All these threads regarding safety and regulations, and my ranting

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warbdan

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You're still missing the point. I'm not picking at you, but the hard numbers are useless when no safe level has been found. there is no PEL for exposure to these chemicals, so they should be avoided if at all possible for general public safety. That is why Pop Weaver and Orville Redenbacher(sp?) removed them from their popcorn.
 

rockyroad

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Considering that I would NOT have quit analogs without going to the PV no I would not. I wouldn't have quit smoking either tho....And I've tried repeatedly... I have been 100% analog free for 144 days.....since i smoked about 3 packs a day that translates to 8212 cigarettes I have NOT smoked. That means I have not inhaled tar and carbon monoxide 8212 times.....it means that those same number of times I have avoided 4000+ carcinogenic chemicals that ARE in cigarettes. Cigarette smoking has been proven to be harmful to ones health and I COULD not stop that. In the 144 days I've been using the PV I have gone from using 36mg of nicotine in my juice to using between 12mg and 9 mg. It is not even comparable to analog smoking......would you go out to your car and suck on the tail pipe while it was running for 10 minutes? Carbon Monoxide inhalation is hazardous to your health. Nicotine is according to 2 of my doctors about as harmful to your health as caffeine so No I'm not gonna get excited quitting vaping. I didn't intend to reduce my nicotine intake either... dizziness and headaches decided that for me.... I don't get those at 12 mg.....will I reduce again if I start getting headaches yes. but I won't stop vaping.

WOW Heather congrats !! three packs a day was a big bad habit to break. Your also not the first person I've seen post about the nicotine reduction part, which is good to hear again. I know that N.V.C. is or was raising funds to find out about second hand vapor. Does anyone know if there are studies in the works to determine how much nicotine is absorbed into the lungs from vaping. It seems like the vapor is doing a good job at delivering. Maybe better than what we thought.
 

Automaton

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Panini - Well, so far, I believe (though I haven't checked lately and could be mistaken) the only flavorist who has come forward about diacetyl is FlavourArt. So that does narrow the field. And I do also know that some juice vendors are slowly grinding their way towards disclosure and replacement options. It's going slower than many would like, but it's going.

Of course, we will never have true disclosure until there's a regulatory rule about it.

As far as I'm aware, there has never been a case of someone showing symptoms in an hour. Which is what this original discussion (this one anyway - there seem to be a couple going on!) was based upon.

warbdan
- This was actually about finding the numbers themselves, in reference to DIY juice making, not about if they were safe. I'm not arguing that - just that the numbers are there.
 

Fernand

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Lawd, if diketones are irritants, then well WELL before you suffer permanent damage, might you not experience ... some mild irritation, maybe notice it? Or are they a new class that does nothing until at some very deferred moment suddenly, WHAM, they obliterate your bronchioles? That would be unusual.

As to where the 4.3 ppm figure in inhaled air for a heavily flavored vape came from, it might be high, or it might be low, but I went through the assumptions, model and math on the last diacetyl thread, and nobody came up with anything to show how they were wrong. In fact my initial figure was lower, and people pointed out why i needed to increase the amounts vaped per 8 hour period, and the max flavoring concentrations used, based on their experience. Hopefully some day someone will make some actual measurements, but it made me nervous that it would even be remotely possible that a factor of 25 would take us to where you can toss rat lungs after 6 hours. Before you dismiss it, review the calculations, I don't see a need to repeat them here. I'm satisfied it's not an adequate margin of safety such that I would want to risk it.
 

Automaton

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Plenty of life-threatening illnesses produce no symptoms until they're serious. Ovarian cancer comes immediately to mind. AIDS, often times. Lots of brain diseases/disorders. It's not unusual at all for symptoms to be delayed from the onset of an illness.

Well, I have never heard of a flavoring which produces 4.3ppm when diluted. Ever. I have never heard of a flavor with even a quarter that much diacetyl, even in their pure form. I'm curious as to what flavoring it is.

But you said in your earlier post you vaped it for one hour, not eight. Which is it?

I'm not arguing it may or may not be harmful. I'm discussing the likely cause of your symptoms. Diacetyl isn't one of them, from your own reported symptoms. You don't seem interested in finding out what the real cause of your symptoms is. For all you know, it's ethyl maltol, or some other sweetener, or even one of the "safer" diacetyl replacements.

At no point have I denied the validity of you choosing to avoid diacetyl. I was simply trying to help you narrow down a cause. But you'd rather be dogmatic than find out what actually caused your symptoms.

And no, you did not describe THAT mix earlier. All I want to know is what flavoring it is. Because I have researched this, so as to come to my own conclusion, and that figure does not resemble anything I have seen.
 

Fernand

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Nomad, I should add that I agree that there are other flavoring components that are possible explanations for my cough. But if you have a lot of DIY supplies, and are a bit reckless, I can point you by PM to one or two you can taste the burn from and see why I make a connection.

As to the estimated 4.3 ppm, I'll rerun the calcs, as i multiplied on the fly, and could have made any number of mistakes.

"But you said in your earlier post you vaped it for one hour, not eight. Which is it?"
I don't know what you're talking about. I said I got my little cough back after lessbthan 2 hours. I get it so far only from specific types of flavorings. The lab animals suffered deep damage after 6 hours at 100-350 ppm in one study, 8 hours a day as i recall at 100 ppm or more in another. Have you read the Hubbs studies?

But if you want to believe in only-deferred irritation, be my guest.
 
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Antwoord

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If we take the butter flavoring from Flavour art said to have a concentration of 1.5% of diacetyl and we say that the butter flavoring is used in a 50 percent flavoring solution.

That is .5 x .015 = .0075

Is there anything wrong with my math there?

All I'm doing is taking a percentage of a percentage. If you put 20 percent butter flavor into a solution, and 1.5 percent of that 20 percent is diacetyl then.

.2 x .015 = .003

Here are the numbers for a 10 percent flavoring solution which coincide with Nikhil's estimates in another thread.

.1 x .015 = .0015

They correspond with Nikhil's numbers when you consider the amount in a single drag, which is estimated at .2 mls or 20 percent of a milliliter.

.0015 x .2 = .0003

At a 5 percent flavoring solution:

.05 x .015 = .00075


But lets remember we vape .2 mls in a average drag.

so .2 * .00075 = .00015

Then we can multiply that number to get to 10 percent flavoring by 2, or 15 percent flavoring by 3. I'm no math wiz. But to get back to Nikhil's numbers .00015 x 2 = .0003

If I'm not mistaken that lines up with Fernand's calculations of 4.5 ppm if you use 15 percent flavoring. But I think 1 part per million when measured in milliliters is .001

.00015 x 3 = .00045

For 5 percent flavoring that is equal to .45 ppm. Half of a part per million.

Here is a conversion calculator. http://www.unitconversion.org/concentration-solution/grams-per-liter-to-parts-per-million-ppm-conversion.html

Try putting 1 into the parts per million section. To back that up here is another source detailing the difference between grams and miligrams/liters and milliliters in the first paragraph.
http://www.csaceliacs.org/documents/APartPerMillion.pdf

~shrug~
 
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Panini

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If we take the butter flavoring from Flavour art said to have a concentration of 1.5% of diacetyl and we say that the butter flavoring is used in a 50 percent flavoring solution.

That is .5 x .015 = .0075

Is there anything wrong with my math there?

All I'm doing is taking a percentage of a percentage. If you put 20 percent butter flavor into a solution, and 1.5 percent of that 20 percent is diacetyl then.

.2 x .015 = .003

So then we could say that .003 of 10ml is .03

At a 5 percent flavoring solution:

.05 x .015 = .00075

10 * .00075 = .0075


But lets say we vape .2 mls in a average drag.

so .2 * .00075 = .00015

Ant, there was extensive discussion on this in the monster thread --> http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-diacetyl-their-e-liquids-63.html#post2100507 and I believe it kicks off around page 62 or 63 (seriously!) I believe the further calculations had to do with vapes-per-day, volume of air per breath, etc.
 

Automaton

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I'm just saying that it is not a symptom of diacetyl-related illness that I have ever heard of, even with extremely high dosage. When trying to widdle down causes of a given symptom, knowing the symptoms and if they match your own is the whole basis.

I can say that smoking gave me a nasty cough without assuming I have lung cancer. I probably just had tar in my lungs. And I can know that cigs do cause lung cancer without assuming that I have it, just because smoking made me feel crappy. Just because I felt crappy due to smoking does not mean that the time frame or the symptoms match lung cancer.

No doubt, I know what you mean about some juices just "not feeling right." I've certainly had that a time or two. And also, mostly with dessert or fruit flavors, and once with a minty flavor. I suspect, for my own symptoms, it may be a sweetener my body doesn't like, given the types of flavors it's in, and that some of them don't contain any diacetyl. They burn and make me feel bad in artificially sweetened drinks, too.

At the end of the day, even most of the flavorists we use are up-starts, and we don't really know what they use. For those "unknown" variables, I mostly go by how I feel.

Antwoord - Looks good to me.
 

Antwoord

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The numbers were brought up again. I thought maybe it would benefit new people to see very basic calculations.

Actually I think Fernand was just a tad off. It should be .45ppm at 15 percent Butter flavoring containing 1.5 percent diacetyl according to Flavour Art.

These numbers don't reflect cumulative effect, or how diluted a solution is by the rest of a breath, or anything else.
 
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Panini

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The numbers were brought up again. I thought maybe it would benefit new people to see very basic calculations.

Actually I think Fernand was just a tad off. It should be .45ppm at 15 percent Butter flavoring containing 1.5 percent diacetyl according to Flavour Art.

These numbers don't reflect cumulative effect, or how diluted a solution is by the rest of a breath, or anything else.

Oh I understand. I wasn't questioning your math or why you posted your calculations...sorry if it came off that way. I just thought you might be interested in a previous discussion on the numbers.
 

Jim211

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Not wanting to get in the middle of this but 1 thing for sure is that I feel healthier than when i smoked. And the vape taste better than smoke. So note to op, your point is not valid. My body tells me vaping is way better for me than smoking. Lesser of 2 evils maybe but isn't that the point of vaping? I just know I can breath,taste and run farther now than when i smoked.
 

Xanax

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You say you are sick of people thinking that their way is the only way. Yet you are telling us to stop vaping if we don't "NEED" it anymore. Sounds a lot like the pot calling the kettle black to me.
EDIT: this was to the OP. I didn't realize this thread was already pages in when I clicked it. (on Tapatalk so it doesn't show how many replies there are when clicking the title)
 

Antwoord

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Shan, Pharmacology is a research discipline unrelated to Pharmacy and "state licensing". Although I make no great efforts to conceal my identity, I share the general unease that permeates this environment and prefer to retain some privacy. Where I studied and taught many years ago, and what I do with my time are not going to convince you of anything, and shouldn't. Let's see if we can reason together. We are mainly concerned with our exposure to 2,3-butanedione (diacetyl) and 2,3-pentanedione (acetyl propionyl), that are (oh so widely!) used as "buttery" flavoring agents, and both of which seem to cause damage when inhaled, in lab animals and humans. The principal investigator of the acetyl propionyl study you referenced just told me that a similar study on the third commonly used buttery flavoring molecule, acetoin, has completed and is currently in peer-review, i.e. should be available soon, but that she has not seen the data. However, there is reason to believe that it is specifically the diketone structure that is associated with this toxicity, so acetoin is not likely to be as toxic.

If we don't share certain fundamental beliefs, then surely there is nothing we can agree on. I hope that's not the case. Can we agree that the reason people passing a buttered popcorn stand don't just keel over is because there is a concentration of diacetyl at which acute toxicity is not seen, and another at which long term effects vanish as well, in other words that diacetyl, like all drugs and toxins, is bound to obey a dose-response curve that can be discovered? The three questions that I consider most relevant include what damage has been directly observed at what degree of exposure, what has been correlated statistically long term with what concentrations of these agents over how much time (both peak and average, and in conjunction with what other agents), and what level of exposure we are "enjoying" when we use e-liquids whose flavoring contains diacety (or Acetyl Propionyl).

As more information becomes available about the damage (or lack of damage) associated with different inhaled concentrations of flavoring agents, we will continue to see concentrations reported in Parts Per Million of inhaled air. What we need to get a handle on, as Panini said, is their concentration in the e-cig vapor, not in the liquid. Rather than argue about the methodology and conclusions of the few available studies, maybe we can work together to refine a model that might allow us to at least estimate the vapor concentration of flavoring compounds used in e-liquids? Diacetyl is just one that is getting attention at the moment. I rather believe similar issues will likely emerge for other flavoring agents that are mucosal irritants at high concentrations, so what we develop here will be useful long term.

"Vaping" is quite different from smoking. The flavoring maker FlavourArt has published the concentration of diacetyl present in many of their flavoring concentrates, which is very helpful, but when they start to talk about level of exposure from "vaping" they reveal a lack of familiarity with the way e-liquids are used. FlavourArt calculates that an e-smoker is exposed to "0.009 ppm" in an e-smoking session, based on 1.5% diacetyl being present in their Butter flavoring, 0.3% butter flavoring being used in e-liquid, and an e-cigarette containing 0.2 ml of e-liquid

Diacetile - Flavourart. La sartoria degli aromi

This figure is useless, as e-cigarettes aren't "consumed" the way they imply, and their figure doesn't represent a (relevant) concentration we might compare to concentrations reported in the emerging toxicology studies.

How can we realistically estimate the concentration of a flavoring compound that an e-cigarette user inhales? Here is what I came up with so far. The model is simplistic. I have no experience in e-cigarette inhalation studies, but then again I don't know if anyone else does either. I would be grateful if others would look this over with an eye for errors, mistakes, incorrect assumptions etc. Hopefully we can refine the model over time.

Let's say the compound of interest is diacetyl.

In a butter flavoring concentrate the manufacturer states that the diacetyl concentration is 1.5 % or 1.5 grams per 100 grams of solution.

1 milliliter or 1 cc or 1 gram of flavoring concentrate then contains:

1 * 0.015 = 0.015 grams of diacetyl, or 15 milligrams/ml

Let's say the proportion of the butter flavoring concentrate used to flavor some e-liquid (consisting primarily of propylene glycol and glycerin) is 0.3 % (with additional flavors adding up to e.g. 5% total). This is also the figure FlavourArt uses. We have

0.003 ml of flavoring in 1 ml of e-liquid

1 milliliter (roughly equal to 1000 milligrams) of e-liquid then contains

15 * 0.003 = 0.045 milligrams of diacetyl. So far we agree with FlavourArt.

The average person breathes 15 times a minute with a volume of 0.5 liters per breath, or 7.5 liters per minute. An e-cigarette is a personal vaporizer that is used to provide an on-demand stream of vaporized e-liquid. The mechanics of currently used devices dictate a specific 2 step aspiration technique. Let's say a "chain vaper" who deeply inhales, a heavy user, is "loading" every fifth breath with vapor, such that half the breath is mixed with vapor and the other half is "a chaser", and he observes that he goes through 1 ml of e-liquid in 8 hours.

I don't think these figures are wildly off; many users consume less, and some extreme vapers use more, or use variations in their "vaping" technique, but this seems like a reasonable first pass model. During that time, 8 hours,

7.5 * 60 * 8 = 3600 liters of air were inhaled

If we believe that one fifth of that volume was vapor-loaded half way, then, for the purpose of calculating the concentration in inhaled air, we can say that about

3600 / 5 / 2 = 360 liters

of air were actually loaded with vapor. In actuality the clean air "chaser" will almost instantly dilute the loaded half-breath, during inhalation, so if anything our calculations are (properly) biased high, towards the "worst case."

That's 0.36 cubic meters of vapor-loaded air inhaled over 8 hours.

If we assume no losses, no burned e-liquid, no mopped-up leaks, the concentration of diacetyl in that loaded inhaled air is then simply the diacetyl in the 1 ml of e-liquid depleted during that time, divided by the volume of the inhaled loaded air.

0.045 mg / 0.36 m^3 = 0.125 mg/cubic meter

The customarily referenced "ppm", or parts per million concentration of a substance in air is:

24.45 * mg/m^3 / mol wt

The molecular weight of diacetyl is 86. The concentration of diacetyl in the vapor-loaded air is then:

24.45 * 0.125 / 86 = 0.036 ppm

On some short draws it might be higher. If we believe that the loaded half-breath is immediately diluted by as much fresh air, the concentration that reaches lung tissue is about half of that:

0.036 / 2 = 0.018 ppm.

Whether this represents a hazardous level of a specific substance is a completely separate issue, but at least we have a ballpark figure on inhaled vapor concentration, and a first pass model for calculating the concentration of flavorings in inhaled e-liquid vapor, expressed in units compatible with toxicology studies. Hopefully this model can be refined over time.

Notes:
The ppm conversion equation can be found at
http://www.smarte.org/smarte/dynamic/resource/sn-units-of-measure.xml.pdf

The concentration of Acetyl Propionyl in a flavor where it is used in place of diacetyl, is roughly similar. Since the molecular weight is only a little higher, the "vape air" concentrations computed from this model also work out about the same. It's also true that the Acetyl Propionyl concentrations associated with the acute respiratory damage induced by diacetyl in lab animals, are similar. For all the practical purposes at hand, these compounds are more or less interchangeable.

I think the initial number of .045 milligrams is not the number to use in the formula. On Flavour Art's website they say, The amount of diacetyl in 100 ml of E.juice is 0,0045 grams when a .3 percent Butter flavoring is used. Lets take the percentage up by multiplying by 30 to get to 9 percent.

.3 x 30 = 9

Now lets multiply their .0045 by 30.

.0045 x 30 = .135

That number is still for 100ml of juice. We have to divide by 100 to get to 1ml.

.135 / 100 = .00135

We can reference Flavour Arts concentrations by percentages to confirm that this is correct. Butter has 1.5 percent diacetyl. At 9 percent flavoring the equation would be.

.09 x .015 = .00135.

We are still dealing with 1ml of juice, not .2mls of juice per vape. So .00135 * .2 = .00027 BUT!!!, Lets say someone takes 2 vapes per minute. So every 2.2 minutes someone consumes a milliliter? That is a high high estimate. Ridiculously high. That means that in 60 minutes someone would consume close to 30mls. I am pretty sure if you vaped twice a minute for an hour you would not get close to consuming 30mls. Anyway.

Lets look at it another way. 6mls a day with .00135 grams diacetyl in 1ml. .00135 x 6 = .0081


So these numbers in the milligrams per cubic meter formula would now look like this:

.0081 / .36 m^3 I don't know what number you are using for "m".

And, why are we using 8 hours? Lets extend it to 16 or double.

.0081 / .72 m^3

That should give us the milligrams per cubic meter that we breathe per day if we used 9 percent butter flavor? What is "m"?

After that we can get the parts per million with the 24.45 x concentration (mg/m3) ÷ molecular weight formula.


___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Going by the formula from your source, the mg/m3 formula, or milligrams per cubic meter is what I've called it. It would be.

0.0409 x concentration (ppm) x molecular weight as you have done it to get your original .125 number or perhaps the formula I'm mentioning isn't the one, but I did check your math and it seems the below calculations will work.

.0081 x .72 = 0.005832

Then to plug that into the ppm formula

24.45 x concentration (mg/m3) ÷ molecular weight

24.45 x 0.005832 / 86 = 0.0016580511627907 (Formerly it was .036ppm)

To then cut that in half, which I may have forfeited by reducing the 100ml amount, it would come out as .00085ppm.
 
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Fernand

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Antwoord, the concentration in liquid is meaningless if we want to compare to the toxicity studies. What we need to calculate is the parts per million concentration of AP in inhaled vaped air for a strongly flavored juice. When you quoted my post you didn't mention that I revised my estimate upward after people pointed out I was using low figures. I'm redoing the calculations here, using easier to follow hourly amounts instead of using an 8 hour period, and using the suggested higher amounts of a known flavoring with a known amount of Acetyl Proptionyl. I don't know why you say 30 ml vaped per hour. And Flavourart's figures are nonsense. Go through the steps here for yourself.

First do the fundamental calculation of how much diacetyl or Acetyl Propionyl (AP) is in the flavoring by taking a known case, say a vanillaey custardy type that I was informed has 1.6 g of AP per 100 g (roughly 100 ml) of flavoring, or 16 mg per ml of flavoring (remember 1 ml is 1 gram, not 1 milligram, that's a common mistake, right?)

Now let's use the case of someone who uses a generous amount of this vanillaey custardey flavoring in their juice, 3 drops per ml, strong but quite possible. That's 0.150 ml, or 15%. Possibly what's in a luscious commercial juice. A milliliter of that juice (which weighs about a gram) then holds 2.4 mg of AP. In my previous diacetyl example I used much less flavoring, too little it was pointed out. I think 15% is a high but not implausible case. If you think anything as we go is totally crazy implausible, make a note.

Then we look at how how much juice we might vape per hour. I know I now often use over 3 ml per waking and vaping day, sometimes 5, on my eGo. Let's use 4 ml per 12 chain-vaping hours. High, but not implausible. I made 6 ml of juice last night, started on it this afternoon, am down to 2 ml, and the day is not over. Then we're using 4/12 or 0.333 ml of juice per hour (which at 15% of a 1.6% AP flavoring contains 0.80 mg AP) (again, 1 ml is 1 gram, not 1 milligram). We can double check this by noting that 1 ml of juice had 2.4 mg, so 0.333 ml has 0.80 mg.

Then look up typical respiratory volumes, how much a breath measures, and how many breaths are typically taken per hour. That gives us average volume of inspired air per hour. The average figure from textbooks is 15 breaths per minute at 0.5 liters per breath, or 450 liters per hour. That's 0.450 cubic meters per hour.

Then comes an assumption, a "model", that the way our user chain vapes is by taking a drag every 5th breath, and of that breath, half is actually a "drag", the other a "chaser" of fresh air. So by dividing the total inhaled air volume every hour by 5 and again by 2 we get a volume of air that is inhaled loaded with vapor in an hour. 450 / 5 /2 = 45 liters per hour. That's 45/1000 cubic meters or 0.045 cubic meters per hour.

Since we have the amount of juice consumed per hour, in other words vaporized, and the amount of air it has been vaporized into, we can now calculate the average amount of juice suspended in a volume of "loaded" air, which will give us our ppm.

It doesn't matter to me exactly how much is in an aerosol, and how much is in the gas phase, because it ultimately interacts with cells in the liquid phase anyway, so the total vaporized concentration is most relevant. If you want to get into the subtleties, you can re-read Ann Hubbs' papers.

We have 0.333 ml of juice in 45 liters of air, equivalent to 0.333 g in 0.045 cubic meters, or 7.4 g per cubic meter, of which 15% is flavoring at 1.6% AP, or 17.76 mg of AP per cubic meter.

A way to double-check this is we had calculated 0.80 mg of AP in that hourly 0.333 ml of vape, so we have 0.80 mg per 0.045 cubic meters or 17.77 mg AP per cubic meter. It checks.

By using the molecular weight of AP, it's 100 g/mole, we use a standard formula to obtain a ppm concentration of diacetyl or AP in inhaled air.

24.45 * (concentration in mg/cubic meter) / mol wt

24.45 * 17.77 / 100 = 4.35 ppm

That's about the same figure I had estimated for a diacetyl case after applying the corrections some readers suggested.

There isn't a whole lot of theory or assumption in here. If you accept that mixers might use 15% of a vanillaey custardy flavoring, and you can work with the idea that chain-vapers inhale during half of every fifth breath, then everything else is unquestionable, just math. The Acetyl Propionyl at 1.6 g per 100, i.e. 1.6 %, is straight off a manufacturer's confidential "recipe", I cannot disclose which one, but it roughly agrees with Flavourart's diacetyl figures, 0.5 to 1.5 %, and they don't tell us how much AP they use. The flavoring with 1.6 g of AP has in addition 2.7 g of Acetoin. If they used only AP, or only diacetyl, the amount would have to be higher yet.

So Antwoord, please re-do the math and tell us what you get. Or tell us what is off the wall in the model. I think it's correct. Since 4.3 ppm is only 25 times lower than a level that will tear up animal lungs in a matter of hours, I sure don't think that's a safe margin.
 
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Antwoord

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Hmm, I think you are right, but good god man it should be illegal to talk in fractions of an already fractionated measurement lol. If Flavour Art is saying there are .0045 grams in 100mls does that mean there are 45 milligrams? If .001 grams is a milligram? So then if we wanted to calculate the amount in 1ml or 1 gram we would have .45 milligrams? I have been awake too long lol. I am still not going to be vaping any sort of buttery, nutty, creamy, yogurty, caramely, etc. type flavoring without making the juice myself.
 

Fernand

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Nomad, I can't help disagreeing with you in friendship. The ovarian cancer you mention, or AIDS, are different from tox from an irritant in specific ways. Cancer is always a statistical event, the damaged DNA/RNA is thrown into a lottery as to whether a specific mutation will occur. Of course in some cases it takes long, it's an ongoing series of tosses of the dice. AIDS is deferred, asymptomatic at first, only if you don't measure the T cells. HIV shows up as damaged immune systems quite rapidly, and after time a lottery effect and the patient's whole system may or may not let the more obvious sequels develop. With an irritant there's irritation detectable very quickly, and then a lot of factors will combine to determine if it progresses to something anatomically disastrous or not, but it's not like a mutation lottery, it's mostly dose-dependent. That said, here could be many parallel tracks on which diacetyl/AP toxicity occurs, some of them cumulative/deferred, others more immediate, and possibly causing a slight cough very quickly. We can't be sure.
 
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Antwoord

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Antwoord, Flavourart was very helpful in providing what they did, and I think they didn't mean to mislead. They got confused by their own fractions and the fact they never looked at the issues too closely. They do make nice flavoring, you can't focus on everything ;-)

Lol, I meant all of that in good humor. I like Flavor Art quite a bit. Lived in Italy for a few years, and I know how health conscious those people are. They wont even use anti-perspirant because of the chemicals involved in plugging up your pores etc. I just ordered a ton of fruit flavored stuff from them. I think their disclosure is invaluable, and I also wrote them about acetyl propionyl they replied that it was expensive and they did not use it, so to me they are fantastic. I asked about 2,3, pentanedione/acetyl propionyl to another flavoring company and never got a response. I only wish FA would open up a U.S location.
 
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