Another seemingly misleading article

[stols001]

I really wonder what vaping ketamine (pure, pharmaceutical grade) is like and if it would be a decent delivery system for ketamine.

Ketamine interested me a TON because they were trialing it for severe refractory treatment resistant depression, but the dose required made it necessary that an anesthesiologist be on board, and you needed treatments every three days.

There is now some evidence that it is additive over time, and some folks are going 2--3 weeks between treatments.

Starting it sort of seemed-- difficult especially since I wasn't on the East Coast where I could enroll in a study. I think it would have been ultimately less hard on my body than lithium. The results for many study participants were rather startling.

Oh well. I don't think I will be searching for some Ketamine to vape although it's an interesting idea. The other stuff, not so much.

Anna

 

[bombastinator]

I really wonder what vaping ketamine (pure, pharmaceutical grade) is like and if it would be a decent delivery system for ketamine.

Ketamine interested me a TON because they were trialing it for severe refractory treatment resistant depression, but the dose required made it necessary that an anesthesiologist be on board, and you needed treatments every three days.

There is now some evidence that it is additive over time, and some folks are going 2--3 weeks between treatments.

Starting it sort of seemed-- difficult especially since I wasn't on the East Coast where I could enroll in a study. I think it would have been ultimately less hard on my body than lithium. The results for many study participants were rather startling.

Oh well. I don't think I will be searching for some Ketamine to vape although it's an interesting idea. The other stuff, not so much.

Anna

Ketamine is famously dangerous. It was the primarily abused drug in the film “monster”. The characters would take ...... if they couldn’t get ketamine. Amateur experiments with it sound like a really bad idea.

 

[Sloth Tonight]

Well it seems to have made it even more dangerous to buy illegally. More fakes.

Very true, more variety and more dangerous fakes. All the more reason to legalize it federally.

It drives me insane that I'm granted the freedom by the government to go buy a bottle of liquor (flavored liquor, by the way), a drug that kills over 80,000 in the US alone every single year and is the third leading cause of preventable death. But I'm not granted the freedom to go buy MJ. And soon, won't be granted the freedom to go buy some vanilla e-liquid. But I can go buy cigarettes, the #1 cause of preventable death.

$$$

 

[DarrenMG]

Making diacetyl the demon is kind of pointless - Does Diacetyl in Vaping Cause Popcorn Lung? - Vaping360

The problem runs very deep. Blaming the media is also pointless. There is no politician on the planet that does not actually want the media or social media to spread the word. They can whine all they want about counter opinions, but if there was no media, nobody would hear them but the small handful of close by sychophants or doubters.

Hey I spoke to 200 of my greatest allies (sychophants), and yet there was no media to cover it! The politicians would so cry about that too, unless of course all they want is state run media, but how great would that be? (not, it's rhetorical).

 

[stols001]

Good god I'm not going to TRY it. I've already lost my teeth and thyroid to Lithium, I'd say I'm ah, committed.

I was just musing and wondering about what it would be like for depression, and what the delivery system and dose would need to be. I certainly am not going to try any "at home" experiments.

A lot of drugs famously thought to be "tragically dangerous" have been trialed for the type of depression or PTSD where like doctors are like, "This drug certainly can't make things WORSE."

Ketamine (under the correct circumstances) is considered to be a legitimate treatment for depression, it just happens to be one that insurance companies don't love to pay for and also, is sort of disruptive to living life.

It's not as dangerous as the propaganda states, other than if you take more than needed YEAH you are going to be pretty messed up and over time psychologically addicted, if not physically.

It's a bit like ecstasy. Sounds entertaining but NO, not going to try it.

Ketamine had a LONG life as a fairly safe anesthetic before people started abusing it.

When I say STARTLING effect on totally treatment resistant depression, I mean it.

I thought it also might be a bit too rich for my blood, being bipolar and all. Lithium was the right treatment for me.

I'm still wondering how vaping it might do. I don't think there will be studies, however. NOT because of the ketamine aspect but the VAPING aspect. That's a funding killer if I ever saw one.

But , no worries on this end, etc.

Anna

 

[bombastinator]

Very true, more variety and more dangerous fakes. All the more reason to legalize it federally.

It drives me insane that I'm granted the freedom by the government to go buy a bottle of liquor (flavored liquor, by the way), a drug that kills over 80,000 in the US alone every single year and is the third leading cause of preventable death. But I'm not granted the freedom to go buy MJ. And soon, won't be granted the freedom to go buy some vanilla e-liquid. But I can go buy cigarettes, the #1 cause of preventable death.

$$$

Alcohol and Tobacco got grandfathered. They tried to make alcohol illegal in the twenties. It went poorly. Personally I’m in no particular hurry to legalize nationally. It’s happening. Slowly. It could go even slower and still probably be fine. It will occur. Problems of various kinds will be found. They always are. Adjustments will be made.
We are learning, for example, that as pressure is put on illegal drug dealers by legal products they turn to more dangerous substances to sell. Monied interests are attempting to use this to push a rush to judgement and create a “fix” that serves their interests but won’t actually work, and may actually set them back.
The whole “must go faster!!!” thing is what seems to be causing a lot of problems lately. Not just for e-cigarettes but in a lot of places. The problem I think is human lives are too short and human scope of attention and vision is too narrow. We want things NOW! while we personally can enjoy them, and we can’t easily see what they affect.

 

[Sloth Tonight]

Alcohol and Tobacco got grandfathered. They tried to make alcohol illegal in the twenties. It went poorly. Personally I’m in no particular hurry to legalize nationally. It’s happening. Slowly. It could go even slower and still probably be fine. It will occur. Problems of various kinds will be found. They always are. Adjustments will be made.
We are learning, for example, that as pressure is put on illegal drug dealers by legal products they turn to more dangerous substances to sell. Monied interests are attempting to use this to push a rush to judgement and create a “fix” that serves their interests but won’t actually work, and may actually set them back.
The whole “must go faster!!!” thing is what seems to be causing a lot of problems lately. Not just for e-cigarettes but in a lot of places. The problem I think is human lives are too short and human scope of attention and vision is too narrow. We want things NOW! while we personally can enjoy them, and we can’t easily see what they affect.

We disagree very strongly, then. All good. I respect you nonetheless.

 

[bombastinator]

Good god I'm not going to TRY it. I've already lost my teeth and thyroid to Lithium, I'd say I'm ah, committed.

I thought with lithium the liver went first. Lithium isn’t really an antidepressant anyway, it’s a mood stabilizer. A bipolar drug. Also a very old and now rarely used one.

I was just musing and wondering about what it would be like for depression, and what the delivery system and dose would need to be. I certainly am not going to try any "at home" experiments.

A lot of drugs famously thought to be "tragically dangerous" have been trialed for the type of depression or PTSD where like doctors are like, "This drug certainly can't make things WORSE."

when problems are desperate solutions can be too.

Ketamine (under the correct circumstances) is considered to be a legitimate treatment for depression, it just happens to be one that insurance companies don't love to pay for and also, is sort of disruptive to living life.

I personally am more willing to wait for trials and testing. My situation is not as desperate as yours though currently.

It's not as dangerous as the propaganda states, other than if you take more than needed YEAH you are going to be pretty messed up and over time psychologically addicted, if not physically.

It's a bit like ecstasy. Sounds entertaining but NO, not going to try it.

. Iirc extecy is being trialed too, for other things.

Ketamine had a LONG life as a fairly safe anesthetic before people started abusing it.

safe as anesthetics go. Anesthetics are one of the least safe class of drugs. Nicotine was used as an anesthetic too, back in the day. It’s really unsafe to use as one though. For a time it was the traditional “elephant tranquilizer”. Animals can’t talk so it’s hard to ask them questions about effects.

When I say STARTLING effect on totally treatment resistant depression, I mean it.

I believe you. I saw them too. The word “Curative” was used iirc.

I thought it also might be a bit too rich for my blood, being bipolar and all. Lithium was the right treatment for me.

. That’s the problem with bipolar. It’s only sometimes depression. What if it made you permanently manic? Depression sucks but mania is dangerous and not just to the patient but everyone around them.

I'm still wondering how vaping it might do. I don't think there will be studies, however. NOT because of the ketamine aspect but the VAPING aspect. That's a funding killer if I ever saw one.

That’s the same mistake these dead kids made. Vaping doesn’t make something safer. It’s just another method of administering an aerosol. There are lots and lots of ways to administer aerosols.

But , no worries on this end, etc.

Anna

 

[bombastinator]

We disagree very strongly, then. All good. I respect you nonetheless.

Many do. You could always move to an area where it was legal for whatever purpose you require and your personal issue would be solved.

Not sure what you are disagreeing with exactly. The concept that legalization is probably inevitable? That you feel it’s not going fast enough? That the primary issue with vaping atm is that people are trying to make decisions too fast?

 

[Don29palms]

Very true, more variety and more dangerous fakes. All the more reason to legalize it federally.

It drives me insane that I'm granted the freedom by the government to go buy a bottle of liquor (flavored liquor, by the way), a drug that kills over 80,000 in the US alone every single year and is the third leading cause of preventable death. But I'm not granted the freedom to go buy MJ. And soon, won't be granted the freedom to go buy some vanilla e-liquid. But I can go buy cigarettes, the #1 cause of preventable death.

$$$

Neither alcohol or cigarettes are th ed cause of any deaths. Stupid people are the cause.

 

[bombastinator]

Neither alcohol or cigarettes are th ed cause of any deaths. Stupid people are the cause.

That logic can be applied to almost every cause of premature death ever. People are still dead though. One can choose to make it harder for people to make mistakes. That’s mostly what civilization has been about.
While omniscience would very likely be a wonderful thing people don’t have it. So we do what we can.

 

[Sloth Tonight]

Many do. You could always move to an area where it was legal for whatever purpose you require and your personal issue would be solved.

Not sure what you are disagreeing with exactly. The concept that legalization is probably inevitable? That you feel it’s not going fast enough? That the primary issue with vaping atm is that people are trying to make decisions too fast?

I have no personal issue. It's not about me any more than a flavor ban is. I agree legalization is inevitable, I'm disagreeing with the notion that it needs to drag out. I really can't fathom that viewpoint to be honest, but again, I'm not here to try and change your mind.

 

[AttyPops]

I kind of get it. Sometimes societies, having some form of mental-inertia or just lag-time for change, collectively need a respite from chaos and/or time to make change. And just procedurally, it can take time. Can take decades. Look at, say, the Woman's movement or civil rights, or...whatever.

It will never be fast enough for some, and of course is also too fast for others.

 

[bombastinator]

I have no personal issue. It's not about me any more than a flavor ban is. I agree legalization is inevitable, I'm disagreeing with the notion that it needs to drag out. I really can't fathom that viewpoint to be honest, but again, I'm not here to try and change your mind.

There in fact may be none. It’s hard to know. It’s more painful this way. Like easing into cold water instead of just jumping in. The pain is perhaps needless cruelty. Jumping in is a lousy time to learn you can’t swim though. There haven’t really been any insurmountable problems so far. It’s one of the reasons I think it’s inevitable. The very biggest one I’ve heard of to date is this current problem of people selling unsafe counterfeit drugs masquerading as government approved. I’m not sure a mass federal legalization would fix that one. Black market Cigarettes are still big business.

 

[Sloth Tonight]

There in fact may be none. It’s hard to know. It’s more painful this way. Like easing into cold water instead of just jumping in. The pain is perhaps needless cruelty. Jumping in is a lousy time to learn you can’t swim though. There haven’t really been any insurmountable problems so far. It’s one of the reasons I think it’s inevitable. The very biggest one I’ve heard of to date is this current problem of people selling unsafe counterfeit drugs masquerading as government approved. I’m not sure a mass federal legalization would fix that one. Black market Cigarettes are still big business.

I hear you on that. It wouldn't completely fix it, but it would diminish the one issue you mention by providing a legal avenue for people to obtain safer products in all parts of the country. Harm reduction, as I see it. Besides, it's been outlawed for decades. I don't see it as jumping in at this point, more like submerging the upper body after painfully chilling the lower (I love your analogy, it's awesome).

I'm not fully aware of what the cigarette black market is like. Going to look into that. That'll be an interesting read. I was being very sincere about respecting you by the way. You're a very thoughtful person. You helped keep me sane during the mouse fiasco

 

[bombastinator]

I hear you on that. It wouldn't completely fix it, but it would diminish the one issue you mention by providing a legal avenue for people to obtain safer products in all parts of the country. Harm reduction, as I see it. Besides, it's been outlawed for decades. I don't see it as jumping in at this point, more like submerging the upper body after painfully chilling the lower (I love your analogy, it's awesome).

I'm not fully aware of what the cigarette black market is like. Going to look into that. That'll be an interesting read. I was being very sincere about respecting you by the way. You're a very thoughtful person. You helped keep me sane during the mouse fiasco

My understanding is it’s fairly localized. It’s mostly smuggling so it tends to congregate around port cities where cigarette taxes are high. It’s something of a classic in New York City according to Hollywood. For a short while it was big business around Native American reservations as well because they’re islands of sovereignty in the midst of states. It was more or less quashed around reservations some years ago. A handleable problem. It’s not generally a death thing though because it’s mostly about avoiding taxes and even horrible southeast Asian cigarettes aren’t any more deadly than regular ones, generally. Tobacco is cheap. Sometimes even cheaper than old newspapers or whatever else they’d have to fill them with.

 

[escapetovape]

There is a great book I am about to write about, forgive me in advance, but most of us remember the popcorn lung story.

The book is "How Not to Be Wrong: The Power of Mathematical Thinking" by Jordan Ellenberg. The opening chapter starts with a story that I won't reiterate because doing so would do it no justice, but it's a great example of how we can end up focusing on 1, 2, even 400 people dying a year, while we gladly overlook 100 people dead a day, 300 wounded a day, or even 1500 people dying a day... and that is exactly what happened here. To score political points and votes, tell people whatever is currently popular. Yes I am a cynic

Sounds like my kind of book.

 

[Eskie]

Good god I'm not going to TRY it. I've already lost my teeth and thyroid to Lithium, I'd say I'm ah, committed.

I was just musing and wondering about what it would be like for depression, and what the delivery system and dose would need to be. I certainly am not going to try any "at home" experiments.

A lot of drugs famously thought to be "tragically dangerous" have been trialed for the type of depression or PTSD where like doctors are like, "This drug certainly can't make things WORSE."

Ketamine (under the correct circumstances) is considered to be a legitimate treatment for depression, it just happens to be one that insurance companies don't love to pay for and also, is sort of disruptive to living life.

It's not as dangerous as the propaganda states, other than if you take more than needed YEAH you are going to be pretty messed up and over time psychologically addicted, if not physically.

It's a bit like ecstasy. Sounds entertaining but NO, not going to try it.

Ketamine had a LONG life as a fairly safe anesthetic before people started abusing it.

When I say STARTLING effect on totally treatment resistant depression, I mean it.

I thought it also might be a bit too rich for my blood, being bipolar and all. Lithium was the right treatment for me.

I'm still wondering how vaping it might do. I don't think there will be studies, however. NOT because of the ketamine aspect but the VAPING aspect. That's a funding killer if I ever saw one.

But , no worries on this end, etc.

Anna

Esketamine has already been approved by the FDA for treatment resistant depression and is sold under the trade name of Spravato. It's delivered as a nasal spray. It is supposed to be used for induction under the direct supervision of a physician, so you can't just grab a sample from your doc and give it a shot at home. Yet.

I thought with lithium the liver went first. Lithium isn’t really an antidepressant anyway, it’s a mood stabilizer. A bipolar drug. Also a very old and now rarely used one.

Lithium is a mood stabilizer and despite it's serious side effects remains the standard all other drugs are compared to. It is still commonly prescribed for both bipolar illness and as a supplement to augment antidepressants in those with treatment resistance to an antidepressant alone. It's greatest risk is to the kidneys where it is excreted. It is not metabolized in the liver. If the dose is not carefully monitored it can cause kidney failure. Other mood stabilizers such as Depakote are metabolized in the liver and can over a long period of time cause liver damage and liver failure.

 

[DarrenMG]

Sounds like my kind of book.

It is very applicable to what we are seeing here. It's such a strange thing but if it was 1500 people dying per day we could easily get into a state of 'oh well, the new normal', but if one person dies from vaping after so many years, then it seems like an event worth noting.

Except even that didn't clearly happen. Increasingly we are learning those people who got sick did so from vaping drugs cut with vitamin E acetate.

Problem is most people don't want to know the details, they just want a bogeyman (or boogeyman) to blame. Keep it simple, I just want a simple story, vaping is bad right?

And... Anti-vaping, 'I am going save your teens', is an easy win to score political points. Yea, that sounds pessimistic, or maybe it is just realistic?

p.s. I personally despise conspiracy theories, but sadly until or if vaping raises the kind of tax dollars smoking does, I have to also think, the legit vaping industry is a free and easy whipping boy among politicians who will say anything to get more votes. It doesn't raise enough $ or benefit them enough to get behind it.

 

[Eskie]

3,000 Americans die from Aspirin every year. The only restriction on it is a tamper resistant cap. Granted, almost all of those deaths are in an older population group.

Tylenol (acetaminophen, or paracetamol as it's called in the EU and UK) remains a popular drug to commit suicide with. Deaths from overdoes, both intentional and accidental (just plain taking too much without realizing it) are estimated at about 450 per year. There are over 25,000 hospitalizations from Tylenol overdoses (intentional and accidental) per year. It is sold over the counter.