After the new laws...

[Capt.shay]

My point is the availability of nicotine will not be a choke point. It appears
to be readily available and is a raw material.
See my post #16
Industrial grade nicotine is not suitable for human consumption.
At one time apparently there was a lot of that. However if one
can make industrial grade nicotine one has the know how to make
USP grade nicotine with out to much more difficulty and effort.
There wasn't any US manufacturers of liquid nicotine prior to 2013
yet the market expanded with out a hiccup. Belgium,Ireland,China
and India are but a few producers of liquid nicotine. Is all this production
for the vaping industry?

I just can't see nicotine becoming a choke point.
buy liquid nicotine - Google Search
There appears to be a plethora of sources.
Regards
Mike

No one is saying we are going to run out or that there is a shortage. What we are saying is eventually the FDA is going to close the loop hole. The nicotine is the only actual thing (other thatn NET's) that is a tobacco product. They will get around to heavily regulating it and probably sooner than later.

 

[DC2]

No one is saying we are going to run out or that there is a shortage. What we are saying is eventually the FDA is going to close the loop hole. The nicotine is the only actual thing (other thatn NET's) that is a tobacco product. They will get around to heavily regulating it and probably sooner than later.

My personal opinion is that they will declare that free-roaming nicotine is a drug.
Unless of course it is used to make a tobacco product requiring a PMTA.

(It goes without saying that nicotine is fine in FDA approved Big Pharma products)

This loophole seems (theoretically) already closed to me.
But we shall see.

EDIT: By the way, the declaration that free-roaming nicotine is a drug will also crush this idea that synthetic nicotine, or eggplant-based nicotine, is some kind of answer to our problems. It will also make it super easy to crack down in customs as well.

 

[skoony]

No one is saying we are going to run out or that there is a shortage. What we are saying is eventually the FDA is going to close the loop hole. The nicotine is the only actual thing (other thatn NET's) that is a tobacco product. They will get around to heavily regulating it and probably sooner than later.

But the FDA considers it a raw material such as tobacco leaf. As a raw material
the FDA has no restrictions on the growing or sale of tobacco leaf.(states may have
their own restrictions on sales perhaps) Under your original assumption you said all
other things are readily available from non-vaping sources. From what I can gather
liquid nicotine in general was readily available for non-vaping uses. If purchased
as raw material for personal use it would hardly different than buying a battery.
As most of the liquid nicotine we use is being manufactured over seas and was
only manufactured over seas as little as three years ago I just can't wrap my head
around the choke point theory.
Regards
Mike

 

[OlderNDirt]

Is it that difficult to conclude that the government can and will do whatever they want to achieve their desired goal regardless of said goal's absurdity?

 

[englishmick]

My point is the availability of nicotine will not be a choke point. It appears
to be readily available and is a raw material.
See my post #16
Industrial grade nicotine is not suitable for human consumption.
At one time apparently there was a lot of that. However if one
can make industrial grade nicotine one has the know how to make
USP grade nicotine with out to much more difficulty and effort.
There wasn't any US manufacturers of liquid nicotine prior to 2013
yet the market expanded with out a hiccup. Belgium,Ireland,China
and India are but a few producers of liquid nicotine. Is all this production
for the vaping industry?

I just can't see nicotine becoming a choke point.
buy liquid nicotine - Google Search
There appears to be a plethora of sources.
Regards
Mike

I believe that nicotine is used extensively in the production of cigarettes. Every cigarette has to contain the exact amount of nic designated for the brand. Since they use a natural raw material where the nicotine content can vary they add or remove nicotine as required.

So nicotine is used in vast quantities outside of vaping, which is why there was a plentiful supply available when vaping came on the scene. I don't know whether it was available in VG/PG, more likely the cigarette industry uses pure nic in their processes.

If I'm right about that, then obviously they can't abolish the use of nicotine. But I have a feeling it would be quite easy for them to designate it for licensed commercial sale only, like they already do with higher concentration nic, so the likes of us wouldn't be able to buy it. And they could use the deeming to stop our current suppliers from mixing it with VG and selling it to us. And they could do that without disturbing the supply chain to the tobacco companies.

That's my best guess.

 

[skoony]

@englishmick My understanding of the process of precisely controlling
the nicotine in the tobacco involved not only adding nicotine if needed
but removing excess nicotine if needed. From what I garnered from
my recollection it is a in house process and I am unaware of any
excess nicotine being available through those channels. There were
no companies manufacturing liquid nicotine in the US prior to three
years ago. I would assume if BT was selling excess nicotine it would
be considered a manufacturer. Does BT process the tobacco they use
for cigarette sales in the US over seas?
Regards
mike

 

[daviedog]

I can wrap my head around large 'sin' taxes on nico, F2F purchasing, licensing, permitting. At all 3 levels of govt..
If some above think nico will always be around & here is why.......................................
So Be it.
Abstractions aside, it's a choke point..

 

[Eskie]

If I'm right about that, then obviously they can't abolish the use of nicotine. But I have a feeling it would be quite easy for them to designate it for licensed commercial sale only, like they already do with higher concentration nic, so the likes of us wouldn't be able to buy it. And they could use the deeming to stop our current suppliers from mixing it with VG and selling it to us. And they could do that without disturbing the supply chain to the tobacco companies.

This. No different than regulating alcohol. If you have a valid commercial license, you can order and use pure ethyl alcohol however you want in your manufacturing business. As a consumer you cannot. Same can apply for nicotine. Any solution over x mg/ml can only be sold to a valid commercial license holder, not a consumer.

 

[seminolewind]

Someone on this site brought up an interesting point. The FDA may ask for a lot just to get some of what they ask for.

The Nicopure lawsuit is about just what we're talking about. Products that are actually tobacco related, and products that are not. They feel that the FDA does not have the right to deem non tobacco products as tobacco related. Think of all the things out there that are not tobacco related but deemed so. Like 0 nic liquid. 0 nic means no nicotine. Nicotine is not regulated. Nicotine is probably the only chemical they can pick on and make people believe that it's evil. Nicotine has to be definitely grandfathered in.

 

[seminolewind]

Who exactly is the judge?

 

[ddirtyvapes]

I disagree with some of the points made so far, as mods / power supply / variable power devices and toppers will be available for use with that "other substance that must remain unnamed". The FDA would have a problem in banning devices advertised and made for the "other stuff", as it is legalized in more states.

That said, nicotine will still be the choke point. For a juice manufacturer, or mom & pop shop, local or on-line, or even DIY, the regulations appear to be written to make it cost prohibitive.

The real wildcard in all our speculation is how the many lawsuits turn out, and how crazy the state / local regulations become.

The logic here is flawed though because technically many of those other devices are presented as being tobacco vaporizers. We can't really discuss it any further and even this might be pushing it, but again my point is that they are marketed as leaf-tobacco vaporizers.

IMO the only reasonable answer right now to the FDA is to assume the absolute worst and realize, as has been said, that such an assumption means almost nothing until we see what happens with all of the factors in play.

 

[Str8vision]

A little confused on what life will be like when all the new rules go in effect -

1) Will there still be local vape shops?

The full impact of the FDA's deeming won't be felt until the end of 2018, I suspect many vape shops will survive up to that point. Since local vape shops won't be allowed to make/sell house juice their main revenue stream will disappear. Couple that with the prohibition against them helping customers set up gear, teach how to build/maintain RBAs or properly use gear they've bought and it's doubtful very many will survive. Vape shops will be confined to selling items that are readily available online for less money, I doubt that will prove to be a sustainable/viable business model. Larger cities will maintain local shops for convenience purchases but the smaller towns likely lose theirs. Tobacco shops, truck stops, head shops and perhaps convenience stores will fill the void but they'll carry the same overpriced plastic throwaway garbage they do now.

A little confused on what life will be like when all the new rules go in effect -


2) As far as juice. will there still be a good varietly from various companies or will there only be big tobacco branded juice?

The FDA estimates a single application for product approval will cost between 300 and 400 thousand dollars. Each flavor, nic level offered for each flavor and PG/VG ratio available for each flavor will require a separate application. This means that a single juice that is offered in four nic levels and three different PG/VG ratios could cost millions of dollars in application costs alone. For a vendor like Ahlusion the cost of applications for their "current line" of flavors and options could exceed several hundred million dollars with absolutely no guarantee any would be approved. To make matters even worse the FDA itself doesn't know what is required to pass or fail an application, they're making it up as they go. What financial institution would loan huge amounts of capital to a company like Ahlusion under these conditions? Now you see what these companies face, most are just hanging on in hopes one of the pending lawsuits prevail. At the very least come 2019 the variety of juice available will be much smaller than it currently is and the nic/PG/VG ratio options will be slimmer. The price for juice may rise sharply to cover the extreme cost of applications and compliance.

A little confused on what life will be like when all the new rules go in effect -


3)How are devices (mods, tanks, etc...) affected?

Mods, attys and even drip tips face the same FDA product application process as juice. Nothing new is allowed on the market without first passing the approval process. Manufacturers will need to prototype the item, pay a few hundred thousand dollars having it scientifically evaluated, generating a product application and then waiting a year or three for the FDA's decision before offering that item on the market. At the very least this will stifle any future innovation, only well financed large companies will be able to compete under these conditions. Most people (including myself) will simply try to obtain illegally imported items giving rise to a new black market, yet another the U.S. government will have created through reckless, draconian legislation.

A little confused on what life will be like when all the new rules go in effect -

4) Will nicotine still be available to make your own juice at home?

Yes. Although liquid nic must pass the same expensive FDA approval process nothing in the FDA's rules would forbid or restrict its sale to "adults" but its price may eventually rise to cover application/compliance costs. When it comes to liquid nic, it's state governments you really need to be worried about. In fact, as bad as the FDA's deeming is it will -pale- in comparison to what many state governments will soon do, just look at PA, Utah and Arkansas and that's just the beginning. The good news is states aren't likely to do anything that throwing lots and lots of your hard earned money at won't solve. Smart money is on stockpiling liquid nic while it's inexpensive and easily obtained. This single act divorces government from the equation entirely rendering their reckless, draconian rules and taxes meaningless to your world.

 

[phephner]

Who exactly is the judge?

Amy Berman Jackson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Baditude]

Who exactly is the judge?

The District Court of Washington D.C. consolidated Nicopure's and The Right to be Smoke-Free Coalition's actions and gave the FDA until August 16 to respond to the lawsuits. The Judge A.B. Jackson will be hearing the parties on October 19, 2016.

 

[seminolewind]

THankyou!

 

[Stosh]

The logic here is flawed though because technically many of those other devices are presented as being tobacco vaporizers. We can't really discuss it any further and even this might be pushing it, but again my point is that they are marketed as leaf-tobacco vaporizers.

IMO the only reasonable answer right now to the FDA is to assume the absolute worst and realize, as has been said, that such an assumption means almost nothing until we see what happens with all of the factors in play.

And if the FDA is successful in the lawsuits, a change in labeling / marketing may be required. In a couple months, after the election I'll know what's legal in my state.

Took a ride the other day to see what's shaking in the shops in my area. Many have closed already, others are stocked up to their eyeballs in vaporizers marketed as useful for both products.

Agreed, assume the worst.....after all assume makes a ### out of u and me...

 

[tj99959]

Yes but the question is does the FDA have the legal right to deem everything aside from the nicotine as a tobacco related product? Open containers of 0 nicotine fluid are benign to most people.

A gallon of PG is not deemed a tobacco product (I mix it with Ivomec to de-worm dogs) Hell, even BIOTENE would become a tobacco product!!
A gallon of VG is not deemed a tobacco product (I use it to make soap)
A 10ml bottle of flavoring is not deemed a tobacco product (I use it to make candy)

 

[seminolewind]

A gallon of PG is not deemed a tobacco product
A gallon of VG is not deemed a tobacco product
A 10ml bottle of flavoring is not deemed a tobacco product

True, but the FDA is in a suit to question these very things since they think they are tobacco related.

 

[tj99959]

True, but the FDA is in a suit to question these very things since they think they are tobacco related.

The funny thing is that all three of them are already FDA approved products.
Believe it or not, even NICOTINE has been a FDA approved product for years!!

The question in my mind is it 'only when those substances are mixed together' that they need to be deemed?

 

[Haktuspit]

After the new laws...

... get thrown out in court where are we having the party?

We're all prepared for the worst, I still have a little hope for the best.