A pdib mod :>p

[upsetter21]

"No doubt whatsoever that this bypasses the hot spring. In an overcurrent condition (ie. short circuit) the spring may collapse, but the brass would remain and would potentially continue the circuit..."

with this, I completely disagree. One tenth, one twentieth of the weight of the battery collapses that brass in an instant. This is purely hypothetical; but, if the spring were to collapse, there is absolutely no way that that brass would continue to push the battery up against the positive contact.

Sorry, I have to defend myself. Maybe I'm more sensitive to these thoughts due to my trade: electrician. Yeah, I'm haunted by short circuits or otherwise unsafe electrical practices. I consider every battery to be hazardous. Some of our e-cig batteries have a very serious potential to discharge a lot of energy in a very short time frame. Notice the word "potentially". In my trade, we have a saying: "a limp ..... in the wind", to describe any sort of loose bare metal that could POTENTIALLY short a circuit.

I fully agree that the weight of the battery would in almost every case open the circuit if the hot spring collapses, but that brass shim would just be a limp ..... in the wind. Meaning with nothing to secure it, on a portable device (moving in all orientations), knowing that metal sheets change shape as ambient temperature changes, there's no way to be absolutely certain it would not work its way toward a short. Call it low-risk if you need to, but there's still a chance of a short by my examination. Momentary shorts with light contact can be the worst kind since they often arc, which could damage the protective sleeve on a battery or deposit hot metal bits from exploding brass, compounding the danger. Any unwanted discharge should be avoided. I just don't like to play with fire.

Here's why I respect arc'ing:
Electric arcs produce some of the highest temperatures known to occur on earth - up to 35000 degrees Fahrenheit, or four times higher than the temperature on the surface of the Sun. Intense heat from an arc causes sudden expansion of air resulting in a blast. Copper (of which brass is comprised) expands during an arc flash event at a factor of 67000 times within a few milliseconds.

I'm not saying there is enough energy in an 18650 to cause the sort of expansion I just described, but why screw around. I'm speaking up because I feel it would be irresponsible to not at least mention the risks involved.

Just to be sure I'm not spewing from the ...., I've taken another good look at the OP pics. In that particular installation, it looks pretty damn safe. Previously I did not notice that part of the shim was actually secured by the hotspring assembly. Still something doesn't sit well with me on this particular modification. I think time would be better spent trying to come up with a fuse.

Even if you totally disagree with me, thanks for allowing me to have my opinion. Cheers.

 

[pdib]

The only thing I disagreed with in your original statement was that the brass shim would hold the battery up after the spring collapsed. I certainly respect your experience and the point of view that stems from it. In my thinking, the whole question became moot when we (REO forum members) established that the spring probably wouldn't collapse, as it relies on current passing through it, not heat generated by a shorting battery. As for your concerns about the other aspects of the modification, thank you. Good points.

 

[jcalis1394]

The only thing I disagreed with in your original statement was that the brass shim would hold the battery up after the spring collapsed. I certainly respect your experience and the point of view that stems from it. In my thinking, the whole question became moot when we (REO forum members) established that the spring probably wouldn't collapse, as it relies on current passing through it, not heat generated by a shorting battery. As for your concerns about the other aspects of the modification, thank you. Good points.

My findings say the complete opposite. Remember when I asked for advice when I collapsed all 3 of my springs on a .4 ohm coil without having any shorts? Yup, it was because of the heat that the spring collapsed. I used the very same coil with the brass shim on for a full day, no problems at all. I tried different coils at the very least .4 ohms and they all collapsed the springs.

However, I do still believe the spring would not collapse anyways. As the current is being routed through the shim, the heat is not hitting the spring as hard as it would without it. So probably even if it shorts, the spring would not heat up to its collapsing point/fast enough to collapse.

That's what I concluded from the testings I did .

 

[upsetter21]

More from the electrician... does anyone remember the old screw-in type fuses found on houses built before the 1970's? If you live in an older house, with "nob & tube" style wiring, chances are you still have one of these fuse boxes.

Well, they aren't allowed in new installations because of one very simple reason: people tend to bypass them!

It's understandable. The lights won't turn on, and if it's determined a fuse is blown, how can you get the lights back on w/o visiting the general store? Easy, just grab a copper penny, and place it into the fuse socket and screw the bad fuse in. Now the circuit is complete, and the lights probably will go on again. But the circuit is totally unprotected!!! Many houses have burned down, and there is language added to the NEC to address this misuse. The fuse blew for a reason! Somewhere in the circuit, something was drawing too much current and the fuse opened to prevent fire. Trouble is, people tend to change the fuse or bypass it w/o troubleshooting why the fuse blew. If the overcurrent condition isn't cleared then fuse changes are futile, and bypassing is nothing but dangerous.

The hotspring in any mod is rated for a certain amperage. Modifying it would affect that rating. An unmodified hotspring has been developed in a lab and manufactured to tight spec's in order to have a very predictable outcome. The moment you mess with it, the outcome can become unpredictable.

So when the .4 Ohm coil was collapsing the hot spring, the rating of the hot spring must have been exceeded. I=E/r, then P=ExI... I=4v/.4ohm: That's 10amps! I would guess the modder never intended that sort of current. I'd be willing to guess that is the exact rating of the hot spring, as it's a very typical safety cut-off for consumer appliances. P=4v*10: That 40watts! That's pretty extreme if you ask me, and also totally unnecessary to enjoy vaping. It will raise your costs though, beating down batteries, blowing hot springs, and spending juice.

Another thing to consider is the resistance of the hot spring versus the shim. If the shim has the lower resistance, then the majority of current will travel through the shim. It most likely is less resistant than the spring because brass is a darn good conductor. The rating of the spring does not change... it still would collapse if 10amps went through it ALONE, but while shimmed it's not "seeing" the actual current, or in other words: unprotected.

Let's say you have a 20amp battery, and you want to be an extreme vaper. The safer alternative to bypassing the protection, would be to devise protection at a higher amperage. If you need 10 amps, then find a hot spring rated for 15 amps. That is much safer than bypassing the existing protection.

I wish I owned a REO now so I could really join in the fun and start modding away (how did I get here anyway?). I really believe a fuse assembly would be the way to go. I can imagine a delrin insulated housing, and a terminal welded to the mod inside. But the photos don't really allow me to judge how much space there is in that area.

I'm surprised I haven't seen any box mods utilizing an automotive blade type fuse. The form factor lends itself to the application. Of course this would cost more than a simple hotspring: the least expensive way to add protection. It would be really cool if there was a socket in your REO for such a fuse, since you'd be able to select your protection level by simply swaping the fuse.

 

[pdib]

Yes, we are pursuing the fuse option; and all agree that that is the superior path.

Jcalis. Your spring melted, pro'ly, not from the actual heat of the abutted battery, but from the amperage flowing through the spring. Your spring collapsed slowly; because said amperage was on the border/cusp of the spring's designed rating/softening point. The spring is like (as I understand it) the coil in your atty, it gets warm as its resistance generates heat from current passing through it. It, most likely, is an "8 amp" spring (say).

 

[jcalis1394]

So when the .4 Ohm coil was collapsing the hot spring, the rating of the hot spring must have been exceeded. I=E/r, then P=ExI... I=4v/.4ohm: That's 10amps! I would guess the modder never intended that sort of current. I'd be willing to guess that is the exact rating of the hot spring, as it's a very typical safety cut-off for consumer appliances. P=4v*10: That 40watts! That's pretty extreme if you ask me, and also totally unnecessary to enjoy vaping. It will raise your costs though, beating down batteries, blowing hot springs, and spending juice.

Well, to each their own. I've been fiddling with my coils trying to find my sweet spot, and whether it is 15 watts or 40, I'll have to adapt my gear to it. To give you specific numbers, the spring was collapsing while pulling around 8 amps, 27 watts.

Yes, we are pursuing the fuse option; and all agree that that is the superior path.

Jcalis. Your spring melted, pro'ly, not from the actual heat of the abutted battery, but from the amperage flowing through the spring. Your spring collapsed slowly; because said amperage was on the border/cusp of the spring's designed rating/softening point. The spring is like (as I understand it) the coil in your atty, it gets warm as its resistance generates heat from current passing through it. It, most likely, is an "8 amp" spring (say).

That's likely as well. The thing is it would only collapse after firing it for at least 3 seconds+. If I fired it for 2 seconds it wouldn't collapse. The battery, freshly charged on a .4 ohm coil starts pulling roughly 8.25 amps from the moment you fire it, so I'd think if that's the limit of the spring it'd start collapsing slowly but immediately. It didn't, which is why I thought it could have been that the spring reacts to a certain temperature as well. Beats me though, you guys are a lot more knowledgeable in that area than I am

BTW I toned it down back to .4 ohms and ditched the .3 ohm one, so now I got 10 wraps of 24g nichrome . Fresh battery gives me about 34 watts. Fruity flavors taste lively on this one .

 

[UKPaul]

Is this possibly why my springs were sagging / dropping slightly when venturing below 0.5 ohms.

 

[pdib]

Is this possibly why my springs were sagging / dropping slightly when venturing below 0.5 ohms.

Yeah, that's what I was saying to you in some thread, somewhere.

to be clear tho, I'm just making up that "8 amp" figure to illustrate. They seem to be sagging for people at around that level of current draw.

 

[upsetter21]

You REOnauts are actually pretty cool folks. Thanks for listening while I was on the soap box.

I've never squonked! Am I missing something? I do favor the A7 atty for dripping, yet I've always concerned myself with the A7's ability to utilize airflow control while on a GG collector tank. Seeing the zealous spirit of this thread makes me think I should try a bottom feeder someday.

 

[jcalis1394]

Yeah, that's what I was saying to you in some thread, somewhere.

to be clear tho, I'm just making up that "8 amp" figure to illustrate. They seem to be sagging for people at around that level of current draw.

I would say that's a pretty damn good guess. When a short happens the amperage goes crazy, hence why usually the spring glows, smells burnt and collapses completely. If we are pulsing over its limit but not the crazy amperage that a short produces, it makes sense that it'd slowly sag.

You REOnauts are actually pretty cool folks. Thanks for listening while I was on the soap box.

And thank you for giving that very thought out insight on this !

 

[pdib]

You REOnauts are actually pretty cool folks. Thanks for listening while I was on the soap box.

I've never squonked! Am I missing something? I do favor the A7 atty for dripping, yet I've always concerned myself with the A7's ability to utilize airflow control while on a GG collector tank. Seeing the zealous spirit of this thread makes me think I should try a bottom feeder someday.

yes. . . . . . . . . . . vaping heaven.








oh, and when you come over . . . . . don't bring that A7, it's been the culprit in many a hard short on a REO . . . . . . not safe

 

[dhomes]

You REOnauts are actually pretty cool folks. Thanks for listening while I was on the soap box.

I've never squonked! Am I missing something? I do favor the A7 atty for dripping, yet I've always concerned myself with the A7's ability to utilize airflow control while on a GG collector tank. Seeing the zealous spirit of this thread makes me think I should try a bottom feeder someday.

The A7 with a little tweaking is a great atty for mesh!

used to hate it but have been using it for the past week with great success, just need a little modding to make it a sort of a large phoenix

not too say I don't enjoy my RM2, best thing for cotton / ekowool / silica, but a bit too small for mesh

 

[pdib]

I used to drip vertical mesh all the time, phoenix (old style), Igo-L .. .. . . . . . . . . I'm over it. But, I love ya' just the same, brutha'.

 

[pdib]

Have you seen this? "cannon clippings"



and "the cannon"

 

[dhomes]

Have you seen this? "cannon clippings"



and "the cannon"

I still prefer mesh for some flavor p, that's just a matter of personal preference

& for some reason I'm enjoying quite a bit a 3 mm mini coil (5 wraps of k26) with ekowool I did yesterday on my RM2

maybe I just haven't gotten down my cotton technique quite right yet (I keep burning the cotton, I've tried VERY little, little, a lot, and a mega lot of cotton but for some reason on a 1/16" drill bit my wick just burns)

btw, you are the Master coiler man, have seen some of the weird coils you've been putting together around

 

[UKPaul]

Yeah, that's what I was saying to you in some thread, somewhere.

to be clear tho, I'm just making up that "8 amp" figure to illustrate. They seem to be sagging for people at around that level of current draw.

Yeh, just checked the ohms law calc, on a 4v charge, dropping below 0.5 ohms takes you over 8 amps.

 

[SeaNap]

so I have been thinking a lot about fusing, ever since I saw dhomes' silver plated screw. My initial though was a blade fuse, just like the ones in your car. These are cheap, widely accessable every single gas station sells them, and there are high end resettable ones. The problem was the receipticle. How do you mount a horizontal fuse in a verticle application? I set that idea aside and focused on some other types of fuses. I came back around to the blade fuse and did some googleing and I think I came up with a simple, cheap, solution.

I'm not good at explaining very well. This would use two blade fuse taps, one over the top, and one underneath. There would then be a metal plate soldered to each tap, effectivly sandwitching the fuse. Throw some shrink wrap over the ends of the fuse, and add a screw hole on the bottom plate and were in buisness. Hopefully the (crude) picture will give you a better idea. This would consist of the following items:
Blade fuse
2 x Blade fuse tap
small piece of shrink wrap
2 x aluminum plate (or copper or whatever metal we want)



What do you guys think, is this worth pursuing? Think this could work?

 

[pdib]

Well, now, I had been eyeing those "blade fuses" now and again . . . .. and the first thing that came to mind was, "I wonder how these fuses work, in relation to what we want". So, SeaNap, you are saying that, shape/format aside, these meet our criteria for blowing when we want and not blowing when we don't? They pop fast enough? How is the resistance on these type fuses? (If you don't know, I could grab one and temp it into my device's circuit, and meter it for v-drop.)

As to your design, is there a blade fuse tap on top AND bottom? And that's what carries the current to the plates? Are the plates also "filler" to take up space under the battery? And are they structural "stabilizers"?

It's definitely exciting!

 

[pdib]

What if I made a solid rectangle shape, with two brass pins "dowelled" in from opposing faces, and a slot down one edge. One would insert the fuse blades into the slot, and each blade would contact it's complementary pin. One pin goes up from the slot, one goes down.

 

[SeaNap]

TAP

Mini ATC Blade Fuse

Fuse data sheet