Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

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Johntodd

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with the wicking on the outside and airflow through the center, this would maximize the contact surface area and the coil would then be allowed to use the full potential of atomization at that point with nothing to block the channel, the coil would be allowed to breath as well.

These are just my thoughts.

This is exactly what I do with my wicking. It is called the "Dragon Wick", and I learned it from The IntarWebs. It works like a charm AND is very forgiving on how much wick material is used. I never could get the right amount when wicking through the coil; too much or too little; but with the Dragon I have no problems.

I line up my airholes to draw right straight down the center of the coil. Massive flavor and vapor.

Start at about 4:10:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJMx8k-RhKc

They like to cover one end of the coil - I don't.

Thanks!
-Johntodd
 

muzichead

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I'm glad I posted a link to this thread in the other MC thread. It's seemed like that thread was just going in a direction that was very RT driven... Even worse is the other coil and wicking thread. I am sure at some point something bad is gonna happen because of what is posted there. Though I don't post here a lot, I seem to learn quite a bit. I was wrapping TMC's before it was even a thing and it has been paying off in my vape tremendously. I often thought even when I was wrapping on a 1/16' drill bit, man I'm putting a lot of tension on this thing, but knew it had to be tight to just vape right. Big props to Russ for turning me onto the coiling gizmo, as it is even easier to get my tensioned coils down to a science. Gotta give props to MacTechVpr for keeping us well informed of the actual science of all this too. Life and vaping is all 2nd nature now as I don't half to guess anymore and it's almost automatic now. No muss, no fuss vaping at it's best.... Bill, it's good to see another pioneer joining the thread also. Creative genius right there...
 

Cucco

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I'm glad I posted a link to this thread in the other MC thread. It's seemed like that thread was just going in a direction that was very RT driven... Even worse is the other coil and wicking thread. I am sure at some point something bad is gonna happen because of what is posted there. Though I don't post here a lot, I seem to learn quite a bit. I was wrapping TMC's before it was even a thing and it has been paying off in my vape tremendously. I often thought even when I was wrapping on a 1/16' drill bit, man I'm putting a lot of tension on this thing, but knew it had to be tight to just vape right. Big props to Russ for turning me onto the coiling gizmo, as it is even easier to get my tensioned coils down to a science. Gotta give props to MacTechVpr for keeping us well informed of the actual science of all this too. Life and vaping is all 2nd nature now as I don't half to guess anymore and it's almost automatic now. No muss, no fuss vaping at it's best.... Bill, it's good to see another pioneer joining the thread also. Creative genius right there...

Yes, thanks for the link. :) I have some catching up to do. :)

I wrapped new coils for my KFLs today. I love my Gizmo! I will be moving to my new house soon. I need to find 'the perfect spot', for her in my new kitchen. :)

gizmo.jpg
 

Aal_

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Just wanted to announce I will now be lurking here.

On a somewhat related note, I need a 2.5, 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0 mm drill blank and a pin vise that can handle blanks this size. (Mine can maybe handle 2.5 mm, but anything more is a struggle).

I'm vaping on a marquis right now (flipping LOVE it with twisted 27 gauge at about 0.27 ohm around the 2.5 mm mandrel, but wasn't a proper tensioned coil.
I'm using this but doesn't go beyond 3.0 mm. Not sure if there is a pin vise that does.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0082...s=pin+vise&dpPl=1&dpID=31v0q+oU6TL&ref=plSrch
 

MacTechVpr

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Just wanted to announce I will now be lurking here.

On a somewhat related note, I need a 2.5, 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0 mm drill blank and a pin vise that can handle blanks this size. (Mine can maybe handle 2.5 mm, but anything more is a struggle).

I'm vaping on a marquis right now (flipping LOVE it with twisted 27 gauge at about 0.27 ohm around the 2.5 mm mandrel, but wasn't a proper tensioned coil.

I'm using this but doesn't go beyond 3.0 mm. Not sure if there is a pin vise that does.

Professional Quality Brass Pin Vise - 4 Collets Chucks 0.0mm to 3.0mm:Amazon:Home & Kitchen

Hi Aal, brook. Brook I'd hoped by now you found what you needed. In case not and those looking…you're going to have to go industrial grade rather than the hobby market for something upwards of 3mm. Something like...

Starrett 166C Pin Vise, 0.050-0.125 In, PVC Handle


And if you're going to try duplicating some of these oversized winds like Kanger's Subtank mystery wire the above will do ya. It'll handle some of the low end more precision tensioned winds and bits down to a half inch.

Aal I've seen versions of the above style that take up to 3.2mm. And the Tamiya America Item #74112 | Fine Pin Vise D-R (0.1-3.2mm) will and is a more precise instrument. The generic eBay brass tools are a bit bulkier but give a better hand hold. I find them more comfortable than the expensive ones for winding. Most of the brass versions I've seen as you posted above have a rather pointy collet and narrow face. This make them very useful in setting the coil as you can get in close and tight to the posts. Sometimes the sturdier tools aren't as versatile.

And regardless of whether you jig or hand wind with tension...a pin vise is a handy tool to have around for mods like boring out air holes, juice channels, as a screwdriver (with some bits) and in coil installation.

Hope this helps some of you.

Good luck.

:)
 
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MacTechVpr

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Picked up post from Re: Subbies CAN go deep and rich! on the Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

Kinda got caught up in a little concern that almost stopped me in my tracks with the Mini release and the darned insulators. I thought Busardo was talking about the 510 end as so many peeps call 'em that. But it's proven to be perhaps a more serious problem. Took the time to ack jc87 whose been ringin' the bell on this here and on other forums as it's entirely credible given Kanger's apparent ack and response. IOW, possibly not just isolated incidents. But it did stop my research. MOF, just got an answer from him.

Anyway I've got an hour here and I'll do my best.

My approach as I've recommended on this thread and I'm sure cig, brook that you and others do is…to build for the device. Find out what the tank needs. Goodness we have so many tools around now and particularly so with steam-engine.com and the mod specs integrated right into the online app. I did that of course and decided to go in to opposite direction to the above. Yes build geometrically for the optimum space screw channel-to-screw channel, minimal tight leads but at the optimum efficiency I could muster to find in such a wind. It's not a beginners build but hey. I had a chance to thoroughly check this PEEK insulator question as I've got one. And tensioned parallels are easier to build and rock solid steady when the leads are twained. The method's pretty straightforward and I'll be taking it up on this thread.

Had the overall post width (over the screws) at ~3.2mm, the span between posts @ ~2.2 and the cross-post coil bed span at 7mm for the RBA accessory. My inclination, as was brook's, to go for the juggler and a workable straight-wire reproducible single. A wind that favors the common sweet spot for many APV's lately at around .8Ω. I think brook came close with his t.m.c. and glad it's workin for ya bro. Here's what I threw at it to meet the most congruent minimalist geometry...

30AWG TLP 6/5, 2.5mm i.d., 9mm L/L, t.m.c. = .5Ω



attachment.php



As I mentioned yesterday, I had to double the wicking density as it was clearly insufficient at 15W. What does this mean? Well cig for one, we may have to build more wire into these guys and chunky wicks. Or, alternatively high-flow synthetics if feasible. That may mean hybrid wicking to avoid the hula-hoop. Mind you I have been testing twisted leads for a while down to and under my personal sanity limit of .3Ω experiencing nothing but explosive performance and very cool results. But I was very skeptical about including such a wind in a small high-pressure environment that the transition benefits wouldn't be overcome by heat concentration from the likes of this…


attachment.php



Not going to show you some full temperature yields, that would be obscene. Write me. This was not a tight wind. Even at full 10-sec full temp burst, leads stayed cool. However, this was not a perfect build. One small wire imperfection may have sent the whole wind hot. And it proved so during oxidation as I had to prematurely cut it short departing from my technique. So I was expecting a rather hot build on several counts.

The wind definitely shows promise. And I must find a place to anchor wire for parallels as I'm going to be building a lot more of them than I have. Certainly for each and every block post device in my collection where they are ideally suited. They fire fast like a light single wire coil and deliver power like the high-mass wind it is. And the narrower turn width and coil thickness puts a maximum of surface area for coil length of anything you can wind. The problem with parallels as that they typically result in a slight to much drier, hotter vape. Not so in this instance or for tensioned twisted leads. That's the point.

Check in anyone needing info on producing these uniquely satisfying artifacts. And I'll be back with a follow up.

Good luck all.

:)
 

etherealink

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Hey Russ, thanks for opening this great thread on tensioned macro/micro/nano/and yes…more coils. I'm sure it's going to be a wild ride.

:D

Happy Holidays!


384643d1414382506-micro-coils-increase-vapor-flavor-th-img_1191a.jpg
Ok, I've gotta say it... I love that build. I have one that I gifted that still pulls a consistent .3Ω after more than a month.
 

etherealink

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Ha! So its been a maddening couple of days. I couldn't get the wick right after dry burning my coil. Yes, it was black, but kind of a glossy black - odd flavor, but not burnt per se.

So.... I rewick my KFL maybe 15 times in a row last night trying to get it just right, but NOTHING I mean NOTHING works.

Today, I get to the boiler room, spread out my stuff, and decide I'm going to make a fresh coil and start from scratch. 8 wraps of 29g on the custom jig arm later, I go to put it on the deck. Its right here I realize that the arm I'm wrapping on is a true 5/64", but the piece I'm using to put it on the deck isn't. Its just a hair larger.

LMFAO, I build it with a 5/64" piece from my custom jig arm, wick it, and lo and behold, its great.

I'm Vaping it right now, and it's crackling, not hissing, slightly warm, not cold, and doesn't taste like a dirty sock.

I need to perfect the wicking, but this one is golden so far. I may also try removing a wrap just to bump up the heat a bit, but this coil is great! I'll give it till the tank runs dry and then I'll let you know how gunked it is!

sent via Droid Mini
Mox,

The kfl is a beast for flavor but the wicking with rayon is touchy. I'll look and see if I still have a pic of the freshly wicked deck for you
 

etherealink

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That's a great coil Mox. Curious though as I'm sure you wound it on a mandrel that it seems to have a taper in the pic.

You're absolutely right, regardless of the wick the amount of deflection or compression of the wick is critical. Some like Eko are very intolerant of too much pressure and choke. Nextel is awesome and allows a wide variation. KGD and rayon are sensitive to having a precise deflection or they don't perform. I personally haven't found either to flow well under power with light wicking. But both will definitely scorch and gunk freely if over-pressured. Cotton and similar are all difficult and why I recommend synthetics to newcomers. Frankly, even silica if you can wick it. Yep, I get those that are happy with silica and I'll go there if they'll try a proper electrical wind. Next step Eko and other stuff including rayon because I think it's important for us to try all these things. They all work to a greater or lesser degree with different juices and for different reasons.

And yeah, just like a crimped garden hose you can induce more velocity in a wick by compressing it but not necessarily flow. So compression on the narrow side of possible diameters will give you that and it translates to more diffuse vapor (dryer) but not especially more vapor.

I'm finding 2.5mm Ø to be a great overall middle-ground for larger platforms like the MutX, Patriot, etc. with good solid beds and posts. Working quite well for verticals in jenny's and vert drippers and deep wells.

Careful with over-tensioning any type of wind. Consistently fouls the vape. If strictly cloud production is your objective the experiment is wide open. It will contribute greatly to diffusing vaped juice. Most of us can't handle that kind of dry heat, or would want to. The right level of tension just beyond adhesion will get the most uniform oxidation possible. At the right Ø for the device and chosen wick a t.m.c. will guarantee the optimum density of vapor for that configuration, period. We can diffuse the air with draw or drip tip to our preference once we get there.

Basically that's the strategy mox. It only fails to up the efficiency on braids and multi-wire like twisted as you can't maximize the close contact necessary for oxidation. So you'll see variations in the heat output across the coil and an unpredictable degree of diffusion as a result. And at the end of the day it's the most complete vaporization of the flow we've built for that we're after.

Good luck mox.

Happy Holidays all.

397353d1419024115-tensioned-micro-coils-next-step-memmhwg.jpg
Forgive me if this all has been said, I'm 17 pages behind lol

Mac, I think a point you made is right on point regarding the optimization for the build to the device.

Performance is determined by many factors and they all have a very delicate relationship to one another; just as the balance of tension has on a coil.

In the most general terms of performance, we want to be vaporizing our juice as quickly and thoroughly as possible and not boiling or cooking it. That means that we must have quick ramp up time and an equally quick cool down time to prevent gunking (it's own set of variables) with respect to battery life.

But the one thing I specifically want to comment about is matching the build to the device with regard to heat and vapor management.

Take for example, a recent build in my Doge... not my best and ready to be replaced but worth noting anyhow.
qcav2DB.jpg


Now, this is a rather abused coil, but i wanted to point out the coverage of the air holes by the coils and their proximity to them. It's been said before but, if you locate your coils as near to your airflow and maximize the coverage you control the heat much better and help your vapor production without making a monster sub ohm build.

The key here relies on a few things, the location of the coils to allow for fresh air to cool the coils after a pull and during a pull to allow the ratio of air and vapor such that you are neither airy - nor overly rich with vapor so as to make the vapor hot, or wet and unpleasant.

Hopefully that makes some sense. Among the many variables we deal with, air is a rather simple one to control. Now off to try to tension twisted 24ga....
 

Cucco

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Mox,

The kfl is a beast for flavor but the wicking with rayon is touchy. I'll look and see if I still have a pic of the freshly wicked deck for you

KFL and rayon... It was my experience... I have found Rayon to be a better wicking material in some atomizers. However I have found KFL to be a better material for my KFLs. I have found with KFL, 'less is better'. And with Rayon, 'more is better'.

But, that was just my experience. :)
 

MacTechVpr

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KFL and rayon... It was my experience... I have found Rayon to be a better wicking material in some atomizers. However I have found KFL to be a better material for my KFLs. I have found with KFL, 'less is better'. And with Rayon, 'more is better'.

But, that was just my experience. :)

I likes more all the time.

:D

Good luck.
 

MacTechVpr

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Forgive me if this all has been said, I'm 17 pages behind lol

Mac, I think a point you made is right on point regarding the optimization for the build to the device.

Performance is determined by many factors and they all have a very delicate relationship to one another; just as the balance of tension has on a coil.

In the most general terms of performance, we want to be vaporizing our juice as quickly and thoroughly as possible and not boiling or cooking it. That means that we must have quick ramp up time and an equally quick cool down time to prevent gunking (it's own set of variables) with respect to battery life.

But the one thing I specifically want to comment about is matching the build to the device with regard to heat and vapor management.

Take for example, a recent build in my Doge... not my best and ready to be replaced but worth noting anyhow.

Now, this is a rather abused coil, but i wanted to point out the coverage of the air holes by the coils and their proximity to them. It's been said before but, if you locate your coils as near to your airflow and maximize the coverage you control the heat much better and help your vapor production without making a monster sub ohm build.

The key here relies on a few things, the location of the coils to allow for fresh air to cool the coils after a pull and during a pull to allow the ratio of air and vapor such that you are neither airy - nor overly rich with vapor so as to make the vapor hot, or wet and unpleasant.

Hopefully that makes some sense. Among the many variables we deal with, air is a rather simple one to control. Now off to try to tension twisted 24ga....

You know that's a good point. Don't have to tell you.

Matching the build to the device don't mean I thing if you ain't got the flow. My big struggle with tryin' to get a Protank system down for those startin' out is just how damned stingy Kanger was from the git on air supply. What good doin' a righteous harmonious kickayss in there if not enough air but to just cook the thing. What helped after that oversight on my part and why I kept stressing Nextel. I believed and still do that it's far more efficient in flow and phase transition than anything else. Aspire seems to think so as well recently. And I'm certain at the end of the day virtually all producers will go there.

Also true that, on cooling coils during and after draw. It does help a bit to detain build up. I just can't get in the rhythm of it…being so darn eager to exhale. And hopeless when I'm chaining. Just as long as we all remember that the cooling you're talking about is vaporization (phase transition at the evaporation point). So you're right drag until it's done! LOL

That said, if you build for the best vapor density you can use after draw for volume diffusion (or drip tip, high air position, etc.). IOW, a hot build doesn't max the potential of the gear. And that is the gospel I'm spreading.

So I guess I need to bone up on my pull, huh? That's what you're tellin' me. What a pal.

:D

Good luck E.
 

etherealink

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You know that's a good point. Don't have to tell you.

Matching the build to the device don't mean I thing if you ain't got the flow. My big struggle with tryin' to get a Protank system down for those startin' out is just how damned stingy Kanger was from the git on air supply. What good doin' a righteous harmonious kickayss in there if not enough air but to just cook the thing. What helped after that oversight on my part and why I kept stressing Nextel. I believed and still do that it's far more efficient in flow and phase transition than anything else. Aspire seems to think so as well recently. And I'm certain at the end of the day virtually all producers will go there.

Also true that, on cooling coils during and after draw. It does help a bit to detain build up. I just can't get in the rhythm of it…being so darn eager to exhale. And hopeless when I'm chaining. Just as long as we all remember that the cooling you're talking about is vaporization (phase transition at the evaporation point). So you're right drag until it's done! LOL

That said, if you build for the best vapor density you can use after draw for volume diffusion (or drip tip, high air position, etc.). IOW, a hot build doesn't max the potential of the gear. And that is the gospel I'm spreading.

So I guess I need to bone up on my pull, huh? That's what you're tellin' me. What a pal.

:D

Good luck E.
Well Mac, basically what I'm getting at by matching the build for the device s that even a small rda (igo-w) can chuck solid density if given the right build with respect to vapor-air ratio.

By the same token, you can make the firing over-rich with vapor and make it nearly impossible to vape (even for a super subohm vaper that likes to be around .1Ω).

Its balance that makes the most consistent performance, just as its balance that makes the best t.m.c.'s
 

MacTechVpr

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I have found, (and put to use), that keeping a draw going after releasing the fire button helped with gunking tremendously. It is almost second nature now. I don't even think about it anymore... It really helps with cooling the coils down faster.

Well Mac, basically what I'm getting at by matching the build for the device s that even a small rda (igo-w) can chuck solid density if given the right build with respect to vapor-air ratio.

By the same token, you can make the firing over-rich with vapor and make it nearly impossible to vape (even for a super subohm vaper that likes to be around .1Ω).

Its balance that makes the most consistent performance, just as its balance that makes the best t.m.c.'s

Fella's I'm widja. The hardest hitting, vapor packin' little 6-parallel twisted lead on an Igo/s.s.Fauxgatti ridin' a steam monkey brass 490 like this one with the 454…


375825d1403061126-micro-coils-increase-vapor-flavor-th-img_0879a.jpg



This little thing has huge /mm contact for the power, chucks unbelievable vapor instantly and cools down just as fast. And amazingly with a 16th for air, dazzling flavor on all…NexT, KGD and rayon.

Who would'a thunk it?

:D

Good luck.
 

Cucco

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KFL and rayon... It was my experience... I have found Rayon to be a better wicking material in some atomizers. However I have found KFL to be a better material for my KFLs. I have found with KFL, 'less is better'. And with Rayon, 'more is better'.

But, that was just my experience. :)

Oops! I meant to type "KGD and rayon". AND "I have found KGD to be a better material for my KFLs.". AND "I have found with KGD, 'less is better'." :)

Oh my. Maybe, I should take a nap. :)
 
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etherealink

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Yep, parallels t.m.c.'s are def possible and.benefit from better coherence in oxidation. As we know, it's harder to get there consistently with multi-wire. It's a tough build to balance dual-coil. Certainly more than twained wire. But tensioned parallels share the weakness with lead instability as conventional coils. Lose symmetry or contact and you're going do have one funky undesirable vape.

Aug 22 I posted an idea that may have spawned before. Went on the internet numerous times to try and find an example but couldn't. Mostly 'cause I didn't want to waste my time if it was going to be as erratic as straight wind. Not finding one searching forums from my world list, I came upon this idea…twain the leads. If twisting the leads stabilized electron flow for this build…


384643d1414382506-micro-coils-increase-vapor-flavor-th-img_1191a.jpg



What would twisting the leads on a tensioned parallel wind do??? Well I can't show you a new build today. I've been too busy vaping them ever since and it's become my most productive wind to date. Vaping three tonight. But I can show you the long term test I posted on VU Aug 22…


406283d1422071152-tensioned-micro-coils-next-step-img_1102a.jpg



And equally as surprising these coils are every bit as stable as the single twisted center post leads like the above. I find that parallels are on the drier side of conventionals and twisted pair on the more moist cooler side. But it's a peculiar amalgam with these critters. Both these winds are a notch above a conventional t.m.c. in both flavor and vapor volume suggestive of the greater stability of symmetry the leads provide.

They're not exactly easy builds. Multi-wire isn't. But if you have the curiosity to try I would strongly recommend it. You wanna talk about a fast firing, vapor chuckin', extremely flavorful and powerful little coil then build yourself some of these. They are the target of my research right now for slightly higher res box mod builds on mono-blocks like my favorite Raiju.

Well maybe your next question might be… how do they hold up? Tell ya what, I'll take a picture of that Aug 22 build and get back at ya.

Meantime, good luck.

:)

p.s. Anyone know of anyone building twisted lead parallels of any kind prior to above, please let me know. I'd prefer to acknowledge them, if so.
Twisted lead parallels? Only me that I know of Bro
 
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