All my used carto's are TOAST !!

[Katya]

You are absolutely right. Nobody will invest a penny in redesign or more research thinking that their days on the market are numbered. I'm sure that all vendors are worried about their very survival right now. They don't even know if they'll be able to sell their current inventories.

In the meantime, we should be very careful how we vape, be vigilant about not overheating the cartos and not letting them get dry at any time. If your premiums burn no matter how careful you are, go back to the regular cartos; I never had any problems with them. And pray that the FDA will come up with a decision; sooner rather than later.

 

[skydragon]

You are absolutely right. Nobody will invest a penny in redesign or more research thinking that their days on the market are numbered. I'm sure that all vendors are worried about their very survival right now. They don't even know if they'll be able to sell their current inventories.

In the meantime, we should be very careful how we vape, be vigilant about not overheating the cartos and not letting them get dry at any time. If your premiums burn no matter how careful you are, go back to the regular cartos; I never had any problems with them. And pray that the FDA will come up with a decision; sooner rather than later.

Hi Katya,

The vendors are investing in the premium carts, new juices, new PT's and batts, etc. etc. so they must not be too afraid of their survival and if they can do that, they can surely invest in a safer carto. From what has been said, it could be pretty easily done for a few pennies more.

I honestly don't know how I can be any more careful with how I vape. I have never vaped one dry and now three out of six were filled only once. Not refilled, but just filled. I don't puff, puff, puff on it. I let it rest. (cause it gets tired )

 

[miss MiA]

What a nice post.

Thanks Katmar. And btw I really respected your treatment of this subject on the other thread and of peripheral matters as well.

And thanks to everyone who comes together for discussion from diverse areas of this ECF globe we all occupy! (Well duh self, that's what we're all doing all the time when we're here whether deliberate decision or not; sheesh, I can't even speak a straight sentence anymore! But y'all know what I mean. )

Wellllll. I just pulled a 901 atty out of the "Why not/who knows what I might need someday" region of my stash. Had only tried it very briefly amongst many other things in earlier days, just to make sure it worked at all. Must say... Yum!! I do like this. Very clean taste and feel!

 

[Henry ∇ George]

i don't even think it is the burned poly-fill. i think it is drying out your system from inhaling too much PG, trying to appease a 20 year addiction. there are a lot of excuses and disinformation here. a lot of "user error" and "need to modify" and "need to spend" ... and lot of dysfunctional product with dishonest information being pushed to go along with a lot of under-engineering and inadequate material.

 

[miss MiA]

Hi Henry George, sounds like it's been quite a rocky road, I'm sorry to hear that. With the particular types of things you're feeling and wondering about, e.g. PG sensitivity, you'd probably find this area interesting if you haven't visited it already:

Health, Safety and E-Smoking - E-Cigarette Forum

 

[Randyrtx]

Katmar, thanks for persevering with this. I agree that it's a problem that needs to be addressed. I don't know what the solution is, but it's one I think the suppliers had better hammer home to the manufacturers.

I was sorry to see the other thread get closed, though it was probably for the best due to the amount of denial going on. At least here, it will only be subject only to ECF moderators, not any one supplier.

I've examined a few of my own carts, and have found them to be the same as the pictures posted here. I've also looked at a few of the low-resistance premium carts, and they looked far worse, to the extent that I absolutely won't use them again.

Please don't let the attitudes of a few members of the "fan club" taint your opinion of the entire group. The vast majority, as you've seen a glimpse of from those who've posted here, are extremely nice and helpful.

 

[Drozd]

Ok,
Someone asked me my opinion on the burnt cartomizers and my take on it in pm..and I had been following this thread so I figured I'd just post it here and maybe expand on it some..
My take on the recent discussion of cartos...

First off let me say that they arent my preference on a stock battery...I just in general don't like the flavor on them nor the airflow...I use them on an eGo battery (which is a lower voltage battery than the KR8, so they burn cooler) with an adapter (under the cone) or at 6V

Now about the burning...I think that it comes down to the individual cartos and the user, and luck of the draw..
I think that the burning could be caused by the wire and tube in the inside being off center which can cause a hot point between the wire and the shell which would cause a dry spot and subsequently "bake" that hot spot from both the center and the outside resulting in a burn..I think that the "premium" cartomizers are worse because they have a lower resistance and burn hotter (so they make more vapor)...and this is why the one company changed the airflow on some of their batteries (to hopefully cool them better with increased airflow)...

Now I use the majority of my cartos differently...I vape them at 6V, I take off the cap and o ring first thing, and I use a stainless tip with a wide opening to vape through (so I'm getting more air in there to cool it, just through the other direction), when I open them I always center the wire as best I can (but I also fill them with a syringe and can sort of feel if it goes all wonky and crooked in there(so I poke at my prefilleds too))...this certainly detracts from their easier to use argument..

I've been tearing apart a couple to see since this issue has been being pressed...I've yet to get one that has shown any significant signs of burning...worst has been some dark stains on the inner wraping...and I think I might attribute that more to a wet white fabric touching a metal wire thats been heated and cooled repeatedly and it's just the crud and scale that would otherwise build up much like it does on the coil of any other atomizer...

Do I take an unreasonable # of extra steps..probably..
are other people going to do the same as I do and open em before vaping..probably not..
do I feel safe in my usage of them...reasonably so..
Do I feel that people have a valid concern about the safety of Cartomizers..you betcha..
Are these concerns being unfairly blown off and not adressed...yup
will I continue to use Cartomizers...yeah (because I don't like burning up atties at 6V and the cartos are more throw away in that regard)...but the cartos I use will not be V4L cartos and certainly not premiums (I have high hopes for the vapor9 cartos though..they managed to rase the performance to that of premiums without lowering the resistance (it's actually .1Ω higher))

Further, I'll expound on my tale of that "family" company and concerns being blown off.. the big argument I see constantly is that the KR8 is so much easier and that you don't need to fiddle (read mod) and it works right out of the box, and you don't need to top off as much...well, the trend I see is then advice on how to "fix" airflow issues (ie toothpicks and silicone rings made from carto condoms)..keeping the cartos wet and topped off...removing the cap and vaping through a carto condom with a hole punched through it so it's easier to fill and top off and keep cool on the lips...so if those arent "mods" how the heck do you classify them?...
and as for the fanbase.. hmm if I throw enough free stuff at someone and anything that is faulty I promise to replace (with your next order) people are going to think my customer service is great too...for me I look at it a different way...do I get the correct stuff in a speedy amount of time, how long can I expect things to work properly before I even have to ask about replacement, and communication...then the way the replacement return policy works and is handled, free stuff is last on my list..
And statements that you spend more money than anyone else don't concern me a fig..if I can't get a consistently performing hardware from one week to the next or worry about whether it's a new part or old part or new increased airflow or old airflow or whether my new cartos work on my old PT (or new PT) or not..
At one point there was a user here that had a sig line about that company that stated something along the lines of "they're the walmart of the PV world, the product is crap...but people love them and keep coming back because of their return policy"....I'm starting to see that now.

 

[Katya]

Thank you, Drozd. With all my heart.

 

[Katmar]

Thank you Randyrtx and Drozd for your posts.

People need to be aware of the dangers of the burning carts on the k4808.

There very well may be ways to avoid it by jumping through hoops while under water riding a bronco, but that is simply not enough. They need to be made safer.

The scary thing is that by the time you taste burny stuff, you have already been inhaling burnt poly fiber. This is serious. Burnt poly fiber releases toxins. I do not know how much of that we inhale, nor the impact it MAY have on us.

Please help us keep this issue front and center for the safety of all of us and of those to come to us for advice.

 

[Scottbee]

The scary thing is that by the time you taste burny stuff, you have already been inhaling burnt poly fiber. This is serious. Burnt poly fiber releases horrible toxins.

Whoah! Don't "go FDA" on us.

I seriously doubt you know the exact composition of the inner wrap on the KR808D-1 cartomizer.

I seriously doubt that you know the exact composition of the outer batting on the KR808D-1 cartomizer.

I seriously doubt if you know if all of the KR808D-1 style cartomizers use the exact same material.

I seriously doubt that you know the chemical composition of the fumes/gasses that are being emitted when that material burns/melts.

I think it is valid to have concerns that the burning/melting of the wrap and batting on the KR808D-1 style cartomizers may be problematic.. perhaps even hazardous.

Leave it at that. You lose credibility of you try to force it to the next level.

 

[Katmar]

Whoah! Don't "go FDA" on us.

I seriously doubt you know the exact composition of the inner wrap on the KR808D-1 cartomizer.

I seriously doubt that you know the exact composition of the outer batting on the KR808D-1 cartomizer.

I seriously doubt if you know if all of the KR808D-1 style cartomizers use the exact same material.

I seriously doubt that you know the chemical composition of the fumes/gasses that are being emitted when that material burns/melts.

I think it is valid to have concerns that the burning/melting of the wrap and batting on the KR808D-1 style cartomizers may be problematic.. perhaps even hazardous.

Leave it at that. You lose credibility of you try to force it to the next level.

Scottbee,
You are correct.
The only level I am trying to force it to is to see the suppliers deal with it. I just don't want it to continue to be swept aside. If my words seemed too strong, I apologize. I do, however, feel there is valid concern among many.

I do not know the exact composition of the "poly fiber fill" being used, but I DO understand that any type of Poly fiber that burns releases toxins. I do NOT know how much of that or in what amounts it is dangerous.

I also have NO doubt, though, that the cartomizers ARE problematic....and, perhaps, hazardous. I don't plan on risking that chance any longer. There are many other devices to choose from.

 

[Katya]

Whoah! Don't "go FDA" on us.

I seriously doubt you know the exact composition of the inner wrap on the KR808D-1 cartomizer.

I seriously doubt that you know the exact composition of the outer batting on the KR808D-1 cartomizer.

I seriously doubt if you know if all of the KR808D-1 style cartomizers use the exact same material.

I seriously doubt that you know the chemical composition of the fumes/gasses that are being emitted when that material burns/melts.

I think it is valid to have concerns that the burning/melting of the wrap and batting on the KR808D-1 style cartomizers may be problematic.. perhaps even hazardous.

Leave it at that. You lose credibility of you try to force it to the next level.

Thank you, Scottbee. As a 30-year+ smoker who has been inhaling such substances as arsenic, cyanide, Polonium-210, lead and tar, just to mention a few, I'm not exactly mortally afraid of taking an occasional whiff of burning poly-whatever. Two hours in LA traffic is probably just as bad, if not worse. But I agree that we do have a problem that should be discussed openly and in a friendly manner. I too had burnt cartos, mostly the lower resistance premiums. Not a pretty sight. I started following this thread to learn what can be done and what we need to do to protect ourselves from unnecessary exposure to potentially dangerous fumes. I am very grateful to the posters who try to share their wisdom and experience with others without personal attacks and unnecessary venom, even when seriously provoked. Let's keep this discussion polite and factual.

 

[unit40]

This case in analagous to the infamous "Unsafe At Any Speed" by Ralph Nader. Many similarities. Also analagous to the recent Toyota issues.

 

[Katmar]

Although Scottbee is correct in the assumption that I do NOT know the exact composition of the inner or outer wrap of the cartomizers, we DO know it is some type of poly fiber. And, it is true that I do NOT know the chemical composition of the fumes/gasses that are being emitted. I am not a chemist, nor a scientist. But when I research the inhalation of burnt or burning poly fiber, it does give me cause for concern.

I hope the suppliers are willing to take a good hard look at this problem and find ways to correct it with the manufacturers.

 

[skydragon]

Whoah! Don't "go FDA" on us.

I seriously doubt you know the exact composition of the inner wrap on the KR808D-1 cartomizer.

I seriously doubt that you know the exact composition of the outer batting on the KR808D-1 cartomizer.

I seriously doubt if you know if all of the KR808D-1 style cartomizers use the exact same material.

I seriously doubt that you know the chemical composition of the fumes/gasses that are being emitted when that material burns/melts.

I think it is valid to have concerns that the burning/melting of the wrap and batting on the KR808D-1 style cartomizers may be problematic.. perhaps even hazardous.

Leave it at that. You lose credibility of you try to force it to the next level.

Hi Scotbee,

I'm not sure why you accuse Katmar of "going FDA" on us. I myself don't equate asking for a safer carto to asking the FDA to step in. Are you just trying to discredit her in a subtle fashion as opposed to outright attacking her? I don't see anything wrong with wanting the vendors to do something about this.

You say may be problematic and perhaps hazardous. There is no doubt it is hazardous (toxic) which in turn makes it problematic.

Now before you ask me how I know it is toxic, what makes it toxic, at what levels is it toxic etc. etc. let me just say that is an easy way to deflect the issues. I think you are well aware of the fact we are not surround by labs. I think you are also aware that synthetic fibers are toxic when burned. Possibly (in fact probably) more toxic and faster acting than analogs.

But the crux of the matter is, if the vendors can fix the problem, why don't they?

Taking it to the next level is the only thing that can be done but the next level is the vendors.

 

[Scottbee]

Hi Scotbee,

I'm not sure why you accuse Katmar of "going FDA" on us. I myself don't equate asking for a safer carto to asking the FDA to step in. Are you just trying to discredit her in a subtle fashion as opposed to outright attacking her? I don't see anything wrong with wanting the vendors to do something about this.

I was very careful to NOT outright attack her. That wasn't my intent. The FDA came down on e-cigs with a horribly biased analysis, lacking specific testing details and analytics, yet still basically proclaiming them to be "unsafe" and perhaps even dangerous. It was a terrible disservice to the PV users and industry, and I was shocked to see it coming from an agency that actually has excellent testing equipment.. one that could have given hard data and a thorough analysis.

Boldly stating that the KR808D-1 style cartomizers are essentially unsafe, toxic, or hazardous without backing data is "going FDA" in my opinion.

You say may be problematic and perhaps hazardous. There is no doubt it is hazardous (toxic) which in turn makes it problematic.

Wrong. There is nothing but doubt. You have absolutely no idea if it is hazardous or not. You cannot give any data that shows an analysis of the vapor or "smoke" that comes from a spent KR808 cartomizer. You can't give me the PPM of any substance in that byproduct. Plain and simple.. you don't know. You are guessing or surmising.

Now before you ask me how I know it is toxic, what makes it toxic, at what levels is it toxic etc. etc. let me just say that is an easy way to deflect the issues. I think you are well aware of the fact we are not surround by labs. I think you are also aware that synthetic fibers are toxic when burned. Possibly (in fact probably) more toxic and faster acting than analogs.

It's not deflecting. It is stating a fact. You are GUESSING. And that guess is based on absolutely nothing but supposition. You do not know what the material is. You may guess that it is poly.. but you may be wrong. You are GUESSING that it is more toxic and/or faster acting than analogs.. you you may very well be wrong. Plain and simple, you don't know. And if you don't know, then don't state something as FACT.

But the crux of the matter is, if the vendors can fix the problem, why don't they?

What "problem"??? All I know right now is that disposable, single-use cartomizers don't last forever. Period.

 

[Katmar]

There is still an issue with using and selling something to be inhaled into the lungs when there is no safe shut off method before being poisoned with polyfill, batting and kevlar smoke. Quit smoking and lose lung capacity from the poly esters? It will get the industry shut down. Period. >.<

Cartomisers need to be safe without knowing when to top up.

I run a 901 set for part of the time after charcoal carts and make sure the carts are full after each 2-3 cig vaping session. I can open the 901 and know exactly what is going on and have never burned any wool as the atty has steel mesh to make contact.

In my opinion the only way to make a safe cartomiser will be to do the same steel mesh wrap inside it, and add a cut off sensor when over heating occurs. That sounds like a $5 cartomiser to me.

Mark my words, if the cartomiser manufacturers do not get this safety glitch under control, pronto, the FDA will test the smoke and run a chromo test on it and its all over for cartomisers when they find the toxics in the vapor.

The only thing available after that will be 510s and 901s

As I drip and puff my cartos....doh.

The above is from Post #29
Below is Post #33, in which he quotes Brew:
I wrote the post # so anyone can see the context of both.

I've had similar thoughts for some time now....

NOW, color me CONFUSED!!!!
I am not sure why the sudden change into the "carts are disposable" stance. I realize I may not know everything, but you seem to have done an almost complete 360, Scottbee. I have read MANY of your posts agreeing there is a problem and you have even posted pictures.

 

[Katmar]

I will also add that I believe the potential for serious problems exists with the current kr808 cartomizer. I believe it NEEDS to be addressed NOW.

It CAN be a great product if you eliminate the burning filler issue, that most certainly can happen even when the outer filler is wet.

 

[skydragon]

I was very careful to NOT outright attack her. That wasn't my intent. The FDA came down on e-cigs with a horribly biased analysis, lacking specific testing details and analytics, yet still basically proclaiming them to be "unsafe" and perhaps even dangerous. It was a terrible disservice to the PV users and industry, and I was shocked to see it coming from an agency that actually has excellent testing equipment.. one that could have given hard data and a thorough analysis.

Boldly stating that the KR808D-1 style cartomizers are essentially unsafe, toxic, or hazardous without backing data is "going FDA" in my opinion.



Wrong. There is nothing but doubt. You have absolutely no idea if it is hazardous or not. You cannot give any data that shows an analysis of the vapor or "smoke" that comes from a spent KR808 cartomizer. You can't give me the PPM of any substance in that byproduct. Plain and simple.. you don't know. You are guessing or surmising.



It's not deflecting. It is stating a fact. You are GUESSING. And that guess is based on absolutely nothing but supposition. You do not know what the material is. You may guess that it is poly.. but you may be wrong. You are GUESSING that it is more toxic and/or faster acting than analogs.. you you may very well be wrong. Plain and simple, you don't know. And if you don't know, then don't state something as FACT.



What "problem"??? All I know right now is that disposable, single-use cartomizers don't last forever. Period.

Hi Scottbee,

I don't know how to make the individual boxes to respond to your statements so I will just have to ramble on and hopefully address everything.

If you didn't mean "going FDA on us" as a subtle attack or a way to discredit than I apologize. It's just that if a person is thought to want the FDA involved they are quickly dismissed and anything they say discounted. By myself as well.

I agree that what the FDA did and what they continue to do is very biased and driven by ulterior motives. Not our well being. I have no desire to have the FDA involved in this and I don't think any of us are implying we do. Well, actually I think someone said something about them pages back.

Actually, before I get into all your other statements, please let me know if you agree that these are synthetic fibers.

Oh, and if you wouldn't mind telling me how to block off certain parts and respond I would appreciate it and it would make it much simpler. Thanks.

 

[Scottbee]

NOW, color me CONFUSED!!!!
I am not sure why the sudden change into the "carts are disposable" stance. I realize I may not know everything, but you seem to have done an almost complete 360, Scottbee. I have read MANY of your posts agreeing there is a problem and you have even posted pictures.

I have been very, very careful in this thread and the other one to state that I have "concerns", and that there MAY be a safety issue.

This is not a 360. It is consistency and clarity.

As I have stated about a half dozen times now: I do not know if there is a real problem associated with the burning/melting of the layers in the KR808D-1 cartomizer. I do not know if the byproducts are toxic or hazardous. I do not know what the chemical composition of the vapor/smoke is.

Neither do you.

What I do know is that I don't like the fact that the internals of the cartomizer melts/burns. And I have a concern that the byproducts may be a problem. And I hope that the manufacturers and/or vendors either have done tests.. or will do tests to assure that they are intrinsically "safe". Because if they are not, and the FDA gets a hold of it..... we're in trouble.

Clear?