A little PG/VG Purity Confusion..

[Rocketman]

But, USP on the label means the supplier sort of promises it meets USP requirements,
Trust me

I guess they also have to pay a Registrar company to file their FDA 'Registration'.


Head into your local Walmart and look in the Vitamin section. USP Verified is the 'Extra Advertising Edge' used by some of the supplement makers.
Vapers are still just a drop in the bucket for PG and VG sales. Some other market will have to influence PG and VG suppliers to go after the more costly process audits to be USP verified.

 

[Cyrus Vap]

But, USP on the label means the supplier sort of promises it meets USP requirements,
Trust me

I guess they also have to pay a Registrar company to file their FDA 'Registration'.



Head into your local Walmart and look in the Vitamin section. USP Verified is the 'Extra Advertising Edge' used by some of the supplement makers.
Vapers are still just a drop in the bucket for PG and VG sales. Some other market will have to influence PG and VG suppliers to go after the more costly process audits to be USP verified.

This would seem to validate some who are inclined to describe their nicotine as USP

 

[Racehorse]

Food Grade Vegetable Gylcerin, you know the stuff made from Palm oil, just doesn't seem to be good enough to vape.

I am a bit hesitant to inhale anything w/Palm Oil, although I would have no problem "injesting" it.

Since I am not a DIY, am I correct to assume that even after you get real "answers" from the companies manufacuring/ processing the VG......you would then have to perform the same due dilligence by finding out from one's juice vendor what they are using in their juice? All this seems like a maze to me.

When it comes to food, for instance, I'm one of those people who believes that just because they sell it in the grocery store doesn't mean that it's inherently healthy or non-harmful to eat/injest. I know better. Nitrates and HFCS are simply not healthy in the large quantities people injest, and there are health problems that have been studied from their use recently.

So I will be following this topic, and others like it, because JUST getting off stinkies isn't enough for me, I need to feel with some reasonable certainty that what I'm replacing them with is not only merely safer, but actually SAFE as well.

Am I correct in saying that right now, there are no long term studies to prove this, only experts giving their assurances based on what they DO know so far? in the face of lacking any actual trials/long term studies of vaping populations?

Sorry, I'm not up on all the political /medical stuff surrounding vaping, (newbie) and even if I were, I'm not smart enough to *interpret* it, so I depend on those of you who understand what they are reading and who can translate this stuff for me.

 

[TTK]

Lets remember that manufacturers can do their own testing of products to show that their product meets USP Purity specs. And they can publish those tests. It just isn't called USP Verified because USP did not do the testing.

 

[Rocketman]

I am a bit hesitant to inhale anything w/Palm Oil,

It actually isn't Palm oil, it's derived from palm oil, or rapeseed oil, or corn oil, or oil oil
Google the various sources for Glycerin.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Am I correct in saying that right now, there are no long term studies to prove this, only experts giving their assurances based on what they DO know so far? in the face of lacking any actual trials/long term studies of vaping populations?

...

I think this pretty well sums up where things are.

We can’t really Blame the guys in the White Lab Coats though. Even though it might seem like it, mass e-Cigarette use is Relatively New.

This may sound Simplistic. But to determine Long Term effects of e-Cigarette use, researchers will need to find a Large enough sample of people who have used e-Cigarettes for a Long Time to make their results Statistically Meaningful.

How many vapers do you know or have even heard of that have vaped for say 10 years?

To compound this problem, there is also an issue of what was the health of the vaper when they started vaping? Meaning: If I take a person who has used an e-Cigarette for say a 18 months after being a PAD Smoker for 30 years and find that He/She has lung Problems, was it the e-Cigs or the Smoking or Both that was the cause?

What research would like are people who were known to be healthy BEFORE they started using e-Cigarettes and who have never Smoked. Jeeze, that just about as Hard to find as a 10 Year vaper if not Harder.

But here is Perhaps the Hardest thing a Research will face. The Lack of a Baseline.

If a researcher could find a Large Enough sample of Long Term Vapers ( who were know to be Healthy BEFORE they started vaping and never Smoked ) who ONLY have vaped Non-Flavored Non-Sweetened and Non-Colored PG or VG Based e-Liquids, meaningful inferences may be able to be made about the Long Term effects of PG or VG Inhalation.

Unfortunately, Most vaper have and or continue to Vape a Virtual Cornucopia of Chemical Compounds via Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants. How many Unkown Chemicals are in your Favorite Flavored e-Liquid? One or Two? Half of them? ALL of them? And what are the Chemical Interactions of all these Chemicals to themselves, to the PG/ VG or to the Plastic Bottles they come in or the Clear Tubes/Tank we use to Vape them?

I think you will agree that it is One Big Tangled Mess for a Researcher to Unravel. If it is even possible to Unravel.


---

BTW – I think in the Future that it will be found that the Greater Health Risk wasn’t “Food Grade” verses “____ Grade” PG or VG. I believe it will from the High Percentage of Flavoring/Sweeteners used in Flavored e-Liquids

 

[Hoosier]

ZoiDman did a pretty good job of covering the basics of why proof is a difficult thing. Without "bulletproof" methodolgy and accounting of the variables, even a good try at proof can/will be ripped to shreds in the review process. (Not to say it that this mythical study wouldn't have rabid attacks even with a well developed methodolgy and variable accounting, but that would probably be after it went through the review process.)

Never trust an expert anyway.

 

[zoiDman]

... Without "bulletproof" methodolgy and accounting of the variables, even a good try at proof can/will be ripped to shreds in the review process. (Not to say it that this mythical study wouldn't have rabid attacks even with a well developed methodolgy and variable accounting, but that would probably be after it went through the review process.)

...

Yeah, this is also why it is a Tough Sell to the People who make Policies on things like Indoor Bans. Because it is Impossible to say just what is In an average e-Liquid Currently or what is being Exhaled Out by the Average Vapor.

 

[TTK]

It is also true that Science, unlike Mathematics, is not static in its "proofs" in this complex field. New discoveries are being made each day. So, what may be declared as safe today, may be found to not be so safe down the road as Science extends its understanding, as in one of Woddy Allen's futuristic movies where Chocolate Pie had been found to be a health food.

 

[zoiDman]

It is also true that Science, unlike Mathematics, is not static in its "proofs" in this complex field. New discoveries are being made each day. So, what may be declared as safe today, may be found to not be so safe down the road as Science extends its understanding.

This is a Good Point also.

 

[Hoosier]

It is also true that Science, unlike Mathematics, is not static in its "proofs" in this complex field. New discoveries are being made each day. So, what may be declared as safe today, may be found to not be so safe down the road as Science extends its understanding, as in one of Woddy Allen's futuristic movies where Chocolate Pie had been found to be a health food.

Exactly, but there are those voices who say that if something isn't proven to be safe, then it is dangerous. (That delves into the whole circular logic of proving a negative, but logic isn't a strong trait in many organisms.)

 

[zoiDman]

Exactly, but there are those voices who say that if something isn't proven to be safe, then it is dangerous. (That delves into the whole circular logic of proving a negative, but logic isn't a strong trait in many organisms.)

In the area of Public Health, Policy Makers and the Courts have taken a Historical Approach that the Burden of Proof is on the Side to say something is Safe verses the Side how say it is Not Safe.

Not say’n this is Right or Wrong.

But I can see Many Benefits to the Public by taking this approach.

 

[myxomatosis]

So, after reading this thread in it's entirety - here's the reader's digest version of the two known TRUTHS:

1) Nobody knows. And even if someone DID know, the limitless variables (batch-to-batch) prevent any consistent accurate truths.

2) We're all gonna die. Whether it's cigarettes, vaping, bananas, carefully package chocolate delicates, syrup flavorings, oil spills, nuclear radiation, ozone depletion, hit by bus, death by astronaut monkey, orange rind on the sidewalk, dog excrement inhalation, over ingestion of whipped topping, head caught in hoop slam dunking, dia-bet-us, rat poison on gnome lawn ornament, old lady knife fight on public transportation, viral elbow rash, choking on altoids, pickle in eye, hippopotamus attack, rectal cancer, falling up the stairs - then down, eating mushrooms plus cliff diving into shallow water, toaster incident, armpit infection, sticky-note paper cuts, trapped in a latrine, drowning, dousing, vomiting, death by tuxedo, roller coaster mishap, wake boarding shark introduction or just a unfortunate game of horseshoes - we're all going. So grab a friend and keep a song near your heart. Vape ON!

Good day, sir!

 

[Hoosier]

I'm holding out hope that my death is by astronaut monkey just because that would be a good Hoosier story...

 

[zoiDman]

I'm hoping for Death by Falling Up the Stairs.

But I guess I would have to be in Australia for that to happen.

 

[mjradik]

---

BTW – I think in the Future that it will be found that the Greater Health Risk wasn’t “Food Grade” verses “____ Grade” PG or VG. I believe it will from the High Percentage of Flavoring/Sweeteners used in Flavored e-Liquids

I couldnt agree with this more.

 

[Cyrus Vap]

2nd conversation with NOW


I inquired about purity. I got a load of "who are you? are you a manufacturer? What's your interest in glycerin?"

Well I had to throw my almost credentials at him and he shut up. Hate doing that.

They say their glycerin meets not only USP, but also EP specifications.

I asked why its not labeled as such. They said there's been some disagreement in the company about labeling, with some people favoring the USP label. But because most people are using it for 'personal care' and skin application, not drug compounding etc, they 1) don't care 2) may be put off by the idea of pharmaceutical grade

I asked if I could see a COA. I was told that when a bulk purchase was made (we're a whole sale unit) it would come with one and all relevant information. They offered to 'cut and paste' some non official data and numbers, etc, and email it to me. Haven't gotten anything yet. Sent an email this morning.

Stay tuned

 

[TTK]

2nd conversation with NOW


I inquired about purity. I got a load of "who are you? are you a manufacturer? What's your interest in glycerin?"

Well I had to throw my almost credentials at him and he shut up. Hate doing that.

They say their glycerin meets not only USP, but also EP specifications.

I asked why its not labeled as such. They said there's been some disagreement in the company about labeling, with some people favoring the USP label. But because most people are using it for 'personal care' and skin application, not drug compounding etc, they 1) don't care 2) may be put off by the idea of pharmaceutical grade

I asked if I could see a COA. I was told that when a bulk purchase was made (we're a whole sale unit) it would come with one and all relevant information. They offered to 'cut and paste' some non official data and numbers, etc, and email it to me. Haven't gotten anything yet. Sent an email this morning.

Stay tuned

Potentially good news. I believe Kurt(the chemist) said he uses NOW glycerin. I have one bottle I bought from an all natural Health Food Store but have used it very sparingly.

 

[Cyrus Vap]

Trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, are there good reasons to be guarded about showing people a COA or purity data? I'm not business savvy enough to know.

 

[TTK]

Trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, are there good reasons to be guarded about showing people a COA or purity data? I'm not business savvy enough to know.

It probably has nothing to do with the Purity data, but other business related information that might be on the COA.