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread