A Challenge to all suppliers

[Trumpybloke]

Ok I kinda have this Utopian idea floating around in my head at the moment , so I hope you all might indulge me while I try and pry it from my cerebellum???

The biggest threat to e-cigs worldwide is the actual constituents of the liquid and the possible benefits or harm they might provide... as consumers , every one of your customers, (and for everyone on this forum ), our only recourse to finding out EXACTLY what is in the liquid is to rely on the various Govt's we fall under to "protect" us.
From where I stand every supplier is making money ( or trying to lol ) and not taking seriously the fact they have a "Duty of Care " to their customers.
I don't for one minute think that every seller of liquid has their own little laboratory cranking out their own recipes, rather I am sure they ( meaning YOU dear suppliers) are either rebranding already made liquids , or blending ingredients brought in , with your own flavours etc .
If this is the case then YOU as suppliers and decanters are doubly responsible for the safety of your product and the duty of care you owe your customers.

Now to the crux of this post ... as a consumer of your products ( and yes they have YOUR name on them mostly ) I would recommend you band together to protect your livelihood and submit your base ingredients ( yes even the base nic liquids you import from China) for laboratory analysis... now individually as suppliers , that would be costly , but if ALL the major suppliers of nic liquids in the UK and USA at least tested the base formulations and shared the cost I am sure it would not be prohibitive... I am not suggesting full clinical trials but at the very least Mass Spectro analysis...
A common thread in all the forums is the constant reference to customer service and the professionality of each supplier ... I could think of no better way to demonstrate BOTH of these to your customers than to actually take some of the money we give you and at least discover accurately what you are peddling to us.
Say a mass spec costs $5,000 ( and no I dont know what it does cost) split that between 50 retailers its a grand total of $100 bucks a head !!!
Not a great deal to spend to take the first steps to protecting your business's and your customers

Now I know you will argue about " trade secrets " and recipies etc etc but i bet you you all use pretty much the same bases, if not the same liquid.... you dont have to tell us , the consumers, any secrets , just take the steps toward showing us what you sell is what you say it is .... this will not come from China, it wont come from the manufacturers unless YOU make it so , or at least do the groundwork to protect your income and your clients health

Are you up to the challenge JC?, are you up to the challenge puresmokers? Are you up to the challenge Totally Wicked?, Are you up to the challenge Intellicig?You the retailer on the web with a spare $50 in your pocket? Are any of you up for it ???

Talk amongst yourselves and then show us you care about more than the dollars you can make from us!!

 

[Trumpybloke]

Tell you what , I am a disabled pensioner, living on a fixed ( and poor ) government income and I am willing to chip in the first $50 !!! I dont sell , I dont have affiliation with product , I just KNOW this needs to be done !!!

 

[trog100]

drugs are bad for u trumpy.. best keep off em..

i might be unusual here but i see no reason for the chinese to poison us any more than they have to.. i worry about the long term effects of inhaling loads of e liquid vapour more than i do about what exactly is in it.. i assume what is in it is what the chinese say is in it.. i have no reason to assume otherwise..

but i still dont know about the long term effects of inhaling loads of the stuff on a daily basis.. i see no way of finding this out ether..

i also think the odd obsession with a million different tastes is less than desirable.. the great long list of chemicals is the taste..

trog

 

[paxes]

Your idea sounds great on paper, but where would you draw the sample from? Most resellers source their liquid from China.. right, but do they really know which lab its been made in. For this to mean anything the all suppliers would have to source from the same factory. From what ive read there are probably only about 3 labs who make the liquid but nearly all chinese suppliers claim they make it themselves.
Ive only come accross one supplier who wont sell liqiud to the uk because they have a sole supplier agreement.
To be able to keep on selling a product that people are confident in test need to be done but costs are prohibitive and only the big boys will be able to afford this.

 

[Trumpybloke]

ok so you have a choice of 3 base liquid manufacturers , choose 1 test it , then if ok then all the suppliers know which one is safe ??? if something nasty shows up are you as a retailer still going to want to sell it to your customers???...
If ONE chinese supplier proves safe.. then it surely follows the vast majority of resellers in a co-operative would flock to it and force the hand of the others?

Even typing the original post I considered I was just wasting bandwidth , because there are a million reasons not to do the testing , all of them are based around , "its too hard, its too expensive, what can I do, I only sell the stuff line "... but there is ONE compelling reason to at least try , That is to demonstrate that instead of being opportunistic entrepreneurs , you will actually stand by your product and at least attempt to prove it pure/safe rather than just sit around taking money in until your business is taken away from you by regulators???

I opened with the Utopian scenario , I expect to be dismissed and even derided because I dared to type it........but there is a slim chance it might get at least somebody to think or at best case act

And Trog its more sleep deprivation than drugs mate
By finding out whats exactly in it , theres also a chance of finding out long term effects?

 

[K-Sound Krew]

I had posted this in another thread but everyone shot it down, as a bad idea

Some one have a cop buddy turn it in as a suspicious material, get it tested for free on the taxpayers dime

Cops find suspicious materials, liquids, bags of powder, they are tested then destroyed it's a standard operating procedure, it's their job to do it

So I don't really see anything wrong with it

 

[Rockbassray]

This is part of the reason why i do not offer and or sell e-juice on my site.. Ejuice is good but still not 100% known... i dont mind buying my ejuice form elsewhere but the toll of selling seems to be more costly sometimes if customs takes it.. and if there ever is a case of an ejuice mishap.. until we get CLEAR, SIMPLE, information regarding the liquid and that is backed up from a creditable source we will have to just enjoy what we have .. after all most of us dont knwo the 4000 chemicals we were inhaling from analogs did we?

 

[Kate]

In a forum poll a while back, almost 20% of voters said their first priority with eliquid was 'proof of safety tests'.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/2951-juice-priorities.html

Pillbox had some Wicked tested for known toxins and I suspect that has increased confidence in his product and led to increased sales and recommendations.

 

[MacFan]

Ok I kinda have this Utopian idea floating around in my head at the moment , so I hope you all might indulge me while I try and pry it from my cerebellum???

The biggest threat to e-cigs worldwide is the actual constituents of the liquid and the possible benefits or harm they might provide... as consumers , every one of your customers, (and for everyone on this forum ), our only recourse to finding out EXACTLY what is in the liquid is to rely on the various Govt's we fall under to "protect" us.
From where I stand every supplier is making money ( or trying to lol ) and not taking seriously the fact they have a "Duty of Care " to their customers.
I don't for one minute think that every seller of liquid has their own little laboratory cranking out their own recipes, rather I am sure they ( meaning YOU dear suppliers) are either rebranding already made liquids , or blending ingredients brought in , with your own flavours etc .
If this is the case then YOU as suppliers and decanters are doubly responsible for the safety of your product and the duty of care you owe your customers.

Now to the crux of this post ... as a consumer of your products ( and yes they have YOUR name on them mostly ) I would recommend you band together to protect your livelihood and submit your base ingredients ( yes even the base nic liquids you import from China) for laboratory analysis... now individually as suppliers , that would be costly , but if ALL the major suppliers of nic liquids in the UK and USA at least tested the base formulations and shared the cost I am sure it would not be prohibitive... I am not suggesting full clinical trials but at the very least Mass Spectro analysis...
A common thread in all the forums is the constant reference to customer service and the professionality of each supplier ... I could think of no better way to demonstrate BOTH of these to your customers than to actually take some of the money we give you and at least discover accurately what you are peddling to us.
Say a mass spec costs $5,000 ( and no I dont know what it does cost) split that between 50 retailers its a grand total of $100 bucks a head !!!
Not a great deal to spend to take the first steps to protecting your business's and your customers

Now I know you will argue about " trade secrets " and recipies etc etc but i bet you you all use pretty much the same bases, if not the same liquid.... you dont have to tell us , the consumers, any secrets , just take the steps toward showing us what you sell is what you say it is .... this will not come from China, it wont come from the manufacturers unless YOU make it so , or at least do the groundwork to protect your income and your clients health

Are you up to the challenge JC?, are you up to the challenge puresmokers? Are you up to the challenge Totally Wicked?, Are you up to the challenge Intellicig?You the retailer on the web with a spare $50 in your pocket? Are any of you up for it ???

Talk amongst yourselves and then show us you care about more than the dollars you can make from us!!

Hi Gang! Well I have to say that we were not going to post in reply, but I do have to respond to one point made here. Also, on another level, why not? Johnson Creek has, on several occasions, made quite public our core ingredients (indeed, more than just our core ingredients) right here on this forum. We are also launching a new label next week that will also list our ingredients.
The point is, we not only have nothing to "hide", but are indeed very proud of our products, the development of our products, the ingredients in our products, and the time that goes in to making our products.
Further, we do not source ANY ingredients from overseas to make Johnson Creek Smoke Juice. Our smoke juice is made completely from ingredients sourced right here in the United States. There is no blending or re-branding going on here and yes, we sure do have a lab where we create our batches!
So although I have to be honest and say that of course I agree with the underlying concern itself (I would hope we all do!) and I would always recommend vigilance in reviewing and using the products in the eSmoking industry (especially in it's infancy, as it is), let's also grade each company individually on it's merits and not make sweeping comments and assertions that may (or may not) apply to all of us.
By the way, I don't think that the fantastic customers of Johnson Creek would claim that our smoke juice tastes like a blended or re-branded anything.

Christian Berkey
Johnson Creek Original Smoke Juice

 

[Oklahoma]

Think about it. We knew all the bad chemicals that were in analog cigs and we still smoked them. Does it really matter?

 

[Jammi98]

Think about it. We knew all the bad chemicals that were in analog cigs and we still smoked them. Does it really matter?

It matters because:

A. What's the point of quitting analogs for health reasons if e-liquid turns out to be even worse?

B. Many people who are concerned about government regulation or banning believe that the untested "liquid from China" is just asking for a crackdown. Even if it is only used as an excuse because of losing tobacco tax dollars.

 

[Keltrey]

Hi Gang! Well I have to say that we were not going to post in reply, but I do have to respond to one point made here. Also, on another level, why not? Johnson Creek has, on several occasions, made quite public our core ingredients (indeed, more than just our core ingredients) right here on this forum. We are also launching a new label next week that will also list our ingredients.
The point is, we not only have nothing to "hide", but are indeed very proud of our products, the development of our products, the ingredients in our products, and the time that goes in to making our products.
Further, we do not source ANY ingredients from overseas to make Johnson Creek Smoke Juice. Our smoke juice is made completely from ingredients sourced right here in the United States. There is no blending or re-branding going on here and yes, we sure do have a lab where we create our batches!
So although I have to be honest and say that of course I agree with the underlying concern itself (I would hope we all do!) and I would always recommend vigilance in reviewing and using the products in the eSmoking industry (especially in it's infancy, as it is), let's also grade each company individually on it's merits and not make sweeping comments and assertions that may (or may not) apply to all of us.
By the way, I don't think that the fantastic customers of Johnson Creek would claim that our smoke juice tastes like a blended or re-branded anything.

Christian Berkey
Johnson Creek Original Smoke Juice

And what was the official cause for the Green E-liquid again?

 

[SupplierX]

My wife has a cabinet full of cosmetics, which she readily applies to her body, 90% of which were made in China. Take a look around your house, and I would be willing to bet that a large majority of things are made in china. The FDA will get involved soon enough, and will ban it for the nicotine content alone. I source my liquid from China and I stand behind my product. There have been no reports of negative effects other than alergic reactions, since e-cigs have been available. That is atleast two years of field testing complete. The bigger concern is that some suppliers out there are selling 30mL bottles of eLiquid and they are actually 25mL. If you are a supplier, mmeasure your bottles, make sure.
Every supplier is concerned about the health and well being of their customers, if not because they have a heart, but because of the major lawsuits that might come about.
Hint to suppliers: Get product liability insurance

 

[Kate]

Just out of interest, does product liability insurance cover untested, unregulated consumables?

It doesn't really matter to me where in the world my eliquid comes from, there are unethical people everywhere, I just think it matters that there is no regulation anywhere. Traders aren't usually motivated to prevent problems but usually prefer to try to clean up after a crisis has already happened. Contamination and tainted products could eventually kill someone before they are banned.

 

[smokum]

Keltrey, with all due respect, and with the chance that your simple text post did not portray your meaning properly as they most often do, I find it quite rude and condescending with intent.

I think Christian, and Johnson Creek on the whole, should be commended at a minimum for even participating in this thread considering you probably will find the majority will not.

I also think that if you have followed the threads about their liquids, and those of which contain reported cases of it turning green, you will find my (a simple and happy user of the products) posts where I have indicated the situation repeatedly and the direction that JC has taken to address the problem.

If you have missed those postings, I apologize and repeat, that samples were received from those affected and have been sent to their lab for analysis, and JC has openly conversed over the situation with me that upon finalizing testing they will openly report on their findings ONCE THEY ARE RECEIVED. These types of testing for a specific issue do not happen overnight.

If I have mistaken your tone, I truly apologize, and if I have not, then kindly take this tone elsewhere as it shows an unbecoming level of intelligence all too clearly.

VapeOn,
Greg

 

[Kate]

Christian came here to advertise, not to address the point of the thread Greg. We still don't know if JC is safe.

 

[deewal]

It matters because:

A. What's the point of quitting analogs for health reasons if e-liquid turns out to be even worse?

B. Many people who are concerned about government regulation or banning believe that the untested "liquid from China" is just asking for a crackdown. Even if it is only used as an excuse because of losing tobacco tax dollars.

The above two points are 100% correct and addressing.

 

[Liberate_Yourself]

I tend to agree with Trumpy, and I would be more than willing to contribute funds to the testing.. I would definitely want to know if the juice that I sell could potentially be causing ANY problems whatsoever. The problem lies in the fact ALL juice coming from China would have to be tested. Each different flavor could potentially contain a harmful chemical.. and why stop at just one factory?

I am going to continue to sell the juice on my site, because at this time, thousands of people have been vaping the same eJuice and nobody has reported any solid evidence that it is causing any harm. At the same time, I am looking into switching over to a US based company so that all dealings are local, and quality control is higher. I can already see the arguments associated with that statement so let me clarify.. Big tobacco has gotten away with including many harmful chemicals in their cigarettes for decades, however, smoking tobacco is an American past time and they have the pockets to pay off whomever they need to. Smoking tobacco also generates a huge tax revenue for the government. Why would they want to restrict it? On a smaller scale, such a JC for instance.. Quality control would have to be at a very high level, or they would be shut down. I also like the fact that they have registered with the FDA, thus adding to my confidence in their product. The downside? Limited selection of flavors, and for some odd reason some people's juices have turned green. I am at a moral crossroads as a supplier, and even though demand may be greater for some juices, I am going to have to go with what is safe for my customers.

The plan: Find out what juices are definitely, without a shadow of a doubt, safe.

 

[Keltrey]

Christian came here to advertise, not to address the point of the thread Greg. We still don't know if JC is safe.

Keltrey, with all due respect, and with the chance that your simple text post did not portray your meaning properly as they most often do, I find it quite rude and condescending with intent.

I think Christian, and Johnson Creek on the whole, should be commended at a minimum for even participating in this thread considering you probably will find the majority will not.

I also think that if you have followed the threads about their liquids, and those of which contain reported cases of it turning green, you will find my (a simple and happy user of the products) posts where I have indicated the situation repeatedly and the direction that JC has taken to address the problem.

If you have missed those postings, I apologize and repeat, that samples were received from those affected and have been sent to their lab for analysis, and JC has openly conversed over the situation with me that upon finalizing testing they will openly report on their findings ONCE THEY ARE RECEIVED. These types of testing for a specific issue do not happen overnight.

If I have mistaken your tone, I truly apologize, and if I have not, then kindly take this tone elsewhere as it shows an unbecoming level of intelligence all too clearly.

VapeOn,
Greg

No, you received the context of my post. I felt that Christan's post in reply to this thread was advertising and condescending to the person that posted it. You are correct though in the fact that most of the suppliers probably will not reply to this.

I wanted to point out a perfect reason why there needs to be more quality control over E-Liquid. The results of these tests were supposed to be available on the 21st. When that came and went we did not have an update from JC. I also believe that the fact they did not pause sales to find out whether or not it was a health concern is not putting the customers first. I am glad you are happy with their product, vape away. I for one won't go near it till they find out what is going on. If you want to continue this in private then feel free. I have said what I'm going to say.

(Edit)
"The results of these tests were supposed to be available on the 21st."

Excuse my incorrect date. Here was the actual statement.

"He suspects results will be available in the week of Jan. 22nd."

 

[smokum]

Thats not the case here at all Kate.

I had to strongly push him to participate in this thread when bringing it to his attention after relaying my own concerns in the OP's request directly to him.

We carry on an open dialog regularly through emails about the industry on the whole, and in particular, the concerns, idea's, and interesting facts from a user to supplier point of views.

I have been very satisfied in his personal responses, and I have yet to date been privy to ANY information that has either been asked not to be repeated, nor unshared with the forum on my behalf.

Most importantly, I agree whole-heartedly with the OP, that this is a legitimate request and WE all have a right to know what we inhale.

And I am not so nieve to not "smell a rat" and would be the first to openly relay that should the time ever arrise.

VapeOn,
Greg