After the new laws...

[elitenuts]

A little confused on what life will be like when all the new rules go in effect -

1) Will there still be local vape shops?

2) As far as juice. will there still be a good varietly from various companies or will there only be big tobacco branded juice?

3)How are devices (mods, tanks, etc...) affected?

4) Will nicotine still be available to make your own juice at home?

Thanks!

 

[Baditude]

We're all rather confused at this point. It's hard to determine what will actually occur over the next two years. There are multiple lawsuits against the FDA; there are a couple of ammendments in the works which may or may not help our cause. Only time will reveal what the vape industry will be like after 2018.

Aside from the federal FDA, local and state governments are also placing their own restrictions and excessive taxes on vaping.

Vaping Regulations Are Now in Effect, Here’s What that Means for Vapers

1) Will there still be local vape shops?

A few may be lucky enough to survive, but it will be extremely difficult for the mom & pop type shops to remain viable if the current regulations take full effect.

Vape shops employees will be working under extremely difficult restrictions. They can't say that vaping will be safer or healthier than smoking, they won't be able to assist customers with issues or make adjustments to their gear, or make coils for RBA's.

2) As far as juice. will there still be a good varietly from various companies or will there only be big tobacco branded juice?

With each flavor and each nicotine strength (including zero nicotine) costing at least $3000 to apply for FDA approval (and there is no guarantee after submitting the approval process that they will be approved), companies will no longer be able to afford to offer hundreds of flavors. Most of the e-liquid companies are small time businesses and can't afford the FDA approval process. Instead of hundreds of flavors, expect to see only a few flavors available for sale. Many manufacturers will just fold.

The FDA's loopholes for e-cigarettes are going up in smoke

3)How are devices (mods, tanks, etc...) affected?

No new products (no innovation) after August 2016. If it wasn't on the market prior to that date, it won't be allowed for sale within the United States. US Customs will seize products shipped to the US from outside the US.

Each vaping product made or available for sale between 2007 and 2016 will have two years to submit an extremely expensive application for FDA approval (some say up to one million dollars; again, no guarantee the product will be approved) for sale after 2018. Only the larger China manufacturers will have the money to submit for these applications. I would expect even these companies to downsize their product lines.

The ciga-like manufacturers will be "grandfathered" (tobacco companies like Vuse and Blu) because these products were available before the predate of 2007.

4) Will nicotine still be available to make your own juice at home?

Not a chance, at least not legally. My guess it will be available on the black market if you can find a source.

 

[sparkky1]

I think your big immediate concern should be to reach out to your state officials and see what's on the agenda and let them know you and 2,500 of your friends our single issue voters

Vote No on Prop 56 | Stop the Special Interest Tax Grab

 

[seminolewind]

Nicopure's suit with the FDA is focusing on some pretty big flaws in the rules, such as if the FDA can call 0 nicotine juice and the atomizers "tobacco related" since there's no tobacco in them. Much of their reasoning, too, is a bit low on documentation or studies to back it up. As for the smaller shops , it may be biased to have the testing fees so high that they have been put out of business. So there's some chance that some of the rules will be taken back. These points that Nicopure brings up are valid. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[sofarsogood]

A little confused on what life will be like when all the new rules go in effect -

1) Will there still be local vape shops?

2) As far as juice. will there still be a good varietly from various companies or will there only be big tobacco branded juice?

3)How are devices (mods, tanks, etc...) affected?

4) Will nicotine still be available to make your own juice at home?

Thanks!

If the FDA rules stand as written and if they use their discretion as negatively as seems likely the only products worth using that will be available in august next year will be what ever you've got in your stockpile.

500,000 mg of nic costs $275 including glass storage bottles. At my present rate of use that would hold me for 20 years if nic can last that long in the freezer. If I smoked for the next 20 years it would cost me $60,000 if it didn't kill me sooner than that. The total cost of my stash, atomizers, mods, and nic, is $650. It's very likely going to last 10 years and might last 20. Three months of smoking cost me more than that. It's so little money for so much time why not just do that and then ask what's the government going to do.

It seems like the government doesn't care what the grownups do. They have to make sure the kids smoke because if they don't the Tobacco Age is over and a trillion dollars a year world wide, of easy money, turns into vapor.

 

[DC2]

A little confused on what life will be like when all the new rules go in effect -

1) Will there still be local vape shops?

2) As far as juice. will there still be a good varietly from various companies or will there only be big tobacco branded juice?

3)How are devices (mods, tanks, etc...) affected?

4) Will nicotine still be available to make your own juice at home?

Thanks!

There are a lot of factors involved, so you'll get a lot of answers, which may all be wrong...

--Will any of the lawsuits be successful and how will the regulations change?
--Will HR2058 or any future bills change the landscape?
--If the regulations stand as written how strict will the FDA be in their enforcement efforts?

Assuming the worst case scenario, here are my honest answers.
And they may still be wrong...

1) Will there still be local vape shops?
Not a chance

2) As far as juice. will there still be a good varietly from various companies or will there only be big tobacco branded juice?
There won't be any "juice" available as far as for refilling.
Only proprietary closed systems will be available, if even that.

3)How are devices (mods, tanks, etc...) affected?
You'll probably have to get them shipped to you from overseas.
There are various issues that might arise with that...

--Customs confiscation on occasion
--Credit card companies/Paypal not allowing such transactions
--Shippers refusing to deliver such items

None of these opinions are worth a hill of beans right now though.
=)

 

[Stosh]

I disagree with some of the points made so far, as mods / power supply / variable power devices and toppers will be available for use with that "other substance that must remain unnamed". The FDA would have a problem in banning devices advertised and made for the "other stuff", as it is legalized in more states.

That said, nicotine will still be the choke point. For a juice manufacturer, or mom & pop shop, local or on-line, or even DIY, the regulations appear to be written to make it cost prohibitive.

The real wildcard in all our speculation is how the many lawsuits turn out, and how crazy the state / local regulations become.

 

[seminolewind]

I think what's being worked out in court is whether anything not derived from tobacco can be deemed tobacco related. Like 0% nic juice, mods, atomizers, etc. Yes you can say it is to vape but you can also say the devices are made to vape 0% nicotine. Yes the FDA did deem 0 nic as a tobacco related item. The argument is that they can't. (Really?) Another is that the cost of testing is biased making wealthy people are the only ones that can afford it.

If you're worried about flavor, you can buy it at bakery supply stores or sites.

 

[Frenchfry1942]

I have seen a lot of thoughts of hope, and a lot of thoughts of hope get squashed.

I used to be a PAD smoker, switched and lowered my nic to zero. I do like the DIY, rebuilding and it is a hobby now. Anyway, I really believe in vaping as a smoking cessation technique. It worked for me.

I guess if getting away from all the bad chemicals in tobacco is the intention, nic is probably the best thing to buy first.

 

[ENAUD]

I think what's being worked out in court is whether anything not derived from tobacco can be deemed tobacco related. Like 0% nic juice, mods, atomizers, etc. Yes you can say it is to vape but you can also say the devices are made to vape 0% nicotine. Yes the FDA did deem 0 nic as a tobacco related item. The argument is that they can't. (Really?) Another is that the cost of testing is biased making wealthy people are the only ones that can afford it.

If you're worried about flavor, you can buy it at bakery supply stores or sites.

Nobody can afford to prove that open container e-liquid is safe to use and beneficial to the general public health, if used with every possible combination of mods and atomizers. That is de-facto ban because it is an insurmountable task cost wise and time wise.

The sad thing is, it may come down to the judge having to side with the FDA because the powers they were granted were so wide sweeping, that it is in fact their prerogative to enact the deeming as written, no matter how wrong the consequences might be. Not a matter of could they, but a matter of should they? We feel like they should not have done this, and any rational and sane person would / could possibly be expected to say, no, they should not have done this, but the fact IS, that they did indeed do it. It is the law of the land. A law we may very well be stuck with for a very long time.

 

[seminolewind]

Yes but the question is does the FDA have the legal right to deem everything aside from the nicotine as a tobacco related product? Open containers of 0 nicotine fluid are benign to most people.

 

[ENAUD]

Yes but the question is does the FDA have the legal right to deem everything aside from the nicotine as a tobacco related product? Open containers of 0 nicotine fluid are benign to most people.

I feel we are saying the same thing, I look at it this way, how are the products being marketed? What is there intended use? How in the world can you even define intended use? With the approach that the FDA has taken, we might as well be a bunch of cave men sitting around a cold rock screaming, "fire BAD!", while people are dying from hypothermia. It almost defies logic that this is even happening, yet here we are.

 

[OlderNDirt]

As previously stated, it is all a guess at this point. So here is mine:

The FDA knows the regulations as written will not fly. It intentionally went over the top to put the fear into the industry and vaping community. Those regulations will be whittled away, probably to a point still above what they actually wanted and at some level accepted by the masses. Simply put, they wanted a 5, proposed a 10, and settled for a 7. And everybody involved with vaping will celebrate the victory in taking "the system" to task and "saving the industry." Everybody walks away happy and vaping will survive, but............

There will be fewer choices in gear and juice.
There will be less advancement in the development of vaping devices.
What is available will cost much, much more....
And with the addition of taxes, vaping will become much more costly then smoking and other cessation methods.
Vaping will be restricted exactly like smoking is which may become more restricted then it is now.
All of which will lead to stagnation of the vaping explosion or possibly even a decrease in the vaping population.

Bottom line, that is my best guess for an optimistic outcome and that still sucks!

 

[bnrkwest]

Since no one knows the future for us vapers I suggest you stock up on what you like on the basics, Nic for DIY, mods with replaceable batts and rebuildable toppers. Better safe than sorry at this point since no one really knows how bad it will get.

 

[seminolewind]

I feel we are saying the same thing, I look at it this way, how are the products being marketed? What is there intended use? How in the world can you even define intended use? With the approach that the FDA has taken, we might as well be a bunch of cave men sitting around a cold rock screaming, "fire BAD!", while people are dying from hypothermia. It almost defies logic that this is even happening, yet here we are.

Yea the same thing. I think oldndirt is pretty close to the truth. But, really, the new stuff coming out is not from this country. China's prices are good. LOT'S Of make your own, and replaceable stuff. I'm not worried about prices for us seasoned vapers..

The only thing the FDA can bona-fidely do is restrict nicotine. But how would BT like that? Oh yea they can restrict nicotine for those not grandfathered in, LOL. I'M Not going to fret over taxes either. In 35 years of smoking, I've paid my share.

 

[skoony]

That said, nicotine will still be the choke point. For a juice manufacturer, or mom & pop shop, local or on-line, or even DIY, the regulations appear to be written to make it cost prohibitive.

I am trying to understand why nicotine will be a choke point.
It is a raw material and not under the purview of the deeming regs.
The FDA's reasoning that it might in fact consider 0 nic juice a tobacco
product is because one might reasonably assume nicotine might be
added at some time,some where and,under such circumstances as
the FDA determines on a case by case basis. Doesn't this imply that
nicotine would have to be available?
Regards
mike

 

[Capt.shay]

I am trying to understand why nicotine will be a choke point.
It is a raw material and not under the purview of the deeming regs.

Yet

They are going to get around to it, assuredly. It is the choke point because the other ingredients are readily available via non-vaping industries.

 

[skoony]

Yet

They are going to get around to it, assuredly. It is the choke point because the other ingredients are readily available via non-vaping industries.

Nicotine was readily available before vaping. Actually vaping may have saved
the production of nicotine. Nicotine was used extensively as a insecticide.
I believe its use as a insecticide is now banned in the US. At least in is
no longer used. Other countries have discontinued use or are heading
in that direction. It doesn't appear that USP grade nicotine ever been
in short supply at any time during the phenomenal growth of the e-cigarette industry.
So far I haven't heard of any shortages due to the deeming regs caused by
hoarding by DIY'ers.
Regards
Mike

 

[DC2]

Nicotine was readily available before vaping. Actually vaping may have saved the production of nicotine. Nicotine was used extensively as a insecticide.

I am pretty sure there are no nicotine-based pesticides approved for sale in the United States.
And it's not like old nicotine that WAS used as a pesticide is somehow grandfathered.

I'm not sure where your logic is going here.

 

[skoony]

I am pretty sure there are no nicotine-based pesticides approved for sale in the United States.
And it's not like old nicotine that WAS used as a pesticide is somehow grandfathered.

I'm not sure where your logic is going here.

My point is the availability of nicotine will not be a choke point. It appears
to be readily available and is a raw material.
See my post #16
Industrial grade nicotine is not suitable for human consumption.
At one time apparently there was a lot of that. However if one
can make industrial grade nicotine one has the know how to make
USP grade nicotine with out to much more difficulty and effort.
There wasn't any US manufacturers of liquid nicotine prior to 2013
yet the market expanded with out a hiccup. Belgium,Ireland,China
and India are but a few producers of liquid nicotine. Is all this production
for the vaping industry?

I just can't see nicotine becoming a choke point.
buy liquid nicotine - Google Search
There appears to be a plethora of sources.
Regards
Mike