Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP

[vangrl27]

the math is beyond me, but talking directly to Enthalpy it seems that the Butterscotch may have had more than 1% anyway. I attached the lab result when I contacted them.

"It is my understanding that a 10ml e-juice containing only 10% flavouring (butterscotch) contained 1,797 ug/ml of diacetyl. My question is, would that amount to more than 1% diacetyl in just the concentrated flavour? Or in other words, had just a 10ml concentrated flavour been sent to you, rather than a 10ml e-juice, and the same amount of diacetyl was found, would that indicate more than 1% diacetyl in the concentrated flavour?"

Enthalpy
"Assuming the Diacetyl is coming from the flavoring – which it probably is. If the flavoring is 10% and the concentration is 1,797 ug/mL than in the 100% flavor it would be 17,797 ug/mL…assuming a density of 1 (this is an incorrect assumption but will be used for demonstration purposes) the amount of Diacetyl in the flavoring is ~1.8%"

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

the math is beyond me, but talking directly to Enthalpy it seems that the Butterscotch may have had more than 1% anyway. I attached the lab result when I contacted them.

"It is my understanding that a 10ml e-juice containing only 10% flavouring (butterscotch) contained 1,797 ug/ml of diacetyl. My question is, would that amount to more than 1% diacetyl in just the concentrated flavour? Or in other words, had just a 10ml concentrated flavour been sent to you, rather than a 10ml e-juice, and the same amount of diacetyl was found, would that indicate more than 1% diacetyl in the concentrated flavour?"

Enthalpy
"Assuming the Diacetyl is coming from the flavoring – which it probably is. If the flavoring is 10% and the concentration is 1,797 ug/mL than in the 100% flavor it would be 17,797 ug/mL…assuming a density of 1 (this is an incorrect assumption but will be used for demonstration purposes) the amount of Diacetyl in the flavoring is ~1.8%"

1800 ug/ml would be 0.0018/ml x 10 = 0.018 = 1.8%, so: yeah

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

1800 ug/ml would be 0.0018/ml x 10 = 0.018 = 1.8%, so: yeah

that's a ridiculous amount of a chemical that is proven to be dangerous in the single digits ppm

I mean, diacetyl is def dangerous at, say 10ppm (being EXTREMELY generous), and apparently they have flavors that are nearly 2% diacetyl.

wow just wow

 

[smelly]

The "safest" supplier I've seen is Flavourart. TFA is honest but I can't even use their dang peanut butter anymore. IMO they have THE BEST peanut butter. I know I wont be buying it again... Not until they ask for their supplier to reformulate... But I'm just one vaper.

I appreciate the honesty but I care more about potential health risks than I do about, "This caramel doesn't taste JUST like Werthers". I wanna see "safer" alternatives for all flavors.

I say we boycott any juice retailer using more than 15% flavoring (first we need to define "1%") and boycott any juice or flavor retailer using any DAA. Oh and anyone using raw tinctures as juice ingredients... cause I'm paranoid about those as well. Who's coming with me? Jan?

 

[IIKEVOII]

Tinctures? And im done with FW entirely. So FA will be my new source of flavor

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

The "safest" supplier I've seen is Flavourart. TFA is honest but I can't even use their dang peanut butter anymore. IMO they have THE BEST peanut butter. I know I wont be buying it again... Not until they ask for their supplier to reformulate... But I'm just one vaper.

I appreciate the honesty but I care more about potential health risks than I do about, "This caramel doesn't taste JUST like Werthers". I wanna see "safer" alternatives for all flavors.

I say we boycott any juice retailer using more than 15% flavoring (first we need to define "1%") and boycott any juice or flavor retailer using any DAA. Oh and anyone using raw tinctures as juice ingredients... cause I'm paranoid about those as well. Who's coming with me? Jan?

They do have a very good peanut butter, though should the reformulate, the chances are high that you're not longer going to like what it becomes because the peanut butter taste is enhanced by the Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl that are within it. I've tasted random peanut butter flavors that are just basic, no DAA, and they are bland, unexciting and often have more of a chemical taste than those with two of the chemicals.

As for boycotts, so you're wanting to boycott freedom of choice? Some consumers do not mind Acetoin or Acetyl Proprionyl (those that are informed, not speaking about those who have no idea what's in their e-liquids). I know some flavors I vape have one or both. They're not all day vapes, but it's my choice to vape them, as it is yours to not . I'm not sure I follow on tinctures? You're wanting to boycott in-house made flavorings that are often made directly from natural ingredients?

 

[smelly]

Yes! That's it! Nail on the head! I want to boycott freedom of choice! No more hassle having to pick and choose things you like or dislike - Someone should pick it for us! Let them decide!

(note* I'm kidding here but that has already sort of happened. Example: If I want a custard vape I have to accept DAA... Oh wait, FA has one that is for vaping... hmm... so my choice is... one... from FA.)

...I'm being sarcastic. I want better choices (period). If there is a petition that encouraged vapers to get used to lower flavor percentages and no DAA flavor profiles - I'd sign it. That being said, it's your body, do what you want I say, but that doesn't mean I wont express my concern or contest to misinformation about the risks, or ask for safer flavors. I've got my own self to worry about. What I'm trying to say is, if we collectively want safer flavor choices then we need to be proactive and make a statement about it. Is that a boycott? I don't flippin' know? But it's something.

I still use my "bad" ingredients too. My American palate still demands it. I've been reducing flavor percentages and vaping bad flavors less and less. As a result, 9/10 times if I try and vape a flavor at a percent I used to like - it automatically makes me queasy and/or all I can pick up on are the chemically over-flavored notes.

I think it would be a no-brainer to not use any flavor molecule that has substantial inhalation risk at such low %s, for vaping. Apparently it isn't a no-brainer, that or juice sellers mostly care about the $... A lack of genuine concern and self-policing is going to fuel the fire for BIG BROTHER to regulate.... And I really don't want them to have anymore fuel.

Tinctures I dislike because I do not know how they have been "cleansed" or at what level that food item contained things like DAA. Or acetaldehyde... or ketones... or, or, or. I've seen what falls out of a tincture. Even a certified "all-natural-organic" (jibberish) one AND after being filtered through some very expensive equipment. There is a lot of "stuff" in that-thar-liquid. I'll take a synthed strawberry flavor that contains very particular chemicals over a strawberry tincture any day of the week. Flavor wont be as "good" but will be "safer" according to the number of chems I'm rolling the dice against. My palate will eventually get used to the flavor anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPqdZJNO7dg

 

[HeadInClouds]

(note* I'm kidding here but that has already sort of happened. Example: If I want a custard vape I have to accept DAA... Oh wait, FA has one that is for vaping... hmm... so my choice is... one... from FA.)

Just as an aside, if you want FA's most custard-like flavor, that's Vienna Cream (tastes like Boston Cream Pie filling, or eggnog, around 2.5%), not their Custard (which is almost lemony and goes best with fruit).

 

[wllmc]

HIC is right.... FA custard is good but far from the custard you want when you want a custard vape. I just bite the bullet once in awhile and pile on the capellas vanilla custard in large amounts. then i get my fix and Im good for a few weeks lol. the first person to make that without D/A/A will be a rich man. I'll buy it by the gallon

 

[1stimer]

I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to read through all of this thread right now.

1. What are the big 3 no-no's?

2. What flavorings are confirmed to have them?

Maybe a good recap for newbs to this thread as well.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

HIC is right.... FA custard is good but far from the custard you want when you want a custard vape. I just bite the bullet once in awhile and pile on the capellas vanilla custard in large amounts. then i get my fix and Im good for a few weeks lol. the first person to make that without D/A/A will be a rich man. I'll buy it by the gallon

There's quite a few flavors that can be pulled together to create a custard-like flavor without the use of either of the three chemicals. It won't be an exact replica for a flavor such as CAP's Vanilla Custard, but you can get it pretty close. You simply have to look a little deeper into the flavor combinations and do it from scratch, which may involve mixing 3-6 flavors together to get it where you'd like it to be.

...I'm being sarcastic. I want better choices (period). If there is a petition that encouraged vapers to get used to lower flavor percentages and no DAA flavor profiles - I'd sign it. That being said, it's your body, do what you want I say, but that doesn't mean I wont express my concern or contest to misinformation about the risks, or ask for safer flavors. I've got my own self to worry about. What I'm trying to say is, if we collectively want safer flavor choices then we need to be proactive and make a statement about it. Is that a boycott? I don't flippin' know? But it's something.......

There are numerous flavor options on the market already that are "safe" in terms of not having DAA in them, if you DIY. When it comes to e-liquids from vendors, it's simply a matter of asking if they don't already make note of it on their website. That said, the whole custard flavoring issue, where a true custard flavor is desired, short of creating your own and mixing a lot of flavors together to get it where you want, one or both of the A chemicals have to be present. Vienna Cream isn't bad, but it's still a bit of a long-shot.

FA's custard isn't horrible, but it's not to my liking. I have a 30ml bottle sitting in my flavor cabinet that's barely touched. I tried it at 5%, 8%, 10% and 12% and then stopped. I just didn't like the flavor profile given as a result of mixing. Vienna Cream isn't bad, but it's still a bit of a long-shot.

As for the FDA, IMO, even if an e-liquid contains either of the three chemicals, I don't see that being too much of an issue for them given tobacco cigarettes have long had Diacetyl in them and nothing is done to prevent those from coming to market. Unless they target those three chemicals directly and force them off the market entirely, thus forcing flavor manufacturers to stop using them entirely, I don't see them going away. Perhaps there may be limitations to the concentrations, but if they force one market sector not to use them and allow them in another similar sector, that'd open them to a lawsuit and they are already going to have enough on their hands just trying to pass what they proposed.

 

[HeadInClouds]

Vienna Cream isn't bad, but it's still a bit of a long-shot. FA's custard isn't horrible, but it's not to my liking. I have a 30ml bottle sitting in my flavor cabinet that's barely touched. I tried it at 5%, 8%, 10% and 12% and then stopped.

If you're really interested in smooth, creamy flavor without DAA, you should try again with FA. Your 5-12% testers all overshot the recommended (3%-ish) single-flavor percent. If you didn't try Vienna at 3% or less, you haven't experienced it yet - flavor gets sharp and less creamy past that.

I challenge anyone who says you can't get creamy flavor without those chemicals to try FA Vienna Cream at 2.5% (optionally with 1% of FA Irish Cream for a coffee version, FA Caramel for a very sweet version, or any of the FA vanillas for a vanilla version).

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

If you're really interested in smooth, creamy flavor without DAA, you should try again with FA. Your 5-12% testers all overshot the recommended (3%-ish) single-flavor percent. If you didn't try Vienna at 3% or less, you haven't experienced it yet - flavor gets sharp and less creamy past that.

I challenge anyone who says you can't get creamy flavor without those chemicals to try FA Vienna Cream at 2.5% (optionally with 1% of FA Irish Cream for a coffee version, FA Caramel for a very sweet version, or any of the FA vanillas for a vanilla version).

Oh I know you can get a somewhat creamy vape without the use of those chemicals, though if you're looking to replicate, that's where the issue lies. Some are very accustom to the flavor that one or both of the chemicals provide and don't want to vape anything else. That would be the custard fans (I used to be, though I've found that I like CAP's VC less and less, especially after 4-6 weeks of steeping).

FA's Vienna Cream is very good, no doubt. FA's Custard, well, I prefer a more realistic custard and lemon is not a main component in a true custard (speaking from a cooks perspective); it's more of a variation or play on the actual thing. I'm picky, so feel free to call me out on it . I've ate custard since I was about 2-3 years old in various forms and still enjoy it today. I just can't tolerate the citrusy notes unless they are supposed to be a part of the e-liquid, like lemon, orange and other citrus vapes.

I've not tried Irish Cream; it's on the list, but I've never truly liked the liquor or the coffee version, so I've been hesitant to try it. FA's Caramel is my favorite though. It's deep and somewhat rich.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to read through all of this thread right now.

1. What are the big 3 no-no's?

2. What flavorings are confirmed to have them?

Maybe a good recap for newbs to this thread as well.

1). Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl

2). It varies from vendor to vendor. FlavourArt has an entire line that is free of all 3. TPA notes which flavors do and do not, though in some cases, they simply don't know. TPA keeps their list pretty well updated but there's a small chance that some flavors not marked do contain them, as has been the case in the past. FlavorWest, currently, is open; they stated they were Diacetyl-Free, though it has been redacted and now any of their flavors could be challenged until we see the COA's posted (which is no guarantee that they are indeed free of the chemicals, they could simply be below FDA thresholds). Hangsen is one that I am working on. I've been provided with mixed answers. Some state that some do have Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl, others state that coming from their lead chemist, none of these chemicals are used. Based on taste, I feel that some of them DO.

 

[we2rcool]

There's quite a few flavors that can be pulled together to create a custard-like flavor without the use of either of the three chemicals. It won't be an exact replica for a flavor such as CAP's Vanilla Custard, but you can get it pretty close. You simply have to look a little deeper into the flavor combinations and do it from scratch, which may involve mixing 3-6 flavors together to get it where you'd like it to be.

There are numerous flavor options on the market already that are "safe" in terms of not having DAA in them, if you DIY. When it comes to e-liquids from vendors, it's simply a matter of asking if they don't already make note of it on their website. That said, the whole custard flavoring issue, where a true custard flavor is desired, short of creating your own and mixing a lot of flavors together to get it where you want, one or both of the A chemicals have to be present. Vienna Cream isn't bad, but it's still a bit of a long-shot.

FA's custard isn't horrible, but it's not to my liking. I have a 30ml bottle sitting in my flavor cabinet that's barely touched. I tried it at 5%, 8%, 10% and 12% and then stopped. I just didn't like the flavor profile given as a result of mixing. Vienna Cream isn't bad, but it's still a bit of a long-shot.

As for the FDA, IMO, even if an e-liquid contains either of the three chemicals, I don't see that being too much of an issue for them given tobacco cigarettes have long had Diacetyl in them and nothing is done to prevent those from coming to market. Unless they target those three chemicals directly and force them off the market entirely, thus forcing flavor manufacturers to stop using them entirely, I don't see them going away. Perhaps there may be limitations to the concentrations, but if they force one market sector not to use them and allow them in another similar sector, that'd open them to a lawsuit and they are already going to have enough on their hands just trying to pass what they proposed.

Did you REALLY say this --->?

When it comes to e-liquids from vendors, it's simply a matter of asking if they don't already make note of it on their website.

You have already proven that doesn't work - do we need to point you to your past posts (let alone those of others)?

(Edited out 2 pictures - "on second thought")​

 

[ImperfectFuture]

Dude, we have more things to worry about right now than your rant on all this. Perhaps it's better to focus on the ability to keep vaping, and have your favorite vendors stay in business, than your continuing to rant on this subject. I'm with Jonathan, and think we not so cool anymore.

(I'm sure this will be followed by myriads of analogies to swan with head in sand).

Really, we get it (the rest of the population outside if we2cool). You not that cool compared to problems with FDA, or do you want to help them?

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

You have already proven that doesn't work - do we need to point you to your past posts (let alone those of others)?

For some, no it doesn't. For others, and I will use Kent/Clark from Nicoticket as a prime example, they *are* letting their customers know. The information is now on his site. If one well-known vendor can step to the plate and add this information and provide customers with such, ALL vendors are capable of doing it. Just because a few refuse, claim they don't know or blindly mix, does not mean that we all do.

As it becomes more of a pressing issue, more vendors will step up or they will be isolated. It's happening now and from the looks of things, will continue.


Thus far, FlavorWest has been the only vendor to outright lie to me. TPA & FlavourArt are very open and honest about their flavorings. Hangsen, I'm waiting on as there's some confusion (language barrier it seems). Other flavor vendors that I have spoke to are quick to say yes or no as well. Silver Cloud Estates being one of them; they even post MSDS's on site which detail whether Acetoin (which is the primary one they use) is in there or if it's not. Looking at their MSDS's, you'll see what's there.

 

[Sdh]

Dude, we have more things to worry about right now than your rant on all this. Perhaps it's better to focus on the ability to keep vaping, and have your favorite vendors stay in business, than your continuing to rant on this subject. I'm with Jonathan, and think we not so cool anymore.

(I'm sure this will be followed by myriads of analogies to swan with head in sand).

Really, we get it (the rest of the population outside if we2cool). You not that cool compared to problems with FDA, or do you want to help them?

This is not a FDA page. This is about safety related to diketones. We have a right to discuss this.. Vendors who do not disclose these facts are the ones who will not survive in this industry. They are at fault-not the buyer (vapor-er).

 

[we2rcool]

Dude, we have more things to worry about right now than your rant on all this. Perhaps it's better to focus on the ability to keep vaping, and have your favorite vendors stay in business, than your continuing to rant on this subject. I'm with Jonathan, and think we not so cool anymore.

(I'm sure this will be followed by myriads of analogies to swan with head in sand).

Really, we get it (the rest of the population outside if we2cool). You not that cool compared to problems with FDA, or do you want to help them?

Read the title of the thread. This thread is about these chemicals. This thread is not stopping anyone from focusing on whatever vaping-issues are important to them in whatever thread they choose. There are dozens (if not hundreds) of threads already focused on'ability to keep vaping'. This one's about the 3 most common chemicals that are inhalation risks.

 

[we2rcool]

For some, no it doesn't. For others, and I will use Kent/Clark from Nicoticket as a prime example, they *are* letting their customers know. The information is now on his site. If one well-known vendor can step to the plate and add this information and provide customers with such, ALL vendors are capable of doing it. Just because a few refuse, claim they don't know or blindly mix, does not mean that we all do.

As it becomes more of a pressing issue, more vendors will step up or they will be isolated. It's happening now and from the looks of things, will continue.


Thus far, FlavorWest has been the only vendor to outright lie to me. TPA & FlavourArt are very open and honest about their flavorings. Hangsen, I'm waiting on as there's some confusion (language barrier it seems). Other flavor vendors that I have spoke to are quick to say yes or no as well. Silver Cloud Estates being one of them; they even post MSDS's on site which detail whether Acetoin (which is the primary one they use) is in there or if it's not. Looking at their MSDS's, you'll see what's there.

JT

When it comes to e-liquids from vendors, it's simply a matter of asking if they don't already make note of it on their website.

we2

You have already proven that doesn't work - do we need to point you to your past posts (let alone those of others)?

JT

For some, no it doesn't.

That is the point of the BS Meter post - your statement was untrue and you know/knew it was untrue, but posted it anyway. Finding out if these chemicals are present is NOT "simply a matter of asking".

'Nuff said.