So, after realizing that I am absolutely in love with CLS, I decided I should probably have a gander on the interwebs about diketones and their possible hazards. What I read is deeply disturbing. I had never heard anything about them until I started vaping. Obviously the main stories I read were about diacetyl and "popcorn lung". Some really disturbing stuff. But for a second I breathed a sigh of relief knowing I have never vaped diacetyl(although diacetyl is in analogs), and ALMOST no one uses it in ejuice anymore. But then I started reading about acetyl propionyl, and how it is being used as a replacement for diacetyl. Acetyl propionyl is actually a more complex diketone than diacetyl, which mean there is a good chance that it breaks down into diacetyl once in our bodies. I also read on several studies and experiments that have been done with acetyl propionyl, and the results are equally as disturbing as the ones done with diacetyl. In a 2 week inhalation study done on rats, acetyl propionyl caused proliferations of fibrous connective tissue in the walls of the airways. It also cause changes in gene expression in the brain.....some really scary stuff, and as much as I love CLS, I think I personally may have to stop vaping anything that contains diketones.....I started to vaping to potentially clean up my health, and much of what I have read seems that some of these flavorings are worse than cigs. This is a sad day for me knowing I probably wont be ordering anymore CLS, but on the bright side, H1N1 is freaking amazing!!!
Am I the only one panicking about diketones??
- Thread starter Nugget40
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
I think your concern is VALID - we share the same concern.
We actually have a standard disclosure on the website for all the liquids which contain diketones... essentially it's a 'nod' to an elevated risk profile. The truth is - we just don't know what the long-term (longitudinal) effects of vaping are, regardless of what types of flavoring are used. The scariest part about vaping isn't what's known, it's what's UNKNOWN. The mostly likely candidate for potential long-term health issues isn't something we know to look for or avoid, it's something we couldn't have possibly predicted or anticipated.
We're candid and forthcoming about the potential risks - at this point, it's unethical for us to claim that vaping is "healthier than smoking." From a liability stand-point, that's exactly the position we are forced to take... we just don't know? Do we think it *might* be healthier? Who is "we" - and how much healthier? There are LOTS of questions that need to be answered - this industry as a whole is still in its infancy - innovation is outpacing the science to support it, presently.
We actually have a standard disclosure on the website for all the liquids which contain diketones... essentially it's a 'nod' to an elevated risk profile. The truth is - we just don't know what the long-term (longitudinal) effects of vaping are, regardless of what types of flavoring are used. The scariest part about vaping isn't what's known, it's what's UNKNOWN. The mostly likely candidate for potential long-term health issues isn't something we know to look for or avoid, it's something we couldn't have possibly predicted or anticipated.
We're candid and forthcoming about the potential risks - at this point, it's unethical for us to claim that vaping is "healthier than smoking." From a liability stand-point, that's exactly the position we are forced to take... we just don't know? Do we think it *might* be healthier? Who is "we" - and how much healthier? There are LOTS of questions that need to be answered - this industry as a whole is still in its infancy - innovation is outpacing the science to support it, presently.
I have 2 full 50ml of CLS, 2 50ml of crème brulee and 1 50ml of banana pudding, you know Im still gonna vape those like a champ. While having an anxiety attack the entire time about how many scars the acetyl propionyl is leaving in my airways. Clark you gotta come up with a revolutionary flavoring. Something to change the game, as you are the flavor guru, the one and only vape ninja chef.
I greatly respect you for that, most companies just say "nope, that's not in OUR juice" Actually your warning is what caused me to start to do a little research about these chemical compounds. When I first read your warning when buying applicable juices, I just kinda shrugged it off, thinking " it cant be worse than butts" I mean, no one really knows if they are even in high enough concentrations in ejuice to do any harm, but the studies out there are have some scary findings.
I didn't give up smoking because of health, even though it is a bonus if vaping is better, I started vaping just because I didn't like smoking, stinky dirty habit, so I'm not to concerned about the scares in flavors, I take note of them, but still vape them, so feel free to send me that CB and banana pudding if don't want to vape them 
There's another variable - exposure. My doctor said to me once... 2-3 cigarettes a day isn't any worse than the air in LA. Honestly, I believe the guy. It's a question of levels of exposure, and what is acceptable vs. what is unacceptable in terms of levels. There is probably some level of exposure to diketones that they will inevitably determine is sufficiently low enough to minimize the risk of potential health consequences, BUT - there is still no substitute for clean, fresh air. Personally, I will take a bottle of eLiquid chock full of diacetyl over a cigarette, although I can't say with absolute certainty that it's safer. The popcorn workers were exposed to extremely high levels/concentrations of diacetyl, which was in every breath they took for as long as they were inside the plant (8-10 hour days), over a period of decades. I'd speculate that even a rabid vaper who consumes nothing but diacetyl based custard flavoring would consume a fraction of that in a lifetime.
I don't share this "opinion" with you to minimize the risk at all, because the risk is real. However, at present there are no known cases of "popcorn workers lung" in the vaping community - but - I don't expect there would be... after all, there hasn't been sufficient time for that kind of malady to manifest at the present levels of exposure. The only prudent advice I can give in the absence of sufficient research to prove or disprove otherwise is this...
I honestly hope to lose each and every one of you as a customer, someday. Despite the fact that we stand to profit by providing you with an option to traditional analog cigarettes, it's our sincerest hope that one day you lay put your mod down and cast aside all risks associated with inhaling anything except what God and nature intended.
Last edited:
It's one thing to say "Our liquid doesn't contain diacetyl" - it's another thing entirely to acknowledge (and promote awareness) that there are chemical compounds like acetyl propionyl and acetoin that are "Generally Recognized as Safe" (GRAS) by the Flavor and Extract Manufacturers Association (FEMA) for use in FOOD, but that remain unstudied as it relates specifically for inhalation. Again back to - we don't know. It's all too easy for vendors to gloss over these details, but I would feel misguided and misled by an error of omission if someone didn't say "HEY, we don't know how this will effect your health - use at your own risk." It's that kind of industry responsibility that gives me reason to support *some* of what the FDA is trying to do with regard to introducing oversight into the eCigarette and eLiquid industries. That said, it seems like they use a sledge-hammer when the job could have easily been done with dremel tool.
In the end - I am glad that my disclosure led to a search in which you can make an informed decision about the liquid you choose to consume. I appreciate this topic coming up, periodically, because it gives me another opportunity to say "HEY FOLKS - VAPING IS *NOT* GOOD FOR YOUR HEALTH" It's a sobering statement, but one that every harm-reduction guru has to accept.
I gotta say, I respected Clark from the beginning, but my respect has just increased by leaps and bounds! I don't know of any man who is as honest and honorable! You always have our backs and we will always have yours Clark!
So true Chill, I may never stop vaping as I would fear I'd be back on cigs *RIGHT NOW* but in the future who knows? But I know Clark will have my back no matter what. And when new qualified information (i.e. NOT bad science) comes out he will act on it, tell us all about it and how he is adjusting his juice to protect us and what we should expect.
Clark WILL NOT do a bait and switch like big baccy did to the smokers in the 60's, he will tell us right up front as soon as he knows. I have the deepest respect for Clark, Katy and their business!!!
It's refreshing to read that, Clark, especially coming from a juice vendor. I'm tired of people saying vaping is healthy and the famous "it's only PG, VG, nicotine and flavors, nothing harmful" line. What's in the juice is one thing, what's in the vapor is another, and what it does to our body is yet another.
The truth is... we don't know, and we won't know for sure until a few generations of vapers have passed. Thanks for saying it, and thanks for doing your best to raise your customers' awareness.
The truth is... we don't know, and we won't know for sure until a few generations of vapers have passed. Thanks for saying it, and thanks for doing your best to raise your customers' awareness.
An assistant of mine does scene work for the Denver Center for the Performing Arts and he told me that to be an Actors Guild house they have a very strict accounting system for the PG they use in foggy scenes. There is only so much they are allowed to use at any given time and there have been some leads who have had to give up their place in the production as they were so sensitive they had major reactions to the PG.
Those things give me pause. The only thing I know is for me, personally, I am much better vaping than smoking analogs. Do I expect them to be harm free? No as that is scientifically improbable. But everything in excess is harmful. We just need to be informed so we can choose what harms we allow our bodies to receive. Knowledge is power, and that also speaks to your own knowledge of your body and how it reacts to everything. Clark can do a lot to help us but being proactive will offer us a wonderful way to be proactive in our own lives in regards to everything.
Those things give me pause. The only thing I know is for me, personally, I am much better vaping than smoking analogs. Do I expect them to be harm free? No as that is scientifically improbable. But everything in excess is harmful. We just need to be informed so we can choose what harms we allow our bodies to receive. Knowledge is power, and that also speaks to your own knowledge of your body and how it reacts to everything. Clark can do a lot to help us but being proactive will offer us a wonderful way to be proactive in our own lives in regards to everything.
I understand there are some concerns but honestly just breathing air has pollutants. You would not believe what is in the air we breathe! Sure there are a couple of ingredients that with heavy use, over long term, could be problematic. But I believe smoking is much, much worse. These same ingredients are in cigarettes and I smoked those for over 20 years. I agree long term studies should be done. It's something many of us are full aware of.
Some of the studies floating around on the Internet are not reliable, while some are completely valid. I saw a study not long ago where they tested an ecig for femaldehyde. The scientist tested a regular ecig by using exhaled air from a user, and did the same with a regular cig. Both contained the substance. The ecig was about half the amount of a regular cigarette. However, another scientist done the same study and found no femaldehyde in ecigs. He proved that with no ecig a person breathing will exhale that same amount of femaldehyde. We naturally expel femaldehyde from breathing. Therefore that first study was severely flawed. My point is too many scientist are biased against ecigs/vaping. They favor the negatives and won't go out of their way if they did see a positive. Unless I know a scientist isn't biased I wouldn't put much stock in their findings.
I will continue to Vape.
Some of the studies floating around on the Internet are not reliable, while some are completely valid. I saw a study not long ago where they tested an ecig for femaldehyde. The scientist tested a regular ecig by using exhaled air from a user, and did the same with a regular cig. Both contained the substance. The ecig was about half the amount of a regular cigarette. However, another scientist done the same study and found no femaldehyde in ecigs. He proved that with no ecig a person breathing will exhale that same amount of femaldehyde. We naturally expel femaldehyde from breathing. Therefore that first study was severely flawed. My point is too many scientist are biased against ecigs/vaping. They favor the negatives and won't go out of their way if they did see a positive. Unless I know a scientist isn't biased I wouldn't put much stock in their findings.
I will continue to Vape.
It makes me sad when vendors put the entire industry at risk by over-promising and under-delivering. We should strive to do the opposite - UNDER-PROMISE and OVER-DELIVER, ALWAYS. It's not like you need a spectacular sales pitch to succeed in this industry - I mean - we're still pimping the most addictive substance on the planet.
Making a product less harmful than the world's leading cause of preventable death doesn't seem like an overwhelming task. Even if it was only a fraction of 1% safer, how many MILLIONS of lives would be extended even if only by a few days?
I'd lick liquid nicotine off a dirty boot before I'd stick another cigarette in my mouth - probably taste better too. *GAG*
So true Chill, I may never stop vaping as I would fear I'd be back on cigs *RIGHT NOW* but in the future who knows? But I know Clark will have my back no matter what. And when new qualified information (i.e. NOT bad science) comes out he will act on it, tell us all about it and how he is adjusting his juice to protect us and what we should expect.
Clark WILL NOT do a bait and switch like big baccy did to the smokers in the 60's, he will tell us right up front as soon as he knows. I have the deepest respect for Clark, Katy and their business!!!
Amen to that!
I have gone from smoking 2 packs a day, to vaping 32mg almost nonstop a day, to 6mg and about 2 ml a week. I am about to the point I am ready to cut my nic level again. Yes, it has taken me longer than most people would, but I will get there in my own good time. I know once I stop vaping, I won't go back because I stopped too soon.
I think most vapers know in their heart of hearts that it's less harmful than smoking, but vendors like me can't say that. I wonder if anyone has considered the financial implications of having a generation live 10-15 even 20 years longer than their predecessors. What happens to social security when retirees are collecting that much longer than anticipated? "They" say that's what they want, but policy sure doesn't seem to indicate that the powers that be are concerned about anything other than profit.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics... 11.7% of the people employed in the US work in healthcare. Generic Pharmaceutical Manufacturing is the fastest growing market segment of any business in any sector - an average annual growth of 9.6% from 2002-2012
If you take the accumulated employment of people who work in general medical and surgical hospitals, physicians offices, nursing care facilities, and home health care services... and lump them all together under the banner of "healthcare" - "Heathcare" is the only industry that employs more people than the US government. That's the math.
Absolutely. Me and my husband were discussing this last week. I think vaping goes totally against what our government needs. They need us to die as scheduled. They aren't going to come right out with this but I'm sure this is one of the reasons they want to regulate it so hard. Putting control back with BT and BP kills 2 birds with one stone. It's scary that our government is so screwed up our lives mean so little but I really believe that is the case.
By my genes I will still live longer than most people. One grandmother died when she was 99 after ten years of only drinking scotch and only eating chocolate on top of smoking 30 years. One grandmother died of an aneurism when she was 96 after smoking 4 packs a day for 40 years. My Great Aunt who never smoked lived to be 105. The men on both sides of my family died in their 40's and 50's due to cirrhosis of the liver or liver failure...except one uncle who kicked the alcohol to be killed by a drunk driver. The only thing I have to worry about is MS and that could claim my life far faster than anything else.
Oh the medical institution loves me!!! Drugs that only maintain my present existence cost $2800 a month and could kill me anyway...safe to say I have ZERO faith in western medicine...
Sorry for the rant...my sleep meds are hitting...
BIG PHARMA CAN BITE ME!!!
I'm happy to be vaping regardless of diketones though I do understand the concern. Vaping keeps me off the smokes and I figure it's safer than directing traffic at O'hare arrivals or working in a bus terminal.
- Status
