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Adding flavor to premixed pg/vg/nic

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by Anise, Oct 1, 2018.

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  1. JCinFLA

    JCinFLA Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 21, 2015
    Starting with 15% flavoring and then diluting it down to an acceptable strength for her if/when it's too strong...only serves to use up more of the OP's premixed base to do it. She could also end up with a much larger amount of that mix than she wanted. Also, many people don't have the luxury of having as much PG, VG, and nic base, as others do. So working backwards to dilute, rather than adding tinier amounts of flavoring if/when needed...isn't always possible.

    For example, take your own post above: "be carefull with mint(menthol)... even 2% is pretty strong... be carefull with sweeteners... marshmallow flavor at 5% can overtake many fruit flavorings"

    But...she's supposed to use 15% flavoring when making her mixes, according to what you suggested. There are many more flavorings, like those above, that would need lots of dilution to get them down to an acceptable strength or to not be overpowering.

    You said that the dilution method works for you. That's great! However, I can't count on both hands and feet the number of DIY newbies who've posted about how horrible their testers and/or first mixes have been. They're totally frustrated with DIY and ready to give up already. When we've asked what they've used to make them, most of them have been single flavor mixes, made with a % of that flavoring...that's been way too high.

    Of course, it's the OP's choice how she wants to do it though.

    ETA: Forgot to comment on this part - "everytime you add flavor you have to wait a day or two for steeping and ratio of nicotine and pg change"

    Really? Many of us use Bill's 100DTT (or something similar) when we first try a new mix. While doing it, we adjust the flavoring(s) as we do the test. We don't wait days for "steeping and ratio of nicotine and pg change". We can do the whole test and end up with a modified recipe that we know tastes good...sometimes in just minutes, sometimes a little longer. We then use that recipe when making a regular sized batch.
     
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  2. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    I'm with @JCinFLA on this. Flavoring UP is a lot easier than diluting down, period. And even with premixed base which surely will make it a bit easier, you may wind up with far more juice than you wanted, not to mention that if a mix is overflavored, the only way to find out if you like it versus it being just unpalatable is by using up more of that base, and you may wind up with more to chuck, having used up more of that more valuable premixed base.

    Starting small is the way to go, and there is (some limited) evidence that once you have started the steeping process, adding a pre steeped small mix or even a portion of it while you vape the rest, MAY decrease steeping times overall in some flavors.

    I did not appreciate the value of a small tester AND the value of having premixed base especially until later in the mixing process, and I tend to mix on the smaller side these days when I'm using new stuff, I have found it somewhat less taxing overall and I tend to make less costly mistakes.

    I think it can take some time for new mixers to get this. I mean, even my first single flavors I was using too much volume, honestly.

    Anna
     
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  3. Zaryk

    Zaryk Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 25, 2018
    Ohio
    While i agree, adding more flavor is easier than diluting with pre-mix. I will have to disagree that the pre-mix is more expensive or valueable than flavorings. 1000ml of pre-mix costs me just under $9 to make, and costs $20 to buy the same amount premade. 1000ml of flavoring, on average, would be roughly $100.
     
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  4. JCinFLA

    JCinFLA Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 21, 2015
    I want to clear something up, if I may. :) You are agreeing with what I wrote in my post right above yours.

    However, I didn't say that "flavoring up" is a lot easier than diluting down. My reasons really had nothing to do with which method is easier, if one actually even is. :)
     
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  5. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    That is correct, you didn't @JCinFLA . I used to find diluting down WAY worse, but that was before I started using a premixed base, which, well, I bet it's not that much harder in that case.

    Anna
     
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  6. dc99

    dc99 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 17, 2014
    earth
    Heres an idea, let us know what you want to mix and what flavor brand and some of the people that really mix might have some good suggestions before you waste a bunch of juice and cash. For instance, if you mix 15% of FLV anything you will run out of base before you get to a vapeable level.
     
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  7. Janusz

    Janusz Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 22, 2018
    Illinois, USA
    What is Bill's 100DDT ???
     
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  8. Janusz

    Janusz Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 22, 2018
    Illinois, USA
    Why it is easier to add more flavor?

    For me it is much easier to add 1ml of premix (my pg/vg will stay the same) than add 0.15ml of pg based flavorings and additional benefit is that this method do will not reduce nicotine strenght (amount of nicotine affect taste of e-juice) and change pg/vg ratio....

    For me it is easier to add 1ml of pg/vg premix even with syringe with needle point and scale with fractions of ml... if your recipe is multi flavor if you want to make very small amount (10ml) you will have to calculate minuscule amount of additional flavorings... let say 0.15 ml of flavor one ....0.2ml of flavor two... and 0.05ml of flavor three... you will have to use three clean and dry syringes... or wash and dry single syringe after adding each flavor... In syringes I use there is always some flavor that attach to inside syringe...

    I know weight method is the best... yeah... as long as you make 60ml or bigger batches of juice... not 10 or 15ml ....how much weights 0.05ml of pg based flavoring? please do hold your breath when weighting it... your exchale can affect it...

    All the drawbacks of dilluting too strong flavor apply to regular big batches we make but for small/test batches I see no problem... if you end up with 1 or even 2 ml of extra juice I see no problem... even if came not to my liking... 2 ml of premix cost maybe $0.20

    If you add flavoring you also do not have guaranty that your juice will come as a winner.
     
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  9. Zaryk

    Zaryk Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 25, 2018
    Ohio
    For me, it is easier to add flavor because it is easier to keep track of the flavor percentages and replicate it afterwards.

    When adding more base, it makes it harder for me to determine exactly how much flavoring percentage is in it without breaking out the mathematical equasions, which are not my friends in the first place.

    I am not worried if I dilute out my nicotine by a fraction of a percent or so, i can't tell the difference in it so it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

    Plus, a lot of the time I find less flavor more enjoyable, so starting there just makes sense. Too much flavor makes me nauseous a lot of the time.
     
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  10. JCinFLA

    JCinFLA Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 21, 2015
    It's Bill's Magic Vapor's 100 Drop Taste Test. In a nutshell...it's a method of making a very small representative sample of an eliquid, test vaping several drops of it, then tweaking it and test vaping a little more, etc., etc...until you get the taste that you're seeking from the mix. By taking notes on any/all changes you make while doing it, you end up with a modified recipe that you can then use for whatever size batch you want to make. It's called the 100 Drop Taste Test because each 1 drop of the liquid ingredients (PG, VG, nic base, and flavorings)...represents 1% of the total mix.

    For example: Let's say someone who vapes finished eliquid at a ratio of 50PG/50VG, at 6mg nic, wanted to do a 100DTT on a recipe called NannerBerry. The nic base they have is 100mg/mL in a 100% VG base.

    (All flavorings are PG based)
    TFA Strawberry Ripe - 9% = use 9 drops
    TFA DX Banana Cream - 6% = use 6 drops
    TFA Cotton Candy - 2% = use 2 drops
    100mg/mL Nic base in 100% VG = use 6 drops
    Plain VG = 44 drops
    Plain PG = 33 drops
    Original test sample = 100 drops

    They give it a good shake and test vape a couple drops to see how it is. If it maybe needs a little more Strawberry Ripe to them...they add another drop, make a note of +1 beside the Strawberry Ripe drops, and test vape it again. Maybe they decide they like the Strawberry Ripe now, but it's got a slight "bite" to it, so they add 1 drop of Cotton Candy and put +1 next to Cotton Candy. Test vape a couple drops. If that does it and they like it...they're done. Their new recipe would be as follows, and they can use an eliquid calculator to determine the amounts of each ingredient for whatever size batch they want to make, as usual.

    TFA Strawberry Ripe - 10%
    TFA DX Banana Cream - 6%
    TFA Cotton Candy - 3%

    That's a very oversimplified run through of a test, but that's the gist of how it's done. Many people who quit smoking quite awhile ago, and have healed taste buds, will taste test a new recipe starting with lower % than shown IN that recipe...because 1) everyone's tastes/likes are different, 2) you can't remove flavoring if it's too much. When I started DIY my "buds" were still a little whacked, so I used the % shown when I'd do a 100DTT on someone else's recipes. Now though, I'll usually do it starting at about 1/2 of the % shown for each flavoring, and work my way up if necessary.

    Here's a link to Bill's Blog where you'll find how he explains it. It's the 7th topic down.

    Bill's Magic Vapor's blog | E-Cigarette Forum
     
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  11. Janusz

    Janusz Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 22, 2018
    Illinois, USA
    Thank you.:) This method is maybe good for very patient people but for me it is too burdensome. :unsure:

    Some flavorings are very harsh and need steeping to mellow... using this method without steeping would sometimes create impression of too much flavoring...and for other flavors opposite... it is not possible translate recipe from drops to percentage...depending on viscosity drops can be different in size... sure this method would work if you scale the same method to size of final product but dropping thousand times is not fun.

    Some people can have very sophisticated taste abilities but most of long time smokers taste buds are not so discerning .... I and probably many other people do not care about perfect award winning e-juice... most are happy with average frutty/desert cheap e-juices from local vape shops or online sellers... If I will use 10% of total flavorings or 15% it does not matter much for me... I can add couple of drops of flavoring shake it well and after a day or two my juice is as good as that I was buying from vape shop... if it is too strong I will dilute it with 1 or 2ml of PG/VG mix and it is as good as the juice I bought from Vape Wild...

    My intention is not discourage experienced DIY persons from striving for perfection but convince some people that making tasty e-juice do not have to be "rocket science".... if you can make lemonade you can make e-juice and if you make your lemonade too strong add a little more water and it will be more than palatable...
     
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  12. Janusz

    Janusz Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 22, 2018
    Illinois, USA
    OK I made 10 ml with 6% sweet strawbery, 6% ripe strawberry and 3% sweet cream... but taste was too strong... so I diluted it with 1ml of Mix... taste great! So I want 30ml with the same percentage and after mixing them I will add 3ml of mix... Great so now I want 100ml with the same percentage plus extra 10ml... simple enough for me :)
     
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  13. Zaryk

    Zaryk Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 25, 2018
    Ohio
    I'm thrilled to hear you found a method that works for you, just like I have.:thumb:
     
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