Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP

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we2rcool

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When it comes to vaping, it's relatively unknown. There's no hard data on how much of each chemical is absorbed when we vape an e-liquid with X amount of Y chemical or how the amount of each or a single chemical in the vapor will affect us. The data that we do have is from lab studies on lab rats and the rare cases of BO which falls back to the popcorn industry. That does not mean that the data holds no merit, it does, though the recommended exposures are based off of these studies from what I can tell.

That being said, the documented effects of each chemical, from available studies I've read, are generally in concentrated form. Meaning they are testing diacetyl, acetoin and acetyl proprionyl in their pure form; not in an e-liquid, not in a solvated blend. We may see this in the future, especially if AEMSA and other parties begin to play a larger role in the production and manufacturing of e-liquids, though it's not to that point just yet.

As far as the chemicals go, Acetyl Proprionyl (2,3-Pentanedione) caused proliferation of fibrous connective tissue in the walls of airways and projections of fibrous connective tissue sometimes extended into the air passageways and that repeated exposures to either Acetyl Proprionyl (2,3-pentanedione) or diacetyl can cause airway fibrosis in rats (source - CDC). Essentially, they can cause airway damage.


As an alternative comparison, drinking alcohol can cause liver damage, especially if consumption is excessive. It may damage the liver of one person in only a few years time, while another may not see the effects for 20-40 years of hardcore consumption; some may never see it at all. Everyone is different and the effects are going to be drastically different for everyone. This is not meant to downplay the seriousness of a potential issue, but provide a comparison of what happens over time.

There's a lot of unknowns with vaping and with each passing year we're learning more and more, albeit, on our own. With the help of Dr. Farsalinos, hopefully we'll learn more and more and yet, even more as he's been a big contributor to the industry as a whole and hopefully will continue to be for some time.

That being said, the documented effects of each chemical, from available studies I've read, are generally in concentrated form. Meaning they are testing diacetyl, acetoin and acetyl proprionyl in their pure form; not in an e-liquid, not in a solvated blend.

What available studies are you reading? The one's we've read are clearly NOT done with these chemicals in their "pure form" and the ppm (which is far less than pure) is clearly noted. A couple of examples:

Respiratory toxicologic pathology of inhaled ... [Toxicol Pathol. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

In rats, we investigated the toxicity of inhaled diacetyl at concentrations of up to 365 ppm (time weighted average), either as six-hour continuous exposures or as four brief, intense exposures over six hours. A separate group inhaled a single pulse of ~1800 ppm diacetyl (92.9 ppm six-hour average). Rats were necropsied 18 to 20 hours after exposure. Diacetyl inhalation caused epithelial necrosis and suppurative to fibrinosuppurative inflammation in the nose, larynx, trachea, and bronchi. Bronchi were affected at diacetyl concentrations of 294.6 ppm or greater; the trachea and larynx were affected at diacetyl concentrations of 224 ppm or greater...

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/103/1/169.full.pdf

Male C57Bl/6 mice were
exposed to inhaled diacetyl across several concentrations and
duration profiles, or by direct oropharyngeal aspiration. Effects of
diacetyl on the respiratory tract were evaluated by histopathology
and BALF analyses. Effects of
diacetyl on the respiratory tract were evaluated by histopathology
and BALF analyses. Subacute exposure to 200 or 400 ppm
diacetyl for 5 days caused deaths, necrotizing rhinitis, necrotizing
laryngitis and bronchitis.

Reducing the exposure to 1 h/day (100,
200, 400 ppm)
for 4 weeks resulted in less nasal and laryngeal
toxicity, but led to peribronchial and peribronchiolar lymphocytic
inflammation.

A similar pattern was observed with intermittent
high-dose exposures at 1200 ppm (15 min, twice a day, 4 weeks).
Subchronic exposures to 100 ppm (6 h/day, 12 weeks) caused
moderate nasal injury, and peribronchial lymphocytic inflamma-
tion accompanied by epithelial atrophy, denudation, and re-
generation.​

As an alternative comparison, drinking alcohol can cause liver damage, especially if consumption is excessive. It may damage the liver of one person in only a few years time, while another may not see the effects for 20-40 years of hardcore consumption; some may never see it at all. Everyone is different and the effects are going to be drastically different for everyone. This is not meant to downplay the seriousness of a potential issue, but provide a comparison of what happens over time.

Wethinks a better "alternative comparison" would be the affects & risks of alcohol on the liver to people that already have liver compromise....because most all of us already have some level of lung compromise from smoking. The worst part is that when we quit smoking, we feel & discern the relief from the absence of hot smoke & scorching tar...hence we don't feel whatever (lesser?/different?) compromise that we may be experiencing from vaping. That's why it's SO important to avoid the chemicals that have been shown to cause compromise.


With the help of Dr. Farsalinos, hopefully we'll learn more and more...

We feel it's essential to point out that Dr. Farsalinos work is not necessarily "conclusive" as to how these chemicals affect the lungs in humans or animals. Currently (as we understand it) the majority of his work is not on live animals at all, but rather 'cells in a petri dish'. More on that in the copy/post below.

We are NOT complaining or in any way criticizing the work of Dr. F., ClearStream or FA - it's all very good for what it is. But from what we've seen, it's almost all "comparisons to cigarettes"...and just because something can be proven to be safer than cigarettes, doesn't prove it is safe.

'Don't want to start a huge debate here (and we're not trying to discredit FA in any way) - but we do want to point out...

There are nearly 50 different/distinct cells in the lungs & bronchia (a VERY good overview on the anatomy & physiology of the lungs Anatomy, development, and physiology of the lungs : GI Motility online)...and they each are dependent on a myriad of factors within the lungs (and outside the lungs) for their health & function. ClearStream testing tests one type of cell (mammalian fibroblasts) in vitro (which literally means "in glass" - many times referred to as a "test tube" or "petri dish" test).

So while the tests tell us how one type of lung cell reacts to the specific vapor blend when the cells are outside of body, well, that's all it really tells us :( And just like in this study (that vapers typically assume "proves" that e-vapor is safer than cig smoke http://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/2013-romagna.pdf)...we see this very integral sentence at the end of the 'results section': These results should be validated by clinical studies. (as in, studies inside real lungs).

Again, we're not trying to discredit was is being done by ClearStream. These tests are valid and offer good information...but they are not conclusive, as they do not show what happens in actual lungs - and wethinks this is very important for people to know.

Because, (of course!) absolutely no in vitro test is proof of what will actually happen inside the body - and all researchers know this.
 
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vangrl27

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I feel like I'm picking on F.W, but know that I want transparency from all companies that knowingly sell to the E-cig industry.

But....F.W does seem like the most at fault (to me) because I 'think' that they got into the flavour business to profit from the booming E-cig industry. Unlike Capella, TPA & Loranns, they haven't been around for years supplying established flavours to many other industries. F.W started up when vaping got popular and they targeted the E-cig industry.

They should have done their research at the get-go and chosen raw material suppliers that clearly stated the ingredients, and they should have chosen flavours that weren't known to have inhalation risks. They should have known that even at less than 1% that it was still far above what was recommended, and they should have known that 1% becomes more than 1% when heated.

They could have created one of the most transparent E-cig flavour company in the U.S instead of what is looking like one of the least transparent and one that some people are now looking to avoid. Not a very good business plan if you ask me:(
 
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DeadbeatJeff

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I have to order some new flavors now. I think I am going to go back to Flavorart for sweets. I have used Nature Flavors before. They are claiming no diacetyl for most. However, I still cannot find info about other diketones present. Anyone know?

I just emailed them to ask about diketones. I will see. :)
almost everyone uses acetoin
 

Sdh

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I obtained this via email from a Hangsen sales rep:

Dear friend,

How are you doing? Hope everything going well with you

Here (name removed) from Hangsen take you 2 good news :)

1) Products Liability Insurance

* We are one of the few manufactures who got it. Accident and property damage caused by Hangsen E-liquids and E-cigarettes are insured now.
* It is a good reference for you, if you would like to buy local insurance.
 

we2rcool

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I have to order some new flavors now. I think I am going to go back to Flavorart for sweets. I have used Nature Flavors before. They are claiming no diacetyl for most. However, I still cannot find info about other diketones present. Anyone know?

I just emailed them to ask about diketones. I will see. :)

Lots of luck with that, my friend :(

From what we've read (and experienced ourselves), getting information from Nature Flavors (regarding chemical content) is like unto impossible.

Here's a Google search of the DIY forum (we searched for "Nature Flavors", diacetyl). It appears there's tons of posts about this issue that may give you the info you're wanting.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=diacetyl&as_epq=nature+flavors&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.e-cigarette-forum.com%2Fforum%2Fdiy-e-liquid&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=

Fwiw, we had horrible experiences with NF long before we started vaping (lack of disclosure, customer service nightmares, and refusal to identify specific ingredients when asked)....so as much as we wanted to try 'organic flavors', we didn't want to support them.

'Hopefully they'll reply you'll (and we'll) find out something specific.
 

tyjames

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smelly

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NF never discloses anything. They take the, "if you use it how we intend for you to use it doesnt matter whats in it" stance. I expressed concern that it doesn't matter how people are using it, consumers want to be informed. Period. Particularly about anything they are putting in their bodies. This information may happen to be of particular interest to vapors but that would simply be a fortunate coincidence.

They still didn't tell me. :) of course.
 

Sdh

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Regulations.gov
I know way off topic. However, proposed regulations have been submitted. The comment section is live for response.
It will take me awhile to sift thru the proposed document.
http://www.ofr.gov/OFRUpload/OFRData/2014-09491_PI.pdf

I still haven't heard from Natures Flavors. I will strike that one off the list as well. It feels like a Russian Roulette game with some of these flavor vendors/resellers.
 

we2rcool

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NF never discloses anything. They take the, "if you use it how we intend for you to use it doesnt matter whats in it" stance. I expressed concern that it doesn't matter how people are using it, consumers want to be informed. Period. Particularly about anything they are putting in their bodies. This information may happen to be of particular interest to vapors but that would simply be a fortunate coincidence.

They still didn't tell me. :) of course.

NF wouldn't tell us "specifics" even when we were buying their products for FOOD usage. All they would say was that the 'natural or artificial flavor' was certified organic (or allowed in certified organic). But anybody 'in the know' about organic certification for the 'flavors', knows that a "certified organic flavor additive" does not necessarily equal "healthy".
 

tyjames

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NF confirmed they are in the process of reformulating their line to be Diacetyl free and to not include any of the other 2 if that should be the case... They have said they are willing to show a MSDS.

Additionally If you ordered NF from ECX like me as little as a couple weeks ago I can tell you that some contain Diacetyl and that was confirmed by ECX. I threw out about 4 that I could smell it. Once I knew that one had it, it was easy to smell it in others and its a very strong smell you cant miss it, smells just like imitation popcorn butter. But ECX has noted they are planning to source from the new line that will not include any of the 3. Flavors like Malt, Cake Batter, French Vanilla, Irish Cream, some Cheesecakes and the like are the ones I knew had it.

Im looking forward to mixing more with NF and I have no problem with their customer service.

On a side note I got my order from TFA and I am confident by smell that none contain Diacetyl.. as far as the other 2 in question, TFA says whether it does or not right on the product pages. So kudos to them. I got my order pretty fast also. I really like Black Honey Tobacco. mmmmm
 

Jonathan Tittle

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What do you mean? That should be proof it doesnt contain Diacetyl and the like right?

MSDS's normally will state whether a chemical is included or not, though it generally does not state the concentration level, which is also what some are looking for. For that, a COA on the flavoring would also be needed. Take SilverCloudEstates as an example. So many have asked them about their flavorings, they have a warning statement / disclaimer on all flavors and a printable MSDS below each (see link below). They do not, however, include a COA with the concentrations.

Apple Pie Extract for Baking Beverages and Ice Cream - Silver Cloud Estates

For some, just knowing is enough, for others, we'd like to know how concentrated a dose is in there, especially with the potential requirements that may or may not be imposed by the FDA, if such chemicals will be allowed if regulations are passed.
 

smelly

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Calories for example: Label can say 0 calories as long as it contains less than 5 calories... or something like that. There are a few TFA offerings where the description states, "custard notes in trace amounts". If you pull the MSDS for the item - no DAA is shown.

I suspect this is also how NudeNic skates it. Not lying according to current industry accepted practices - just... bending the truth a bit.

Someone needs to step up and start putting out quality flavors with no DAA. I work in the flavor industry and can understand the spec sheet/ingredient list confidentiality thing. It's too bad suppliers just keep lying/bending the truth - In my opinion they are forcing our collective consumer hand to get heavy with them.

"Organic" and "all natural" are jokes, unfortunately. Things that should be good and fairly simple concepts have become nearly meaningless jibberish... but people buy it... just like custard juice ;)

I've been selling juice to friends and family, trying to start something bigger. It's tempting to hide the whole truth so your label can read, "0 Calories!" I read a VERY big juice vendor's unapologetic blurb about how their flavors contain acetyl and acetoin and they basically didn't care... went on and on to justify their ingredient choices, stating conjecture as fact and fact as conjecture... I can't believe we vape or trust some of the people/things we do.

I've had to reformulate stuff so many times to keep everything up to date DAA free. I'm honestly, pretty ...... off. Wish I could have my money back from every single flavor supplier and juice retailer I've ever done business with... Now I'm just being negative. I need to go to sleep. I miss the good old days when I thought VaporChef was DAA free. Now with FW pulling the rug out from everyone he's not even technically D free. Why do people have to be lying .....s? Ruining a potentially good thing again. What were we talking about?
 

Jonathan Tittle

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Someone needs to step up and start putting out quality flavors with no DAA. I work in the flavor industry and can understand the spec sheet/ingredient list confidentiality thing. It's too bad suppliers just keep lying/bending the truth - In my opinion they are forcing our collective consumer hand to get heavy with them.

There's plenty of quality flavors, though it boils down to as long as people are buying flavor X concentrate, they'll continue to make it. The reason is because of the flavor itself. Coming direct from Linda from TPA, you can't make a custard flavor without one or, in most all cases both Acetoin & Acetyl Proprionyl or Diacetyl; at least not one that is going to taste as it should. You can make variations easily and there are plenty of options out there to choose from and some do come very close, it just takes some testing (which I understand not everyone has the time for).

I spoke with Jake from NudeNicotine and he was honest and upfront about what they use. It would be nice to see it on their site too, but he was very forthcoming when I asked not too long ago. That's at least a move in the right direction. He could have said I don't know (hard to make that claim, since they make their flavorings) or just never respond to my inquiry.

There's really no excuse for FW though. I'm more so upset that when I inquired, they lied to me until proof came to light. Had that not came to light, the list I was provided with would have been accepted (even with some questionability) as fact.
 

we2rcool

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What do you mean? That should be proof it doesnt contain Diacetyl and the like right?

Sadly, incorrect. An MSDS is literally a Material Safety Data Sheet. It is created (basically) for the purpose of 'safe handling'.

It's purpose is not to reveal or list what specific chemicals are in any particular 'chemical soup' - whether that be Windex, artificial flavor, Ivory soap, or lawn fertilizer.

[COLOR="#00080"]What IS an MSDS? (from Wikipedia)

A material safety data sheet (MSDS), safety data sheet (SDS), or product safety data sheet (PSDS) is an important component of product stewardship and occupational safety and health. It is intended to provide workers and emergency personnel with procedures for handling or working with that substance in a safe manner, and includes information such as physical data (melting point, boiling point, flash point, etc.), toxicity, health effects, first aid, reactivity, storage, disposal, protective equipment, and spill-handling procedures. MSDS formats can vary from source to source within a country depending on national requirements.[/COLOR]​

Note: nothing about listing individual chemicals.


United States

In the U.S., the Occupational Safety and Health Administration requires that MSDSs be available to employees for potentially harmful substances handled in the workplace under the Hazard Communication regulation. The MSDS is also required to be made available to local fire departments and local and state emergency planning officials under Section 311 of the Emergency Planning and Community Right-to-Know Act. The American Chemical Society defines Chemical Abstracts Service Registry Numbers (CAS numbers) which provide a unique number for each chemical and are also used internationally in MSDSs.

Reviews of material safety data sheets by the U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board have detected dangerous deficiencies.

The board’s Combustible Dust Hazard Study analyzed 140 data sheets of substances capable of producing combustible dusts.[11] None of the MSDSs contained all the information the board said was needed to work with the material safely, and 41 percent failed to even mention that the substance was combustible.

As part of its study of an explosion and fire that destroyed the Barton Solvents facility in Valley Center, Kansas, in 2007, the safety board reviewed 62 material safety data sheets for commonly used nonconductive flammable liquids. As in the combustible dust study, the board found all the data sheets inadequate

From here Material Safety Data Sheet, MSDS requirements - Learn More, MSDSWriter.com - the OSHA Hazard Communication Standard (we have no idea how valid or up-to-date this is, but it seems to match the more detailed requirements on similar sites):

What Is An MSDS?

A Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) is used by chemical manufacturers and importers to convey both the physical hazards (pH, flashpoint, flammability, etc.) and the health hazards (carcinogenicity, teratogenicity, etc.) of their chemicals to the end user.

MSDSs are a critical component of the United States Occupational Safety and Health Administration's (OSHA) Hazard Communication Standard (29 CFR 1910.1200(g)). This standard mandates that workers have a right to know what hazards are associated with the chemicals they use in the workplace. Both manufacturers of chemicals and employers with chemicals in their workplace, must be in compliance with this regulation as it is the most often cited violation by OSHA, with fines of more than $70,000 per violation per instance.

The OSHA MSDS format has the following required categories that must be on every MSDS:

Section I. Manufacturer's Name and Contact Information
Section II. Hazardous Ingredients/Identity Information
Section III. Physical/Chemical Characteristics
Section IV. Fire and Explosion Hazard Data
Section V. Reactivity Data
Section VI. Health Hazard Data
Section VII. Precautions for Safe Handling and Use
Section VIII. Control Measures

For the full text of OSHA's MSDS requirements, click here.

The American National Standards Institute (ANSI) approved an alternative format and published a standard Z400.1-1993, "American National Standard for Hazardous Industrial Chemicals-Material Safety Data Sheets-Preparation."

The 16 sections of an MSDS that are prescribed by the ANSI standard are as follows:

Section 1. Chemical Product & Company Information
Section. 2. Composition/Information on Ingredients
Section. 3. Hazards Identification
Section. 4. First Aid Measures
Section. 5. Fire Fighting Measures
Section. 6. Accidental Release Measures
Section. 7. Handling and Storage
Section. 8. Exposure Controls/Personal Protection
Section. 9. Physical and Chemical Properties
Section. 10. Stability and Reactivity
Section. 11. Toxicological Information
Section. 12. Ecological Information
Section. 13. Disposal Considerations
Section. 14. Transport Information
Section. 15. Regulatory Information
Section. 16. Other Information

While this is a recommended format, it is important to note that at a minimum, the OSHA required categories must be addressed in the MSDS as these are legally enforceable.

So we can see it doesn matter how any individual company writes theirs (or pays someone else to write them), what matters is if the proper data is included for safe handling (typically in the workplace). So specific chemicals are NOT required to be revealed or listed - unless they meet or exceed certain "exposure limits".

And since diacetyl, acetoin, and acetyl propionyl do not yet have "official" exposure limites for safe handling in the workplace (let alone safe exposure limits for direct inhalation via vaping), we cannot depend upon MSDS's to reveal the information we NEED TO KNOW to be able to make an informed choice.

Someone posted that FW posted on FB (not reliable), that they/FW weren't required to list diacetyl on an MSDS (or was it CoA?) unless the percentage was over 1%. One percent diacetyl creates an e-liquid with THOUSANDS of parts per billion...and the NIOSH recommended exposure limit is 8-31 ppb.
 
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