Hey no worries man- We're all just learnign about htis products- There is certainly reason to be cautious for folks that are concerned abotu health- you didn't overreact- I understand the alarm it raised. Thanks for the research- these are important issues that we need to keep on top of
Vegetable glycerine (glycerol) - safety discussion
- Thread starter Mihai
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
True, but the glycerol formula is the same no matter how is obtained and it breaks down to the same stuff. Even more, as you say, those impurities can do bad things to your health and to your atomizer.
The reason natural stuff is preferable is because the extraction process doesn't usually involve other chemicals which can leave hazardous traces in the final product.
That's not vegetable oil thats PG or VG from the vapors, both of them being oily.
The bottom line is, if you MUST have a Visible "smoke" you will need a solid. Somthing with a low flash point, or OIL of some kind, to actually Make the smoke. Thats where the health risks come into play.
IF these were used as Just a Nico delivery system, it would "Almost" be risk free.
If there was a way to just vaporize it with out heat, that would help too. (any electronic engineers out there? hehe, im more mechanical)
Also, if the e-cigs are acting like a fog machine, and if those are approved (at least here in the states) by the food and drug administration, wouldnt these be approved as well? By proxy, as long as the mixes were close to the same ratios?
IF these were used as Just a Nico delivery system, it would "Almost" be risk free.
If there was a way to just vaporize it with out heat, that would help too. (any electronic engineers out there? hehe, im more mechanical)
Also, if the e-cigs are acting like a fog machine, and if those are approved (at least here in the states) by the food and drug administration, wouldnt these be approved as well? By proxy, as long as the mixes were close to the same ratios?
Wouldn't it be best, if a mod could port the post you just made into your first post? So readers see immediately that first alarm was followed by second thoughts and recalculation? (Edit: done while I was typing...)
Then another remark on the subject itself: it may be that the wire in the e-device gets to a certain temperature... but that doesn't mean the e-liquid gets to the same temperature! e-liquid seems to allready turn into vapour (then leaving the hot surroundings because going upward...) at as low as 60C. I think I read that in some Janty-text (not sure though where it was). Anyhow, 60C is a real far way off 280... and even if I can't retrace this text... the principle still counts: wire at certain temp does not mean liquid gets to that temp too... it's long gone away from the surroundings of the wire, as vapour, before that... and even the surroundings of the wire where evaporation takes place still aren't 'just as hot' as the wire itself...
Then another remark on the subject itself: it may be that the wire in the e-device gets to a certain temperature... but that doesn't mean the e-liquid gets to the same temperature! e-liquid seems to allready turn into vapour (then leaving the hot surroundings because going upward...) at as low as 60C. I think I read that in some Janty-text (not sure though where it was). Anyhow, 60C is a real far way off 280... and even if I can't retrace this text... the principle still counts: wire at certain temp does not mean liquid gets to that temp too... it's long gone away from the surroundings of the wire, as vapour, before that... and even the surroundings of the wire where evaporation takes place still aren't 'just as hot' as the wire itself...
I've been vaping alcohol based flavouring neat for a few hours now. It does indeed produce vapour, the vapour is visible on exhaling too although a bit less than with propylene glycol or veg glycerine. One thing I noticed was my atomiser burning hotter with the alcohol, this might not be good for it. I don't have any neat pg so can't test how well pg and alcohol do when mixed but I'd say that if you decide you can't use vg then alcohol would probably be a good replacement.
We posted at the same time, you make a good point Katink.
If it was coming out that hot, wouldnt you burn the heck out of your mouth, lips, or what ever?
It is the temp of the smoke point, and not the element you need to figure out, to use all this information on the amount of transformation.
If it was coming out that hot, wouldnt you burn the heck out of your mouth, lips, or what ever?
It is the temp of the smoke point, and not the element you need to figure out, to use all this information on the amount of transformation.
Where is the Edit button?
Thats Good Kate.
I was going by what I was told, but you confirmed what i said about the temp going up.
Me - "it has a lower flash point, and may over heat the elements, leading to shorter life spans for your atomizers."
Kate - "One thing I noticed was my atomiser burning hotter with the alcohol, this might not be good for it."
Thats Good Kate.
I was going by what I was told, but you confirmed what i said about the temp going up.
Me - "it has a lower flash point, and may over heat the elements, leading to shorter life spans for your atomizers."
Kate - "One thing I noticed was my atomiser burning hotter with the alcohol, this might not be good for it."
Temperatures measured with type j 0.2mm twisted pair thermocouple:
146C(7.8mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 170C in core (less than 2mm to coil), no cartridge
103C(5.4mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 127C under steel wool
27C(1.4mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 53C in cartridge near steel wool
I added 26C ambient temperature compensation afterwards!
As the wire conducts heat, actual temperatures will be higher. How much, I don't
know. What I can say is that actual temperatures can't be less than those stated.
Atomizer coil resistance is 3.2 ohms. Li-ion cell is rated 3.7 volts(4.15v max.
measured). Cig itself is dx/sku.14562 .
146C(7.8mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 170C in core (less than 2mm to coil), no cartridge
103C(5.4mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 127C under steel wool
27C(1.4mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 53C in cartridge near steel wool
I added 26C ambient temperature compensation afterwards!
As the wire conducts heat, actual temperatures will be higher. How much, I don't
know. What I can say is that actual temperatures can't be less than those stated.
Atomizer coil resistance is 3.2 ohms. Li-ion cell is rated 3.7 volts(4.15v max.
measured). Cig itself is dx/sku.14562 .
Well, theoritically..it(VG) can convert to acrolein if superheated to a PERSISTANT and a CONSTANT heat of 280c....but not in the case of e-cig unless you can continue pressing on the button in manual switch(like Janty)..in auto mode the core temp depends on how long we inhale...so it won't be a problem ...So VG to acrolein will be a no issue in short burst of usage in e-cig until someone comes out with a constant and persistant power delivery to superheat the atomiser...
BTW, most atomiser will cool down rapidly after each suction,...most will drop below 40c within 1 to 2 seconds upon stoppage...I am sure the cyclical changes of chemical reaction of VG will be interrupted due to this rapid drop as well as inconsistent heat..so ...I won't be worried.... cheers folk...
Are there any official laboratory test results for this issue? Maybe suppliers could post these results?
Thanks doc - I have some VG Johnson's coming, and I'll vape it without worry now.
Emp
Emp
Not sure what kind of guinea pig I am, but I've been vaping vegetable glycerine for almost two months, without any lung irritation or other symptoms. I read about it before I began, and a book called "Glycerine" on Google put my mind at ease. Warning: Heavy read.
I like VG better than PG, because it tastes so sweet, but am now rethinking on the basis that PG might have major germ-killing potential. If that is true, I'll be back on PG beginning with the fall flu season.
I like VG better than PG, because it tastes so sweet, but am now rethinking on the basis that PG might have major germ-killing potential. If that is true, I'll be back on PG beginning with the fall flu season.
Billster posted this test report link on the propylene glycol thread - http://www.supersmokerjp.com/images/ToxicologylaboratoryTestResultsEnglishtranslatiion.pdf It's a lab analysis of the safety of Supersmoker devices and eliquid. I thought I'd post it here too because it seems to vindicate glycerine use in vapour.
From what I can tell, this is what it has to say about the glycerine in the vapour they tested:
"1,2,3-propane triol [glycerol]: assumed to be a very slightly toxic substance, mainly because it is not a xenobiotic (in the conversion from fat to energy glycerine is released in the circulation and finally converted to glucose). ...
... so-called heterocyclic amines can be formed at high temperatures ...
Different heterocyclic amines are highly mutagenic and are considered to be procarcinogenic. For the formation of this type of substance we would mention the presence of tryptophane and glutaminic acid, among other things, in addition to a reducing sugar such as glucose or lactose, among other things. ...
... tryptophane and glutaminic acid are not present in the formulation ...
... there are no scientific reasons for assuming the presence or formation of heterocyclic amines. Moreover, it may be added that the short-term temperature at which evaporation takes place in the products of SUPER SMOKERS, namely approx. 100 to 130°C, is much lower than in the case of pyrolysis in a classic cigarette (where temperatures of several hundred degrees Celsius are reached), so that here there are no elements leading to the assumption of heterocyclic amines."
If I'm not mistaken that shows that Supersmoker's use of glycerine is safe. Hopefully the same will be found for other eliquids when they are tested. It would be good to have results from other labs and about other eliquids.
From what I can tell, this is what it has to say about the glycerine in the vapour they tested:
"1,2,3-propane triol [glycerol]: assumed to be a very slightly toxic substance, mainly because it is not a xenobiotic (in the conversion from fat to energy glycerine is released in the circulation and finally converted to glucose). ...
... so-called heterocyclic amines can be formed at high temperatures ...
Different heterocyclic amines are highly mutagenic and are considered to be procarcinogenic. For the formation of this type of substance we would mention the presence of tryptophane and glutaminic acid, among other things, in addition to a reducing sugar such as glucose or lactose, among other things. ...
... tryptophane and glutaminic acid are not present in the formulation ...
... there are no scientific reasons for assuming the presence or formation of heterocyclic amines. Moreover, it may be added that the short-term temperature at which evaporation takes place in the products of SUPER SMOKERS, namely approx. 100 to 130°C, is much lower than in the case of pyrolysis in a classic cigarette (where temperatures of several hundred degrees Celsius are reached), so that here there are no elements leading to the assumption of heterocyclic amines."
If I'm not mistaken that shows that Supersmoker's use of glycerine is safe. Hopefully the same will be found for other eliquids when they are tested. It would be good to have results from other labs and about other eliquids.
Kate, add your discovered material to Dr. Loi's comment and I swear I will not spend one second worrying about vaping vegetable glycerine. I feel it's safer than driving my car!
To be honest TBob I was never really truly worried about it for my own health, I'm convinced that it's better than smoke from cigs and that's my alternative. I am, however, concerned that we be able to prove to authorities that our habit is safe. It would be awful for us all if it was made legally unacceptable because of some petty bureaucratic prejudices against inhaling 'smoke', nicotine, glycerine or whatever.
The more reports, tests, ingredient lists and trials we have under our belts before legal intervention the better. Lets hope we can encourage our suppliers also to share privately funded research with us for the greater good.
That report is a good find, I can't take any credit for finding it, it was another member of the forum who posted it. I just spread it around. It definitely backs up what Dr Loi was saying about glycerine. Nothing to worry about.
The more reports, tests, ingredient lists and trials we have under our belts before legal intervention the better. Lets hope we can encourage our suppliers also to share privately funded research with us for the greater good.
That report is a good find, I can't take any credit for finding it, it was another member of the forum who posted it. I just spread it around. It definitely backs up what Dr Loi was saying about glycerine. Nothing to worry about.
This is, in my opinion, the most unfortunate thread posted on this entire forum.
- Status
