A Challenge to all suppliers

[Trumpybloke]

Oh and Mass Spec testing isnt the be all and end all , but its the first test that will either give the all clear or indicate further action is required
Vapour too can be created , condensed and mass spec tested too

 

[billster88]

Hello everyone,

I can agree with Kate on this one in regards to the unknown factor...we are getting those lab tests done in the very near future..reason being is that we feel we cannot sell e-liquid on our site (unless in carts) until we know exactly what they are..are they exactly the amount of nicotine? Is the product made to certain standards? Right now we are going with carts that are sealed and from the one supplier we purchase from..we have had some customers who have tried to "drip" some e-liquids (not naming names here) and we have had atomizer issues(failing) ..it seems that almost all our customers who don't use any other liquids besides what is in the carts seem to have absolutely no problem at all...So in that respect I doubt that it is a coincidence...Although I will say that a "dripper" is probably using it more "heavily" than regular customers and that should be counted in to the equation...Will post more as we get the info from the Labs...

Billster

 

[Jammi98]

I find it very disturbing that there is so little quality control on liquid manufacture that the factories themselves say the testing is useless. I would think that if all the soft drink, fruit juice, etc. manufacturers can put out a consistent product complete with ingredient and nutrient labels that it should not be that difficult.

I don't think that anyone (certainly not me) is asking for the specific ingredients used in flavoring. What I do need to know is that the flavorings are safe for human consumption*, that the PG or VG is food grade, and that the nicotine extraction method does not add any harmful chemicals to the mix.

*Even if no testing has been done on inhaling the flavorings, I would be relieved to at least know it wouldn't kill you to eat the stuff.

 

[riddle80]

We need a seal of approval or something to give to manufacturers who "pass" the testing. Manufacturers would voluntarily submit their products for testing. Maybe the money could come from the manufacturers who want this "seal" and have to pay for submission. If e-liquid users would only use the products that have this then all manufacturers would want to pay to have it. Just a thought . Lots of details to iron out with something like that though, but I'd sure as heck buy liquid that had a seal of approval on it (as long as it was from a trusted source). As far as who could found such an organization, I have no idea. It would have to be non-bias and for public safety only though.

 

[Satire]

Think about it. We knew all the bad chemicals that were in analog cigs and we still smoked them. Does it really matter?

.. after all most of us dont knwo the 4000 chemicals we were inhaling from analogs did we?

My wife has a cabinet full of cosmetics, which she readily applies to her body, 90% of which were made in China. Take a look around your house, and I would be willing to bet that a large majority of things are made in china. The FDA will get involved soon enough, and will ban it for the nicotine content alone. I source my liquid from China and I stand behind my product. There have been no reports of negative effects other than alergic reactions, since e-cigs have been available. That is atleast two years of field testing complete. The bigger concern is that some suppliers out there are selling 30mL bottles of eLiquid and they are actually 25mL. If you are a supplier, mmeasure your bottles, make sure.
Every supplier is concerned about the health and well being of their customers, if not because they have a heart, but because of the major lawsuits that might come about.
Hint to suppliers: Get product liability insurance

Wow, willful ignorance is running wild on our precious forum... This is disgusting. Oklahoma you should just.... damn.
Taleywhacker you are a damn fool, just because people no one that we know of has dropped dead yet doesn't mean that there is "two years of field testing complete" and for damn sure doesn't prove any type of safety. How many people do you know died after 2 years of smoking analogs? It is a slow process that can take years to begin the mutation, and years more before it becomes problematic to the point of seeking medical attention. Plus MANY people have reported strange side effects from e-smoking, they have a whole thread about it in the health section. To write these off as an "allergic reaction" when you obviously have no idea what they have been inhaling is an offensive display of douchebaggery.
To be honest I would actually trust a chinese "base formula," because it would more than likely be tested (they have taken more steps than anyone to ensure the safety of their products) and quality-controlled. Steve @ puresmoker and the johnsons creek boys both seem to be extracting the nicotine themselves, and I highly doubt that they are certified organic chemists who know how to properly isolate an alkaloid from a plant without bringing a large portion of the "other stuff" into the final product (I think someone made a toxicology report and posted it in the health forum). It is well known that tobacco has hundreds of toxic and mutagenic chemicals in it, and all of the professional lab analysis reports I have seen have found plenty of these substances in the liquids (they like to blow these off with a simple line about how it is present in small quantities, but thats exactly how they work, small quantities building up in the body after repeat exposure or simply making small genetic changes then being excreted over and over until it finally hits something valuble).
Ruyan has already revised their formula to remove some of these, and they don't put all the random, potentially hazardous flavorings that are seen in Cash's and TW's liquids into theirs. THEY are moving in the right direction. They KNOW what is in every single drop of their fluid, and are still working on making it even safer (major kudos for them, too bad they don't sell just the juice). These home-brew guys are potentially adding every single dangerous substance from tobacco to their product PLUS the assorted flavorings which they refuse to identify or have tested. Requests for ingredient lists, extraction methods, etc are promptly ignored; yet they jump at any oppourtunity to brag about their "all natural formulas" and wonderful new flavors. This shows that (at this point) they either do not give a **** about safety and are just trying to package and ship as many orders as they can before regulation starts (the way they market and sell these untested products is only going to speed up the process), or are completely oblivious to the fact that the stuff they toss in for that extra aroma (or the faster, simpler, or more cost-efficient extraction techniques that they use) are potentially hazardous. In either case safety is obviously not an issue to them (taleywhackers comment about getting product liability insurance instead of spending that money on a chemical analysis exemplifies this nicely, sad that they have turned into money-loving pigs so soon).
I do hope that the suppliers veer back to the road of righteousness (especially the once friendly and kind Cashmere who now has some douche marketing his products all over the forum) before it is too late. When that first e-smoker is diagnosed with an illness that is linked to their products, there will be a ****storm of lawsuits and endangerment charges that only a multi-billion dollar industry armed with the smoothest talking lawyers and far-reaching political influence (Phillip Morris) could even hope to come out of alive. If it reaches that point they will get no sympathy from me, and hopefully none at all. This has the potential to be as safe as nicotine gum, but only if it is made properly with tested ingredients (and no, just because it is allowed in food doesn't mean it is safe to vaporize and inhale every day for years and years).

Trumpy you have my support, I will look into the prices for analytical testing for you, maybe we can make it happen (or worst-case scenario, I will make my own, get it checked, and offer it to a handful of people who care about their health since I don't have time or resources to devote to a full scale business endeavor).

Kate I love and respect you but your comment "Ruyan and Wicked are the only eliquids with disclosed test results that show them to have no known toxins" is false. Both reports showed known toxins. Look at the list of chemicals, not the comments added my the (paid) chemists. Besides, more than likely, the guy is just be a grunt-level analytical chemist, not a medical expert (not referring to ruyan's, but the others). Plus their comments are quite dismissive and unreviewed (meaning it is just their opinion, not a collective opinion of multiple scientists). AND (sorry to be a ****) totally wicked offers dozens of flavors (thus, have different chemical compositions), none of which have been tested that I know of. Though Ruyan is definately the most safety-minded formula I have seen, there are still some toxic chemicals being reported.

Dunno how to wrap this up (will probably be ignored anyway), but to everyone supporting the quest for the safe e-liquid, keep it up and I will do whatever I can to help. And to the others, if you don't care about your health then why did you even bother switching from tobacco in the first place?

 

[Bellinghamster]

I'm going to have my "Reply To Thread" button removed - I use it too much...

Satire, you have some good points in there regarding e-liquid safety - in that there is none. The assertions made by so many vendors about improved health are flatly irresponsible.

That said, if safety is of paramount importance and e-cigs are clearly not "safe"... why not quit? There are gum, patches, FDA-approved inhalers, lozenges, and all manner of NRT. One may work, and then you will be safe.

Until you are hit by a bus, mugged in an alley, develop an previously undiagnosed genetic disease, or choke on an olive. (This is used for illustration - I sincerely hope NONE of this ever happens to you!)

Life is a game of risk management. You can risk it all and die, or eliminate all risk and never live. I'm somewhere in between.

I like love smoking and won't stop just because it will take a few years off the end... I want to enjoy the ones I have now. I still have the odd analog, or clove, or glass of whiskey

I also support the search for safer liquid. Whatever we can do to improve the current products is in all our best interest.

 

[Daniel@P.S.]

I do hope that the suppliers veer back to the road of righteousness (especially the once friendly and kind Cashmere who now has some douche marketing his products all over the forum) before it is too late.

There is no need to call people names. I was only marketing this because I was told go ahead and build suspense for his new product. Being funny is something I like to do and sorry if I offended you by building up suspense for a brand new product that we have not carried before. Steve is still as nice and friendly as before, but now i'm unsure on how this changed.

 

[Jaaxx]

Been doing some reading about Mass Spec testing and chemical analysis. It's not terribly expensive to get a breakdown of the elements in a liquid. However it's not really gonna tell you what's in it so much as what is not in it.

You can eliminate known contaminants by the absence of their elements in the mixture. On the other hand it is very difficult to tell what is being put in it by looking at the breakdown. Let's see, "Its got X amount of Hydrogen and Y amount of Oxygen". Now, is that in the form of H2O or HO?

I'm not an expert by any means (in fact I'm pretty clueless), but it seems the testing is cheap and easy, the analysis is the hard part (and expensive) and drawing useful conclusions from the analysis even harder.

Just some food for thought.

 

[riddle80]

Good news Jaaxx! That could be a great first step . I don't have a clue about how to do the testing either, but there's so many intelligent folks on this forum I know if we all put our heads together good things will happen.

(p.s. My fiance is not a douche!! And Steve is a very nice guy.)

 

[CaSHMeRe]

First and foremost, there should be ZERO reason for a supplier hiding from this thread. This is what makes the ECF a true community. F*** the BS, F*** the ......ed posts, and lets get down to the heart of the facts.

Here is my take on the situation, it may agree or disagree with where you stand, but this is MY reality.

Testing has always been a priority for PureSmoker. Plain and simple, the past 2-3 months have been spent sourcing materials and a lab that will mix and test batches before EACH AND EVERY shipment. You think we enjoy having to import everything from CHINA ?!?!?! With that said, here are the MANY issues we run in to.

A: Sourcing from China. THE easiest thing to do, that is why so many suppliers (including myself decide to take that path) Do I enjoy getting liquid manufactured in a place 12,000 miles from where it will eventually end up? Not at all. Do I have ingredient lists and lab test for all the liquid I sell? I sure do, BUT, they are NOT done on each and every liquid.

B: Testing each batch. Lets say, a batch of 12 flavors are made, and you get roughly 8,000 - 10,000 bottles from it. Sourcing is cheap, legally getting it made is a completely separate issue. I have spoken to several labs and several sourcing companies. We have talked about derivatives and even different materials all together that will get the same effect as nicotine but will be 100% legal and *harmless* With that said, each spectrometer test, we are looking at is good $600-$800/depending on the lab and the depth of the actual test (there are several that can be preformed including full breakdowns/percentages/substitutes/etc... <-- just more money in the end) For a liquid to be 100% safe, it will have to be tested EACH and EVERY TIME.

C: Lets face the facts. With the cost of materials, the manufacturing of liquid here in the GREAT USA, and the testing of each and every batch, you are LOOKING AT VERY VERY EXPENSIVE LIQUID. When a consumer looks at a bottle of 30ml liquid for $20 bucks, and then go to a separate supplier and see the same 30ml liquid for 2-3 times as much, what is the consumer going to do (assuming about 90% of consumers don't have the knowledge or the in depth research that the members of this forum do?) They will end up going with the cheaper liquid, plan and simple.

The Key to Electronic Cigarettes is simple. Time, Money, and Research. Ruyan has the money to be able to test batches constantly, us *smaller* guys don't. I have no problem investing the funds in to getting this done, HOWEVER, we need to remember, electronic cigarettes and the substance consumed by them, can be banned at any given moment, therefore, ALL THAT MONEY WOULD BE GONE UP IN SMOKE! Its a HUGE risk, one that I am willing to undertake and assume slowly, but investing hundreds of thousands of dollars on a *whim and hope* is very very very HARD to do!

No doubt, a quality liquid, with proven batches and proven ingredients behind it will have a *Better* chance at qualifying for not an initial ban, but you have to remember. Dealing with a *new classified drug* you take the risk of it getting an instaban.

WITH THAT SAID, PURESMOKERS LAST SHIPMENT OF LIQUID (RECEIVED TODAY 1/24/09) WILL BE 100% TESTED.

BOTH THE PURE and CASH LIQUIDS WILL BE FULLY TESTED WITH FULL INGREDIENT BREAKDOWNS. WE HAVE ZERO SECRETS TO HIDE AND ZERO INGREDIENT TRADE SECRETS TO HIDE.

ONCE PROVEN, WE WILL TRY TO TEST EACH AND EVERY BATCH MADE. THIS MAY RESULT IN HIGHER PRICES, BUT, IF IT ALLOWS THE COMMUNITY TO BREATH A SIGH OF RELIEF WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT THEY ARE INHALING (RATHER THAN TOBACCO SMOKE THEY ONCE DID) THEN THAT WILL HAVE TO BE THE NEXT STEP FOR PURESMOKER. We will continue to strive overtime to see if we can take that next step in USA manufacturing and testing ...

I appreciate every post and response within this thread. If you have any specific questions, concerns, or comments, never hesitate to ask or make them public.

As always, we try to be as open and honest as possible. I personally won't hide behind anything... and will try and answer to the best of my knowledge.

(especially the once friendly and kind Cashmere who now has some douche marketing his products all over the forum)

Satire, bear with us bud. We are in a transition faze, and I won't even start to tell you my limited knowledge when I first started. Knowledge comes with time spent in the depths of research. Daniel has not only done a wonderful job helping fellow members and individuals out, he has also helped take a great load off my shoulders to try and take PureSmoker to the next level. I apologize if his knowledge seems limited at this time, but he is honestly trying his best and spending hours and hours doing so! Give him a chance, that's all I can ask....

Thanks for hearing us out guys ....

 

[nitewriter]

Health is definitely a concern to us all, which is why we seek a safer way to satisfy our addiction. I seriously doubt anyone here would have chosen e-cigs had they not thought they were better than analogs in some way.

We are truly the pioneers of these new devices. We ARE the studies for future generations. Because of our current and on-going "trials" we could eliminate many health conditions caused by analogs for those future generations. Personally, I believe its worth the risks we're taking now.

The lab testing on the eLiquids will get done because of suppliers like Steve and those that support those efforts, and not with childish name-calling.

 

[Trumpybloke]

Cash , great post , this is exactly what I am hoping can be achieved , I recognise the financial burden would be great for a single supplier , what you are doing is admirable for a single business , imagine what could be done if it were an industry wide effort?.
Its not an attempt to drive costs thru the roof, or to insult any one individual or company , I know what can be achieved by something like a supplier co-operative in sourcing quality ingredients , it would achieve tested products, an industry standard , ad possibly lower base costs , as a result from approved suppliers??

 

[TropicalBob]

Congratulations Cash. Attaboys to you for batch testing. I think concerned e-smokers should focus on suppliers that extend efforts toward providing safe liquids. You, JC and Wicked are marching in the right direction.

A thought: If you were an insurance company, what would you charge to insure a supplier selling unregulated, untested, unknown liquid whose sole purpose is to be vaporized and inhaled into lungs both young and old? Even Lloyds of London should be frightened off.

And to those who think doctors should recommend e-smoking: Who are you kidding? What doctor would suggest such an unregulated, potentially hazardous method of quitting smoking? It would be beyond irresponsible for any physician to do so. Let's 'get real' and stop any idea that the medical community should endorse our little e-devices. Not gonna happen. And it shouldn't at this time.

 

[Satire]

Cash you have no idea how long I have waited to hear you say that, thanks for understanding. Couple suggestions for ya though: Testing every single batch of every single flavor would be a ridiculous amount of money and entirely unnecessary. A one-time full analysis of the chemical make-up of the product (ideally each finished product should have a full analysis but if this is not immediately financially possible, a chemical break-down of your source material and a list of the flavorings you use would be a wonderful start, as the purity of the nicotine poses an obvious and very serious threat) would be satisfactory (actually if the base material turns out ok, I would be overjoyed if you offered a flavor-less, vappable liquid with no added ingredients). If you can assure us that the nicotine is extracted using the same process every time and the same flavorings are used, then the chemical components should always be the same (possibly slight variations in %s of each but that is not a big deal if the ingredients are safe anyway), and this is sufficient for me. I completely understand your need for competitive prices (though personally I wouldn't mind paying more if it ensures safety), and you certainly deserve to make profit for all you have done for the community, so if you assure us a consistent product (especially the purity of the source nicotine and using the same flavorings) then I would never be so arrogant as to demand constant testing. This is obviously not necessary (and probably not even financially possible to do and still make any profit), and I have no desire to waste anyone's hard-earned money.

However, I do appreciate that you would be willing to go that far for us, we are very lucky to have you as our supplier instead of some faceless entity that doesn't respond to any form of contact and sells unreliable, over-priced products (I have heard horror stories from people who have bought from other suppliers). Please keep us posted on whatever the reports come up with. Oh and I almost forgot, don't waste your money on a "medical analysis" or whatever they call the report that ruyan had done, just a full chemical analysis (not an ingredient list! that wont tell us nicotine purity or contents of the flavorings) of the liquid, we can get safety info on the chemicals ourselves and a "ok" stamp from some random chemist that may or may not have any idea about potential chronic exposure problems doesn't hold much weight anyway, facts do.

Last thing concerning Daniel: I don't know him and am in no position to judge character, all I know was I saw a guy spouting a car-salesman pitch about the wonderful new products of the company he represents (company makes it sound so...cold, I still like thinking of it as Steve's website) on a forum for unbiased customer reviews (he posted mostly in supplier's forum but put links to it and hype-ad-style comments in the regular threads), so that is what led to my comment, but if you approve him I'll wipe my opinions clean and give him a 2nd chance

Thanks again :*

 

[Lithium1330]

Satire: If I got it right, Cash is buying right now his custom made liquid from China, so I don't know if he can assure us that every batch is made with the same ingredients and that the nicotine is extracted using the same process every time without doing tests to every batch and flavor.

Kudos to Cash and every suppliers concerned with safety.

 

[MikeMac]

I shouldn't be responding to this topic since I don't qualify as a long time user of these products. Though I will make a few observations based on my experience of being a business owner for 18 years.

First off, China:

Chinese products are everywhere. You cannot get away from them if you wanted to. Many times you cannot find a comparable product made in the US. And those Chinese products are supposedly tested and lot sampled. The what about lead paint in children's toys, cosmetics and other painted products. Now we are finding that Chinese food products are tainted with impurities that would never have happened in the US with a US manufacturer due to stringent standards.

No matter what Chinese manufacturers say, can you truly believe them. And if you can believe them now, how about later? I have personal experience with electronic products manufactured in China. They are made correctly for the first few production runs and then turn to excrement in shipments after that. And what recourse does any company or individual have against a Chinese manufacturer. What would be the procedure to file a lawsuit against a Chinese manufacturer?

Business, Profits and E-Cigs:

After doing some investigation, I don't see there is a ton of money to be made in the e-cigarette market. I seriously doubt any of the companies currently involved in this micro-market are making money hand over fist. This is just based on my limited research and I could be wrong. Let's also keep in mind that the goal of business is profit. Profit is what keeps an economy going. It's a GOOD thing. It makes sense for a business owner to try to provide the best service or product possible. A happy customer makes return customers and evangelists. That results in profit. It does not make sense to screw over customers with known shoddy products or products that purposely make their customers ill. To think that business is evil and taking advantage of it's customers is wrongheaded. Those businesses that do not provide good service will go under and the better ones will prevail. It's the market system. "Righteousness" in business is the accepted way to profits. Un-righteousness will correctly cause the business to fail.

On product liability:

Anytime you are in business and no matter WHAT you are selling you are only one lawsuit away from bankruptcy. It's the litigious society we live in. It is also a sad state of affairs. If those who are concerned with the myriad of possible health risks consider going into business with e-cig products, they'd better think twice. There is no completely safe product. Whoever thought that you could kill yourself by huffing on a can of compressed air. That said and with that same thinking, I would recommend that anyone selling e-cigs seriously consider getting out of the business. The product is untested and unknown. You could all be sued any minute. Those who are now enamored with these products should purchase them straight from the factories in China. And once again, if they have a problem with the product or believe that the product has caused them harm, they can sue the Chinese company directly. (Good luck with that)

Government Approval and Regulation:

Ever heard of the FDA? Do you know how long their approval process is? Do you know just how expensive it is? And how about those products that have been tested and approved only to be recalled later. And do we really want the government to regulate e-cigs? If so, there goes the price differential between analogs and e-cigs. In fact, if nicotine is so cheap, why does the nicotine patch cost so much? FDA approvals, regulation, taxes and a ton of other non-product related expenses.

So in the end, are we all talking about what is in the juice? What about when you apply electrical current to a coil of wire, drip that juice on it, vaporize it and breathe it in? What concentration is going into your body? What chemicals have just been morphed into something else, something dangerous? Is it time for massive government intervention, clinical trials, lab work, chemical analysis and more? Maybe. But what price are you willing to pay for this wonderful testing? Are you willing to lose it all together? If so, perhaps it's time to give them up now and go back to analogs.

I think it would behoove us all to tread lightly on the evil businesses selling those e-devices and components you are enjoying. It IS prudent to ask "what's in it". But is it prudent to kill the whole product line by demanding government approvals, lab testing, clinical trials and double blind studies?

In addition, what other products that you consume everyday could fit into this category? What is in beef that can mess with your health? In coffee? Wine? Water? Air? Chocolate? Sugar? Saccharine? Aspartame?

Be careful not to kill the goose that lays those treasured golden eggs full of nicotine.

 

[Ab]

Ah, the good old east vs west debate, it's like the cold war in here.

Each batch needs to be tested, regardless of where it was produced. It's probably time to start getting responsible and it looks like that is a popular opinion with other suppliers.

After doing some investigation, I don't see there is a ton of money to be made in the e-cigarette market.

I would have to agree with this, in so much that the number of searches for electric cigarettes etc isn't that great at all, when I say great I mean in the order of 10's of thousands a day. That in itself is probably a good indicator of how well known all of this is known. It's doesn't truly say the amount of money there is in the market currently but I do know it is growing at a hell of a rate. If you think about it, if it was huge, it would have to be more regulated than it is.

I think Cash has nailed it pretty dead on with his post.

 

[deewal]

Just seen this on the Sedansa Website

Sedansa does not use Propylene Glycol anymore in his cartridges this substance is not specified as dangerous but some of our medical advisers had a doubt in using PPG in inhalation process, therefore we took the step as always forward in not using PPG in our cartridges..
The taste changes a little bit, but produces actually more Steam and is full aromatic.

So Sedansa's "Medical Advisers" have a doubt about PG.
Anyone know why ?

Anyone had a Big Mac analysed lately ?

 

[trog100]

Just seen this on the Sedansa Website

Sedansa does not use Propylene Glycol anymore in his cartridges this substance is not specified as dangerous but some of our medical advisers had a doubt in using PPG in inhalation process, therefore we took the step as always forward in not using PPG in our cartridges..
The taste changes a little bit, but produces actually more Steam and is full aromatic.

So Sedansa's "Medical Advisers" have a doubt about PG.
Anyone know why ?

Anyone had a Big Mac analysed lately ?

it could also mean sedansa are aware that some people have doubts (valid or not) and are simply using these doubts to sell more of their own products..

trog

 

[smokum]

Sounds like fluff to me, considering PPG and PG are two different things

VapeOn,
Greg