A Challenge to all suppliers

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Kate

Moved On
Jun 26, 2008
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... Quality control would have to be at a very high level, or they would be shut down. I also like the fact that they have registered with the FDA, thus adding to my confidence in their product. ...

Who would shut them down, they are not regulated and will not be executed for bad hygiene or contamination?

JC have not been approved by the FDA, the registration has nothing whatsoever to do with quality of product.

I hope you find a safe product Lib, I hope the rest of us do too. Ruyan and Wicked are the only eliquids with disclosed test results that show them to have no known toxins. They are from China.
 

K-Sound Krew

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Nov 20, 2008
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Ruyan and Wicked are the only eliquids with disclosed test results that show them to have no known toxins. They are from China.

Not accusing anyone of anything, but..

Did anyone else think that the TW report was a bit off?

One of the degrees I hold is in clinical Psych, I spent alot of time reading medical journals, toxicology reports, etc;

And to be honest I did not find the TW report to be profesional or very clinical, what really threw me off was the last bit about switching from PG to VG, I find it hard to believe that a lab tech would make such a suggestion, especially on a subject as new as e-smoking

Again no accusations, just doesn't sit quite right with me
 
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smokum

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Actually, by my posting in that thread I repeated I was told that JC was hoping to have the report by the 22nd of January. OMG its a day late so far..... lol

Anyways, we've both had our say in the matter and we can agree to dissagree which is fine.... thats life. I don't however want to pull this thread away from it indended goal any further.

VapeOn, Respectfully,
Greg
 

Keltrey

Senior Member
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Dec 28, 2008
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Actually, by my posting in that thread I repeated I was told that JC was hoping to have the report by the 22nd of January. OMG its a day late so far..... lol

Anyways, we've both had our say in the matter and we can agree to dissagree which is fine.... thats life. I don't however want to pull this thread away from it indended goal any further.

VapeOn, Respectfully,
Greg

Agreed.

Respectfully,
Tom
 

nicowolf

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Nov 9, 2008
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Ok, here is my two cents worth:

Testing the liquid with an independent lab would get us that much closer to FDA approval when they do finally decide to step in and assert regulatory authority in the matter (yes, the government agencies are greedy and power hungry - that is how they maintain job security). If the suppliers already had a list of chemicals in the base liquid, or a full list of ingredients, as I am sure JC has, when the FDA comes knocking on their doors so to speak, then there is less chance of an all out ban of the stuff - or at the very least, a minimized interruption to business as usual.

I freely admit that I was once young and STUPID. I inhaled God knows what from God knows who and paid no attention to the possible repercussions. I got addicted to the crap. Now, I like to think that I am older and wiser than that. I actually would like to know what chemicals I am inhaling, what the possible side effects are, what the possible long term health implications might be, etc. I want to know where the nicotine comes from and what kind of chemicals are used to extract it and how much of those chemicals are still left in the stuff I am inhaling. I want to make educated decisions about what I put into my body. I went this route because it was, at least, a healthier-looking option to the cigarette carcinogens. I tried NRT methods, Chantix, controlled smoking, and cold turkey - all to know avail. Now I am trying this and having better results than anything else I have tried. I want to know what kind of damage this might do to me because I hope to do this long term.

I do not want your top secret recipes. I do not want you, suppliers, to foot the bill. I DO want you to form a collective group and submit some samples. I do want you to offset the cost of the testing with donations from all of us consumers, with slightly elevated prices if that is still necessary. I do want you to communicate with us and tell us what you want from us to make this happen.

Yes, you are being held to a higher standard than Big Tobacco. That is because we have been mistreated in the past and are not willing to continue being deprived of information. I do not want a patronizing, pat answer based on deductive logic like, "no burning substance means no carbon monoxide and no carcinogens". I want a list of chemicals at the very least.

This subject has been brought up numerous times. I think it is high time someone stepped up to the plate and gave us the hard truth about what we are inhaling - the good, the bad, and the ugly. That someone would certainly have my respect and probably my business.
 

Kate

Moved On
Jun 26, 2008
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Kate,

I am by no means saying that they are "safe" because of their registration and location.. It is more about showing that they aren't trying to hide anything.

Apologies Lib, I wasn't trying to flame you. One of the words that seems to set me off at the moment is China. It always seems to be used in negative contexts and is unfairly, in my opinion, compared with supposed safer countries. My annoyance is that sometimes we seem blind to the fact that anyone can cut corners or tamper with ingredients, it's not limited to a particular country, there is no regulation anywhere. For what it's worth I don't blindly trust Freesmoke either and that's made in a Spanish lab. If they have no proof they have no right to make claims of safety.

Nicely said Nicowolf.
 

Liberate_Yourself

Unregistered Supplier
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Nov 14, 2008
360
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www.smokeliberation.com
Very well said nico.

I completely agree, and "vaping" is still in its infancy. This is the time that we need to take action and make sure that we are headed down the right path. Otherwise, electronic cigarettes are going to fizzle out of sight or just be flat-out banned. At that point everyone that felt as if they were doing something good for themselves will more than likely feel betrayed, and go right back to the cancer sticks.. probably not really trusting any future products with promises of being a healthier alternative.

I like your idea of a shared financial interest. Maybe I can set something up on my site, where I can donate a percentage of all purchases to research, and open a separate account for when the time comes. Hmmm.. things to think about.

**Edit: No offense taken Kate. I completely understand your frustration and where you were coming from. I couldn't agree more, and wasn't trying to insinuate that product coming out of China can not be trusted. I suppose I have a sort of "safety blanket" complex with product originating from somewhere I can fly to in a matter of a couple hours if needed.

Ok, here is my two cents worth:

Testing the liquid with an independent lab would get us that much closer to FDA approval when they do finally decide to step in and assert regulatory authority in the matter (yes, the government agencies are greedy and power hungry - that is how they maintain job security). If the suppliers already had a list of chemicals in the base liquid, or a full list of ingredients, as I am sure JC has, when the FDA comes knocking on their doors so to speak, then there is less chance of an all out ban of the stuff - or at the very least, a minimized interruption to business as usual.

I freely admit that I was once young and STUPID. I inhaled God knows what from God knows who and paid no attention to the possible repercussions. I got addicted to the crap. Now, I like to think that I am older and wiser than that. I actually would like to know what chemicals I am inhaling, what the possible side effects are, what the possible long term health implications might be, etc. I want to know where the nicotine comes from and what kind of chemicals are used to extract it and how much of those chemicals are still left in the stuff I am inhaling. I want to make educated decisions about what I put into my body. I went this route because it was, at least, a healthier-looking option to the cigarette carcinogens. I tried NRT methods, Chantix, controlled smoking, and cold turkey - all to know avail. Now I am trying this and having better results than anything else I have tried. I want to know what kind of damage this might do to me because I hope to do this long term.

I do not want your top secret recipes. I do not want you, suppliers, to foot the bill. I DO want you to form a collective group and submit some samples. I do want you to offset the cost of the testing with donations from all of us consumers, with slightly elevated prices if that is still necessary. I do want you to communicate with us and tell us what you want from us to make this happen.

Yes, you are being held to a higher standard than Big Tobacco. That is because we have been mistreated in the past and are not willing to continue being deprived of information. I do not want a patronizing, pat answer based on deductive logic like, "no burning substance means no carbon monoxide and no carcinogens". I want a list of chemicals at the very least.

This subject has been brought up numerous times. I think it is high time someone stepped up to the plate and gave us the hard truth about what we are inhaling - the good, the bad, and the ugly. That someone would certainly have my respect and probably my business.
 
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deewal

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Aug 30, 2008
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In a house.
I think nicowolf speaks for many of us. I've certainly taken just about every drug going in the Past. I've been a Musician for over 50 years so i know all about that. The only drug i could'nt kick was Nicotine.
Now the only Drugs i take come from my Doctor and E-Cigs.
I need to know whether what i am inhaling is as bad for me as Tobacco was or not.

Liberate_Yourself.. Your avatar looks like a photo of a Fictional Serial Killer. :lol:
 

Jammi98

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 9, 2008
183
1
Houston, TX
Apologies Lib, I wasn't trying to flame you. One of the words that seems to set me off at the moment is China. It always seems to be used in negative contexts and is unfairly, in my opinion, compared with supposed safer countries. My annoyance is that sometimes we seem blind to the fact that anyone can cut corners or tamper with ingredients, it's not limited to a particular country, there is no regulation anywhere. For what it's worth I don't blindly trust Freesmoke either and that's made in a Spanish lab. If they have no proof they have no right to make claims of safety.

Nicely said Nicowolf.

Sorry Kate. I used the term "liquid from China" because it can be used by a regulatory or governmental agency that might be motivated to ban e-cigs (which has been brought up in other threads). It was not meant to imply that China is the only country whose citizens might cut corners in quality. God knows it's happened enough here in the US with other products.
 

Kate

Moved On
Jun 26, 2008
7,191
47
UK
No worries Jammi, I know what you mean, it's something I might even say myself. I think I'm a bit over sensitive at the moment, don't pay any attention to what I've said. Really I wish I hadn't posted on this thread, this is a very serious topic, feelings and business interests are strongly linked here.

Wouldn't it be heaven if we didn't have to worry about eliquid and all supplies were proven safe.
 

Liberate_Yourself

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Nov 14, 2008
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No worries Jammi, I know what you mean, it's something I might even say myself. I think I'm a bit over sensitive at the moment, don't pay any attention to what I've said. Really I wish I hadn't posted on this thread, this is a very serious topic, feelings and business interests are strongly linked here.

Wouldn't it be heaven if we didn't have to worry about eliquid and all supplies were proven safe.

That would indeed be very nice. I also think that your points were very valid, and I thank you for posting in this thread. Your input has helped me, as a supplier, to think about new ways to make sure that the people that I serve are well taken care of.
 

Lithium1330

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Nov 22, 2008
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Wouldn't it be heaven if we didn't have to worry about eliquid and all supplies were proven safe.

If enough people pull all together this is VERY possible.

Let's we ALL do our part, information and open talk is the beginning, then well informed lets preffer the suppliers that we all agreed are doing their part, as simple as that, if one supplier is willing to expend a share on tests, lets buy from him/her, again information, open talk and pro-action all together could make a difference.
 

Liberate_Yourself

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Nov 14, 2008
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It would be great if we didn't have to worry about the safety of our liquid. Liberate yourself, you just received a 1 up in my book ;)

Awwww.. Thanks riddle.. You are going to make me blush! :oops:

In all seriousness, I am awaiting the CNY to finish before i place my next juice order. Between now and that time, I am going to be deciding on what I am going to do as far as juice is concerned. I will be asking for a more in-depth ingredient list, and I will be asking my chemist friend to get me some documentation on each ingredient. I am also going to be starting a donation/profit sharing program for lab testing of eLiquid to make sure that the contents are exactly what is listed. You guys keep me alive, and I am going to do the same for you! :) (ok, ok, I know that was corny, but seriously.. you guys rock, and I am going to make sure that anything that I sell in the future is 100% safe for you guys, and if not, I will definitely let you know if there are any risks involved.)
 

TropicalBob

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 13, 2008
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Port Charlotte, FL USA
A serious suggestion that I follow: Order e-liquid but do not open it when it arrives. Put it aside for at least a month.

If people start dying with a new batch, those tragedies will show up on this forum -- and the evening news, no doubt. In that case, don't use your e-liquid.

If no one dies, puff on, brothers and sisters. :thumb:

But -- great post, Nicowolf -- I too want to know exactly what chemicals are produced during vaporizing and how various chemicals combine in our lungs. Lots of studies lie ahead if this practice is to be accepted.
 

davidnewns

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Oct 14, 2008
76
1
UK
www.intellicig.com
Hi everyone, this post is a mixture of my thoughts and what Intellicig is doing.

May I start off by saying presently I don’t see Intellicig as an eLiquid suppler or manufacturer, but am getting involved because of my interest in the subject and that Intellicig was mentioned in the opening post.
Clearly Intellicig sell cartridges that contain eLiquid, lets be honest, many of our customer choose to purchase eLiquid from alternate suppliers and fill our carts up.

The opening post talked about each supplier having Mass Spec conducted on their eLiquid, and in some way sharing the results. I’d like to share my thoughts (correct or not) with you all so perhaps it may add something to the table.

1. Mass Spec can give the chemical codes of a liquid sample; the codes are then matched up with a database to identify their name and attributes. Mass Spec cannot give any indications of volume, our testing provider gave us some percentages but said that they actually don’t mean much as they are measured by the amount of time it takes for a particular chemical to react. So even though percentages have been provided they should be given an error factor 500%!

2. Its ok doing Mass Spec on a sample, but with best intentions, any manufacturer will not have consistent batches, China, USA or UK, every human suffers from Friday afternoon syndrome! I met a lab today that are doing some testing for Trading Standards, they said the samples they have tested have been very different between them.

3. So we have done Mass Spec, we know what’s in the liquid, are we happy? I’d suggest not, many chemicals react at a certain temperature and molecules break out and form other chemicals. So really we need to test the vapour too? (Not as simple as it sounds so Im told!)

4. Intellicig decided not to offer flavours for the EVO because we feel this is the biggest minefield, as soon as you want a flavour you are talking 15-30 chemicals to create that flavour. We just have our standard carts, which presently contain between 3-5 chemicals in including Menthol.

I have been to the main eLiquid factory in China, they have shown me the SGS reports they have, even they say they are meaningless, these reports give the liquid a name (ie Choc Liquid) it is just a report produced from a sample the factory gave the lab called Choc Flav, does not mean that, that is what is in when they do the bulk manufacture of that particular eLiquid.
Also my understanding is that we need to have good raw ingredients, for example nicotine can be purchased in various purities and there are about 15 variants!

These are my thoughts im sure I will have more but I hope I have not rambled on too much and please be assured we are working hard in this area as a company, even though eLiquid is not a direct product of ours.

Kind Regards

David Newns
Intellicig
 
WOW you guys have been busy while I was asleep :)
Kudos to Liberate and David for taking the post as it was meant , simply that we should look at the product an actually try and do something about the concerns .
Regarding the Mass spec claims ... while not giving absolute percentages of a ingredient other than what is known to be in the liquid , it DOES however indicate if there is contamination of other chemicals not known or advertised ... and isnt that the point of our fears? that there might be something they are not telling us lurking in it ?
I can fully understand a supplier not wishing to comment on this thread, it opens them up to all sorts of challenges they dont wish to address, my thanks to those of you who have given your opinions , the product liability insurance comment made me smile, lets make sure our ... is covered at the least folks.. but why not work towards not having to need it perhaps?
just imagine if every registered member donated just $1 to the cause , that would get the ball rolling on some form of testing ....David , you made very valid points and have shown that Intellicig have at least pondered the problem, and have worked out your own solution ... I guess the way forward as I see it ( and only my humble opinion here) is to get at least ONE variant of the base nicotine declared to be exactly what it is represented to be and then as suppliers/manufacturers/ rebranders/ retailers ... you can at least CHOOSE to purchase this liquid over others and get the ball rolling , maybe force open , transparent marketing and testing of the others.

Apologies if I ruffled JC feathers , and if NONE of their actual ingredients are manufactured overseas ( and just because they are SUPPLIED locally doesnt mean they arent in fact sourced overseas in the first instance ) then I hope in time they will do their own testing and publication of their findings.

Good discussions all , and hopefully heading in a direction where someone might be brave enough to say " OK we will do it !!! "
 
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