Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[MacTechVpr]

Originally posted on the thread Prebending Coil Leads.......Whats The Easiest Way??

Hey buddy, nice to see ya.

Quick question. Is it easier to take a 90 degree turn in a car or a long fast sweeper?

pause

Why are the physics for electrons any different?

Just sayin'.

That said, magnetic fine tipped tweezers (ceramic too) are extremely useful for everything from helping to thread wicking, picking up small items like screws or fine tuning turns and leads. They will put an instant and perfect angled bend in almost any gauge wire.

I find the most useful tool for creating bends is one that promotes or reinforces symmetry between the leads. That I think goes further to enhance performance than just about anything we do. Well, except building a perfect coil for starters. The face of the shank of an instrument screw driver or pin vise held against an end turn will allow you put strain on a lead and induce a gradual bend, in lieu of a kink. A bend that can be duplicated on the other side. The shaft of a screw driver or drill blank can also be used to induce turn on a predetermined radius based on its diameter. These approaches help us match the lead geometry precisely.

Good luck.

 

[Alamedean]

Dear MacTechVpr,

I have been following you for the past year + on ECF. It is now time for you to show yourself on a video. I admit I can't follow technically on everything you write about and nor do I need to experiment as much as you do with TMC. However, I believe you have a unique contribution to the world of vaping. I would and I think many of us here on ECF would enjoy getting to meet the man behind the avatar.

Show thy self and be recognized as a major contributor to ECF!

I ask for a vote to induct MacTechVpr into the Hall of Vapers on ECF!!!

All in favor?

Aye

Please post your video here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/reos-mods/633509-our-reosmods-vaping-shooting-breeze-video-page.html

 

[geekmedic]

Dear MacTechVpr,

I have been following you for the past year + on ECF. It is now time for you to show yourself on a video. I admit I can't follow technically on everything you write about and nor do I need to experiment as much as you do with TMC. However, I believe you have a unique contribution to the world of vaping. I would and I think many of us here on ECF would enjoy getting to meet the man behind the avatar.

Show thy self and be recognized as a major contributor to ECF!

I ask for a vote to induct MacTechVpr into the Hall of Vapers on ECF!!!

All in favor?

Aye

Please post your video here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/reos-mods/633509-our-reosmods-vaping-shooting-breeze-video-page.html

AYE! I want to see the person in action

 

[super_X_drifter]

Dear MacTechVpr,

I have been following you for the past year + on ECF. It is now time for you to show yourself on a video. I admit I can't follow technically on everything you write about and nor do I need to experiment as much as you do with TMC. However, I believe you have a unique contribution to the world of vaping. I would and I think many of us here on ECF would enjoy getting to meet the man behind the avatar.

Show thy self and be recognized as a major contributor to ECF!

I ask for a vote to induct MacTechVpr into the Hall of Vapers on ECF!!!

All in favor?

Aye

Please post your video here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/reos-mods/633509-our-reosmods-vaping-shooting-breeze-video-page.html

I've had several phone conversations with Mac. He's one engaging and easy to talk to guy. A STS vid would be great. Good idea

 

[super_X_drifter]

AYE! I want to see the person in action

Trust me, if I can do it anyone can
Here's my latest . It's LONG

http://youtu.be/08iO0G_xS7k

 

[MacTechVpr]

Trust me, if I can do it anyone can
Here's my latest . It's LONG

http://youtu.be/08iO0G_xS7k

So you started on vapegrl too!!! Which one? There were so many! LOL

Your video editing's getting seriously good Russ. And you've gotten so damned comfortable in front of the camera. Almost feels like I know you forever and you just stopped in for some pie after dinner. That's real man.

Now if we could get Loki to build you another BF dripper we could try to expand into tensioned parallels!

 

[MacTechVpr]

Dear MacTechVpr,

I have been following you for the past year + on ECF. It is now time for you to show yourself on a video. I admit I can't follow technically on everything you write about and nor do I need to experiment as much as you do with TMC. However, I believe you have a unique contribution to the world of vaping. I would and I think many of us here on ECF would enjoy getting to meet the man behind the avatar.

Show thy self and be recognized as a major contributor to ECF!

I ask for a vote to induct MacTechVpr into the Hall of Vapers on ECF!!!

All in favor?

Aye

Please post your video here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/reos-mods/633509-our-reosmods-vaping-shooting-breeze-video-page.html

AYE! I want to see the person in action

Thanks Al, geek. Hey, workin' on that. Some things just have to be seen to be believed! LOL

And thanks for the nod guys. Just know a lot of effort goes into what supe's doin' and for me too. Heck of a lot of prep, proto and research…short version…messin' up to get it right. I know how thorough Russ is before he even hints at a thing. And it's appreciated as I know you guys do as well.

Main thing I'm after is getting folks rebuilding, ASAP and in the most direct, effective way possible. As our numbers grow our success and unanimity as a community will overwhelm any tide of misinformation against us.

Looking forward to the day we have a Vape-a-thon on the FDA's front lawn.

I'd love to see a thousand MTV's out there doin' video's showon' how to simply t.m.c. pointing to the PTMicro and this thread for the background. Ten thousand tensioned micro youtube stars winding perfect 1Ω's in 10 sec's.

So I guess if I'm gonna have to wind the dang thing in front of ya'll to make that happen, you got it.



Good luck all.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Well hell's bells ownin' up here thanks to a nudge from a friend, I earlier posted an answer to another thread and gotta admit, it don't matter. I wrote...

Originally posted on the thread Prebending Coil Leads.......Whats The Easiest Way??

...Quick question. Is it easier to take a 90 degree turn in a car or a long fast sweeper?

pause

Why are the physics for electrons any different?

Just sayin'.

Seems as a computer network specialist dealing with high frequency data transmission I had it beat into me to avoid wire kinks. Truth is that with the low d/c voltages we're dealing with the physics are different (typical) and the effects of bends are so miniscule they're irrelevant.

Found this excellent discussion which covers most of the technical issues. Don't believe me, read it yourself. LOL

Point being, we bend! Still being ever careful to protect basic wind symmetry, i.e. lead length, turn congruity, etc.) with those adjustments as that will affect resistance and performance.

I found the reddit post Do right angles in circuit designs increase resistance, even slightly? : ask science quite instructive.

This is correct answer. that a physicist (in fact, David Griffiths) gives: The question you're asking is essentially "Is the current the same all the way around the loop, at any given moment?"
If the current is not the same all the way around, then charge is piling up somewhere (in this case, at the 90-degree bend in the wire). The electric field of this accumulating charge is in such a direction as to even out the flow. The field opposes the current flowing in and promotes the current flowing out until these currents are equal. Basically, there are two forces driving current around a circuit. There is the EMF (battery) and then the so-called electrostatic force, which serves to smooth out the flow and communicate the influence of the source to distant parts of the circuit.
The current is smoothed out so quickly that the resistance the bend causes is not noticeable. This is kind of the same reason that a light bulb turns on as soon as we flip the switch. The EMF somehow communicates "instantaneously" with the far ends of the circuit.
It's not intuitive, really. Not much about E&M is.
EDIT: Quoted from Griffiths Electrodynamics p.292

The only caveat of concern might be making those adjustments after oxidation (pulsing) as to what effect that might have on insulation and so resistance.

I gotta say despite this that I intuitively feel inclined to avoid any further forming of wire, as little as possible, particularly a strained t.m.c., beyond that section of the element intended to do the work. That the best path is the most direct path. But I gotta give the nod to the physicist here.

Good luck all.

 

[MacTechVpr]

With a little help from MacTechVpr and Cigatron....I came up with a jig to make some coils and it worked GREAT !!
2.4mm brazing rod and a block of wood... 28ga @ 9 wraps should be approx. 1.5ohm counting legs.
Thanks guys, now to try one out

I think that's a great start on your hand made jig. Can't see how you secured the starting lead as that pic won't expand. But good job.

The main thing we want to shoot for is "sticky", or adhesion. A true microcoil will oxidize as a unit much better than anything short of that. Lot of folks winding on a lot of things here on ECF without any idea what the goal is. A tensioned microcoil wants to be a coil. In a t.m.c. you've infused enough energy through the strain for the wire to continue to pull in on itself once that pressure on the wire is relaxed. If you don't get to that particular point of stretching the wire you may impart form; that is; you merely added enough energy to the wire for it to hold its shape. Although if not enough to get the wire as close together as the two surfaces may be forced, it will not be enough to keep them pulling in on each other. In other words, more than enough to get 'em holdin' hands but not shoulder to shoulder. So not quite a truly functional microcoil but a close contact coil. What we would have called a short before the microcoil.



That's the ticket SW. If we get that basic idea we can make a t.m.c. with any instrument that helps us apply strain. Some I've seen being sold won't. Others won't let you do it consistently. Either of those will leave the potential for hotspots or irregular distribution of heat across the wire and/or leads. All things that mess up the vape, waste energy, juice and a good time. They may look pretty but might as well hand wind it 'cause the results could be just as bad and maybe even worse if too much strain was applied at just the wrong places. Then your vape may end up tasting hot, dry and nasty like a loose connection.

Symmetry is all about equality. And that means a consistent vape.

Good luck all. Just hail me by PM anytime if you need some input or answers or on the Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step. or Protank MicroCoil Discussion!! threads. I'll be trackin' here on Subtank attributes, bugs and developments.

Good luck all.



p.s. Don't forget to de-wind the first couple'a three turns. They're usually not up to the same even strain as the rest.

 

[Katya]

Dear MacTechVpr,

I have been following you for the past year + on ECF. It is now time for you to show yourself on a video. I admit I can't follow technically on everything you write about and nor do I need to experiment as much as you do with TMC. However, I believe you have a unique contribution to the world of vaping. I would and I think many of us here on ECF would enjoy getting to meet the man behind the avatar.

Show thy self and be recognized as a major contributor to ECF!

I ask for a vote to induct MacTechVpr into the Hall of Vapers on ECF!!!

All in favor?

Aye

Please post your video here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/reos-mods/633509-our-reosmods-vaping-shooting-breeze-video-page.html

Aye!

I want to see that pin vise in action.

As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[Katya]

Thanks Al, geek. Hey, workin' on that. Some things just have to be seen to be believed! LOL

'Bout time, Mac.

And thanks in advance. Can't wait!

 

[WickedWicks]

I got some more noob questions:

Assuming we're dealing with a perfectly wound tmc,

• does the oxide layer created by annealing completely seal off the coils?
• does it stay sealed when heated up?

If so, wouldn't that possibly cause some implications, that

• the vapor has to escape through the ends of the coil, not allowing any rewicking while firing!?
• the juice in the center of the coil has no oxigen to react with!? Side effect?

 

[MacTechVpr]

I got some more noob questions:

Assuming we're dealing with a perfectly wound tmc,

• does the oxide layer created by annealing completely seal off the coils?
• does it stay sealed when heated up?

If so, wouldn't that possibly cause some implications, that

• the vapor has to escape through the ends of the coil, not allowing any rewicking while firing!?
• the juice in the center of the coil has no oxigen to react with!? Side effect?

Having observed a great many of these in operation I can confidently say it's never going to be a pipe.

First I strongly recommend making/using t.m.c.'s as it's the best way to ensure optimum end-to-end uniformity of oxidation. Forcing the coils together by compression, a coiler or any instrument unevenly applying tension will leave gaps. This will result in zones throughout the wire that will vary in temperature. Some considerably higher as a result of the uneven insulation and this will affect your resistance causing a hotter drier vape than the given wire length should ideally yield. How much of a difference? From my own informal survey of users, pro rebuilders and other testers a cooler response of between about 25-50%. That equates roughly to a comparable improvement in efficiency or in other words more effective transfer of heat to wick and juice.

To answer your question directly, there are small variations in all wire and so it's not possible given the tolerances to achieve a perfect contact between the surfaces. The best we can do is optimize that contact. If we could, we then would see a resistance in theory equivalent to the mass resistance of the wire. We can also wind overly tight to ensure contact however that may have the effect too of unduly heating wick, wire and the resulting vapor output. So the answer is no pipe. There are always minute fissures through which vapor escapes from the wick as well as the open ends of the wind. If the coil is extremely uniform the internal pressures often result in minute separations in operation as the insulation layers are only nanometers thick and vapor also escapes in this manner. It doesn't take much energy to overcome the force pulling turns together.

If there were no exit and entry airflow there would be no vaporization internally so that none of the vapor you're referring to would be observed. In the same manner as there is an effusion of vapor there is both convection of the juice towards the outer coil surfaces and also airflow from without. Otherwise vaporization would cease or be substantially constrained.

And contrary to some assertions made throughout this forum t.m.c.'s are not unduly hot at the center. Quite the contrary, heat is evenly distributed. And that would be the means to determine if a contact coil was wound with strain…that it exhibit thermal uniformity, as open winds conversely do heat from center even when wound under strain…

It is t.mc.'s that characteristically do not when evenly wound. It is strain that equalizes the resistance across the element as evident by the temperature result in this example…

So you have micro-fissures in any t.m.c., many. And vapor like water will find the path of least resistance to exit. But you bring up an important point in that there is an considerable internal pressure build up in a t.m.c. and this drops vaporization temperatures for both PG and VG. This I'm thoroughly convinced helps to account for the impressive efficiency gains of a tension micro coil (the consequence of uniform and concentrated heat application).

So the very purpose for the t.m.c. is to close those gaps. The more uniform the wind the better the oxidation and uniformity of heat delivery across the wire. The added benefit is one of increased pressure internally which in my opinion contributes substantially to the performance of these winds.

Good luck wicked. Give us a nudge if you need a hand.

 

[super_X_drifter]

Mac, that there ^ is a great, detailed summary bro. Nice work.

 

[WickedWicks]

Mac, that there ^ is a great, detailed summary bro. Nice work.

This! Much appreciated Mac!

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Glad I found this new thread...

 

[super_X_drifter]

Glad I found this new thread...

We're glad your here man

 

[sedge]

Me too. I was lost.

 

[BlkWolfMidnight]

Howdy,

I've been doing "Tensioned coils" for ages now, my discovery came out of necessity of saving money and not wasting any wire. As for the micro coil debate that one goes a long, long way down the rabbit hole. Typically speaking vapor will find the pathway of least resistance however if in a sealed tube then the only pathway is out the end. This tends to cause an issue with superheating the vapor which then affects the flavoring of your juice on sometimes a drastic level.

The wicking acts like a cork more then anything, though yes usually allows pathway for air to travel it does not properly allow breathing of the atomized liquid, the coil system is like a pipe, a solid pipe will not allow water to flow out as fast as a pipe with holes in it which is why micro spaced coils are efficient as long as the inductive heating zones overlap. Besides the physical coil heating up there is also inductive heating that is generated through the production if Inferred heating. If properly spaced then these zones will maintain the same heat as your coils thus increasing your surface area but with the added benefit that the coils will cool faster as you have flow though design for the air channels (less burnt wicking material). If you look at it from a scientific stand point a burner on a stove is not a solid plate for reasons of efficiency and increase in amperage requirements to heat a large plate rather then a spaced wire (it also allows for cooling and heating faster).

I've been studying the science behind a coil for a while now, a few really interesting discoveries have been made thus far that contradict the micro coil idea, I personally tested them and found the results really enjoyable in truth. I can see where a micro coil could be useful as in a cartomizer type set up with the wicking on the outside and airflow through the center, this would maximize the contact surface area and the coil would then be allowed to use the full potential of atomization at that point with nothing to block the channel, the coil would be allowed to breath as well.

These are just my thoughts.

 

[e30ernest]

Aha new thread. Subscribing.