FDA 8/8/14 Comment/Letter to FDA by 29 state attorneys general

[Kent C]

I just took a quick look and I'm unable to find any favorable analysis of this letter in the media. Lots of regurgitation but nothing approaching a rebuttal of any sort. If you found this, please post the link.

I also looked and found nothing. It might be 'too new' or, less of a probability, the tide is turning As I mentioned elsewhere, I do think the 'tide is turning' since the poison scare but not to the complete positive.

 

[zoiDman]

You welcome When I started this thread it was my hope and desire to learn from each other about the various sections of the letter, share experiences in how we took action with respect to this letter, and of course read about additional activism that would result in direct response to this letter. Frankly and respectfully, this "fight" can get a little lonely so I need real stories of how others took action to keep my spirits up.

When "we" venture to far off the beaten path so to speak is when I tap out and request that the thread be locked, which goes to the point classwife made and a few others. On the other hand, please start your own thread in Outside and I will be more than happy to debate the "politics" of the FDA going back 15 or 20 years.

Returning to the topic: I just took a quick look and I'm unable to find any favorable analysis of this letter in the media. Lots of regurgitation but nothing approaching a rebuttal of any sort. If you found this, please post the link.

I don't Blame you at all

If Members would like to have Partisan "Debates" about the Goods or Evils of our Political System, the OUTSIDE section of the ECF will welcome a person with Open Arms.

When these Threads become More about Party Bashing, and Less about e-Cigarettes / e-Liquids, I'd rather see them Closed Also.

 

[Racehorse]

can soldier on with anyone who supports a cause I care about.

All the real hippies are geriatric now, using walkers, so people don't even know what a Hippie is. They don't know or read history don't know about all the voting, protesting, boycotting, more individuality, less uniformity, civil rights for women and african americans, the back to the land movement, food health, getting rid of nixon, fighting against corporate cronyism and imperialism, against the government being used to sponsor and support the very worst corporations......

Unfortunately, it's all been *re-packaged and sold* by the Franchise Nation and corporations have turned it into media branding. I get a kick out of watching the 2 generations after me dressing like we did (at steep prices), doing yoga (trademark), buying expensive Harley Davidsons, to go with their store-bought granola and yogurt. Many seem too busy talking on their Smart Phones to bother to see how that has happened. Now, wearing vegan shoes (Tom's) and going to a 3 day outdoor rock concert is being part of a revolution.

The truly sad part is that the original Hippies, and many of the true Libertarians of today, are not far apart on many issues.
It's just that they have been taught to *hate* each other, compliments of a lot of dis-education, so a lot of what they have in common has been erased...because, what better way for the *leaders* to prevent them from working together.......

And that last part is precisely WHY it's the totally wrong thing to do to make vaping into a partisan issue. Because, it's like giving the sociopaths (politicians) the keys to the kingdom. The very nut cases who are only talking out of one side of their mouth for their OWN benefit and power and votes.

Until *we the people* come together, there will be no relief. But partisan politics will make sure that never happens.

Partisan politics has no place in vaping. None. It doesn't even make sense.

 

[aubergine]

All the real hippies are geriatric now, using walkers, so people don't even know what a Hippie is.

Erm, wanna bet? Race ya to the vape shop. (I was even a Digger, see wiki. The real thing here. And a serious activist on all of those issues. And I want EVERYONE who has a stake in this issue on board and welcomed as comrade. No, that sounds Communist. As friends in the cause, period. )

 

[toddkuen]

Fascism defined....
...
"Any type of liquid solution that may be used in an e-cigarette device, regardless of whether it contains nicotine, should be classified as a component because it can be mixed with a solution that does contain nicotine."[/B]

...

Yup - includes water, air, saliva and vodka too....

 

[dragonpuff]

I agree that it is important to use some political background when discussing the FDA, but only as much as is absolutely necessary. Opinions on partisan politics, especially those that are arguably off topic, have no place here, as they can be divisive. We need to mobilize everyone here to stand up together for the right to vape - it doesn't help to bring up extreme political views that are not pertinent to the discussion at hand and some may disagree with. We can't afford to lose supporters to this cause.

United we stand, divided we fall.

 

[Kent C]

Erm, wanna bet? Race ya to the vape shop. (I was even a Digger, see wiki. The real thing here. And a serious activist on all of those issues. And I want EVERYONE who has a stake in this issue on board and welcomed as comrade. No, that sounds Communist. As friends in the cause, period. )

Yet another instance of what I mentioned in #80. Ignored, yet the next post wasn't. "Comrade" is the better fit, for some. If you didn't mean it as a tweak, you would have edited it. Interesting on the 'Digger' part though. The difference is still the same If you need that explained, just PM me.

 

[Katya]

I started a thread in CASAA forum.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/casaa/592521-request-new-call-action.html#post13877415

Please feel free to add your comments.

 

[aubergine]

Yet another instance of what I mentioned in #80. Ignored, yet the next post wasn't. "Comrade" is the better fit, for some. If you didn't mean it as a tweak, you would have edited it. Interesting on the 'Digger' part though. The difference is still the same If you need that explained, just PM me.

I was intending a mood-lightening joke at my own expense. Please just STOP.

 

[Kent C]

I was intending a mood-lightening joke at my own expense. Please just STOP.

Rrrrrright. I stop. So if I make a joke, it's ok right? sigh...

 

[M Onan Batterload]

Fascism defined....


"Thus, the FDA is not proposing definitions for components, parts, or accessories. However, we believe that the new and evolving nature of the e-cigarette requires clear and concise definitions for its components, parts, and accessories to prevent any confusion that may arise.

The component of e-cigarettes that brings them within the scope of the Proposed Rule is the liquid nicotine solution, often called e-liquid. However, there are several other portions to the e-cigarette device, i.e., battery, atomizer, and either a cartridge or tank, that are essential in the consumption or use of the tobacco product and therefore should be classified as a component and/or part even though they do not contain nicotine. Liquid nicotine cannot be consumed without each of these components working in conjunction with each other to deliver the nicotine to the consumer.

Furthermore, any item that charges the battery, such as a USB charger, should also fall within the definition of components and parts. The USB charger is typically a proprietary device that attaches directly to the battery of an e-cigarette and is inserted into a generic USB port. Although the USB charger is not used during the consumption of a tobacco product, the device must be charged in order for the tobacco product to be consumed. The FDA should settle any ambiguity between what is a component and part and what is an accessory as it is foreseeable that manufacturers may market batteries, atomizers, and tanks or cartridges as accessories in order to avoid the requirements and restrictions imposed on them once e-cigarettes are deemed a tobacco product.

We therefore propose the FDA define the term “components and parts” as follows: A component or part is anything that is used or could be used to make or use the finished product that affects the nicotine, controls the nicotine, is affected by the nicotine, can be mixed with the nicotine, is required for proper function of the device, or monitors nicotine use either for refill level or for user data to measure user habits and personal use of nicotine. The language, “make or use the finished product” would apply to both the consumer and the manufacturer. The e-cigarette user can select the device, the battery and the composition of the liquid, including the amount of nicotine and type of flavoring, and assemble the parts to create the product the user desires. As a result, each such item, whether or not it contains nicotine, should be deemed a component or part."


"Any type of liquid solution that may be used in an e-cigarette device, regardless of whether it contains nicotine, should be classified as a component because it can be mixed with a solution that does contain nicotine."

"The FDA has proposed to bring under its authority flavor enhancers for hookahs as a component or part, even though not all hookah flavor enhancers contain nicotine. The FDA should similarly exercise such authority as to flavored solutions that can be used in e-cigarettes. The need to include e-liquids, whether or not they contain nicotine..."

Crap, I think I fall within the proposed definition of an e-cigarette component or part.

 

[Kent C]

Crap, I think I fall within the proposed definition of an e-cigarette component or part.

 

[TheRac25]

Fascism defined....

Liquid nicotine cannot be consumed without each of these components working in conjunction with each other to deliver the nicotine to the consumer.

oh crap ive been bathing in e-liquid, does that mean ive been doing it wrong and not getting any nicotine?

it should be obvious now to everyone that the government thinks the people they are supposed to be representing are idiots

 

[Anjaffm]

oh crap ive been bathing in e-liquid, does that mean ive been doing it wrong and not getting any nicotine?

not at all. It merely means that the FDA will now "deem" your bathtub a tobacco product

Uhm, why am I laughing? If the FDA deems your bathtub a tobacco product, it will deem all bathtubs to be tobacco products
And we can never take a bath again - ever - without paying tobacco tax to the government
After all, we are using a "deemed" tobacco product for our bath, one that can also be used to administer nicotine
Wasn't there the mention of Hippies in this thread? Yeah, I think the Hippies had a point in not bathing. I will be joining their philosophy right after the deeming

 

[SolRayz]

Maybe coordinated at some point, but I had to utilize my pissedoffedness.

Dear Mr. Suthers,
It has come to my attention that you signed and apparently endorsed a letter
sent by 29 Attorneys General
(http://www.ag.ny.gov/pdfs/FINAL_AG_FDA_Comment_Re_Deeming_Regulations.pdf)
to the FDA regarding the upcoming deeming regulations on various "tobacco"
products. This is quite disappointing to me, for that letter is so full of
factual inaccuracies, fear mongering and downright untruths that it makes me
wonder whether you bothered to read it. I won't go over it point by point
because I'm convinced that you and so many others who we entrust with our
laws and their interpretation are merely going to hand the greatest public
health advancement we have ever made in eradicating the scourge of smoking
right back to the hands of the very scoundrels who got us here in the first
place.

In order to ever receive my vote I need you to think a little bit outside
the box, do a little real life research regarding electronic cigarettes and
discover the truth. In its present form it's saving lives. In its
regulated form you might as well kiss smoker's lives goodbye.

Respectfully,

Thank you for sending this off to Mr. Suthers. I'll be moving to CO soon, and it seems that some municipalities of CO are banning ecigs altogether without debate and without considering the consequences. Here in Florida, despite its many issues and rampant corruption, the state has generally had a very "hands off" approach when comes to cigs and ecigs. It's sad to see that a state like CO thats leading country in so many other avenues, seem to loose on this issue.

 

[aubergine]

not at all. It merely means that the FDA will now "deem" your bathtub a tobacco product

Uhm, why am I laughing? If the FDA deems your bathtub a tobacco product, it will deem all bathtubs to be tobacco products
And we can never take a bath again - ever - without paying tobacco tax to the government
After all, we are using a "deemed" tobacco product for our bath, one that can also be used to administer nicotine
Wasn't there the mention of Hippies in this thread? Yeah, I think the Hippies had a point in not bathing. I will be joining their philosophy right after the deeming

AKchally, when I was a hippie I bathed daily, my way, in whatever sparkling natural body of water I could slide my then-lovely nekkid little body into. Along with my all-natural 100% bio-degradable peppermint soap. I hereby retroactively deem every US brook, stream, river, pond, lake and both oceans tobacco products, or at least gateway products. And the soap. They harbored and interacted with my nascent intent.

By contributing to my general well-being, those bodies of water colluded in the assembly of a vaper. Render them unfit for bathing immediately!

Oh. Right. Next?

 

[bigdancehawk]

Fascism defined....


"Thus, the FDA is not proposing definitions for components, parts, or accessories. However, we believe that the new and evolving nature of the e-cigarette requires clear and concise definitions for its components, parts, and accessories to prevent any confusion that may arise.

The component of e-cigarettes that brings them within the scope of the Proposed Rule is the liquid nicotine solution, often called e-liquid. However, there are several other portions to the e-cigarette device, i.e., battery, atomizer, and either a cartridge or tank, that are essential in the consumption or use of the tobacco product and therefore should be classified as a component and/or part even though they do not contain nicotine. Liquid nicotine cannot be consumed without each of these components working in conjunction with each other to deliver the nicotine to the consumer.

Furthermore, any item that charges the battery, such as a USB charger, should also fall within the definition of components and parts. The USB charger is typically a proprietary device that attaches directly to the battery of an e-cigarette and is inserted into a generic USB port. Although the USB charger is not used during the consumption of a tobacco product, the device must be charged in order for the tobacco product to be consumed. The FDA should settle any ambiguity between what is a component and part and what is an accessory as it is foreseeable that manufacturers may market batteries, atomizers, and tanks or cartridges as accessories in order to avoid the requirements and restrictions imposed on them once e-cigarettes are deemed a tobacco product.

We therefore propose the FDA define the term “components and parts” as follows: A component or part is anything that is used or could be used to make or use the finished product that affects the nicotine, controls the nicotine, is affected by the nicotine, can be mixed with the nicotine, is required for proper function of the device, or monitors nicotine use either for refill level or for user data to measure user habits and personal use of nicotine. The language, “make or use the finished product” would apply to both the consumer and the manufacturer. The e-cigarette user can select the device, the battery and the composition of the liquid, including the amount of nicotine and type of flavoring, and assemble the parts to create the product the user desires. As a result, each such item, whether or not it contains nicotine, should be deemed a component or part."


"Any type of liquid solution that may be used in an e-cigarette device, regardless of whether it contains nicotine, should be classified as a component because it can be mixed with a solution that does contain nicotine."

"The FDA has proposed to bring under its authority flavor enhancers for hookahs as a component or part, even though not all hookah flavor enhancers contain nicotine. The FDA should similarly exercise such authority as to flavored solutions that can be used in e-cigarettes. The need to include e-liquids, whether or not they contain nicotine..."

You missed a few other absurdities, including this statement:

"Allowing any tobacco products to be manufactured, marketed, and sold in an unregulated environment creates risks to the public health and an uneven competitive environment among different categories of tobacco products" (emphasis supplied)

To the limited extent that this approaches coherency, it seems to be based on the unstated assumption that all categories of tobacco products should be subject to the identical regulations.

Another one I particularly enjoyed:

"We urge the FDA to ban all characterizing flavors other than tobacco and menthol in newly deemed tobacco products.29 The primary basis for doing so is the protection of public health, particularly of youth. However, quite apart from these health benefits, a complete prohibition of characterizing flavors offers many advantages for enforcement. Consumers and manufacturers would have clarity and certainty. Enforcers would not have to make difficult determinations about whether a word, phrase, logo, or packaging connoted a flavor. Regulators would not face years of disputes, laboratory tests, and litigation about whether, regardless of the name, labeling, and marketing, a tobacco product’s flavor does or does not appeal to youth, or is substantially equivalent, misbranded, or adulterated." (emphasis supplied)

With so many flavors to choose from, our feeble minds are hopelessly confused. I can't decide between strawberry and mocha java. We desperately need the government to remove this constant source of mental agony. However, I will concede that regulators are too stupid to figure out what words connote flavors.

Here's their hilariously ambitious list of "examples" of things they want regulated out of existence:

"Examples of components and parts would include but not be limited to e-liquid, e-juice, waxes, herbs, batteries, battery connectors, cartridges, drip tips, drip-tip adapters, atomizers, tanks, tank tubes, cartomizer, rebuildable dripping atomizer (RDA), drip cartridge tips (DCT), microprocessors, memory chips, replacement coils, tubes, caps, RSST (device that allows interchange of parts between different e-cig brands), omnidapters, atomizer tube connectors, airflow caps, tank airflow controllers, fuse, circuit boards, extensions, refilling drip tips, regulators, switches, actuators, LEDs, DIY (do-it-yourself) parts, syringes, e-juice bottles, needle slip tip syringe, needles, gauges, and USB charger." (emphasis supplied)

If I didn't know better, I'd think this was a parody piece. E.g., a slip tip syringe is a 20 cent syringe with no needle.

These people have no idea how ignorant and ridiculous this letter makes them look. What's most appalling to me is that our tax dollars are paying these people to lobby the federal government to destroy products that are saving many lives, with no evidence that the products have caused significant harm to anyone.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Twenty nine attorneys general signed the letter (just scroll the document all the way down).

And looking on the bright side--twenty one AGs didn't sign it...

23 didn't. D.C. and Guam aren't states.

 

[Kent C]

You missed a few other absurdities,

I would have had to quote the whole thing

 

[bigdancehawk]

Heh, you didn't have to my friend. They're both politicians AND lawyers, I think the liar label is simply a foregone conclusion

Several CASAA board members are lawyers. Are they dishonest? I'm a lawyer. Your comment is neither original nor funny, so I don't know what the grinning emoticon signifies. I'm acquainted with several honest politicians, including my former next door neighbor who is a decorated Marine Corps MP, a lawyer and the current mayor of Kansas City.