You should have seen the faces of Boehner's staff when I walked into their office (local) a year ago and started discussing vaping with them. They were polite and all but useless. Then I said can we talk about term limits. It was priceless.
Answers from your Congress Critters
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You should have seen the faces of Boehner's staff when I walked into their office (local) a year ago and started discussing vaping with them. They were polite and all but useless. Then I said can we talk about term limits. It was priceless.
It's true. I don't know the effects. I will take my chances on vaping rather than smoking. I would rather not be demonized by it either. I don't need someone to regulate me. Smoking has been around for 1000s of years. Well it may not be good for us.. neither is driving 75S during rush hour in the morning with 8 16 wheelers in front of me bellowing out lord knows what. I am not hurting anyone else. The government should leave me alone in my choices. Somehow my choices seem right for me. Theirs not so much. Common Core anyone? before that NCLB..
I see your point. I really do. For those of us that were absolutely not able to stop smoking, this is a godsend. We do consider this a reduced harm alternative. We really do care about our health and we read all the reports/studies that come out. We debate everything from nic to vg/pg and flavoring and food coloring and all of it. We are not going blindly into this. Well some of us anyway
I honestly feel for you, and totally understand. I am not your enemy. Just trying to get people to see this happens over and over. They want this eliminated. Not a reduced harm alternative, which this very well could be.
But, to get them to leave you alone for one second, you will need the scientific studies. Or the people to discredit whatever BS they are calling studies. Cause OSHA already has the dead mice on diacetyl. It won't be long till all you can vape is nasty tasting swill akin to the government approved gum. Or as pleasant as the gasoline patches.
I just would like to see a more scientific approach. If you got nothin, well - you got nothin to stand on, either.
No hate here, just truth.
All we have to go on is past research and there's little of it at that. The good part is that PG gets a relatively clean bill of health, so far. Nicotine is considered about as bad for you as all day coffee consumption. There are no free lunches, but vaping is more of a free lunch when compared to the long term medical costs of smoking.
Abstract on the 2 year rat and monkey study in 1942 with propylene glycol fog.
TESTS FOR THE CHRONIC TOXICITY OF PROPYLEXE GLYCOL AND TRIETHYLENE GLYCOL ON MONKEYS AND RATS BY VAPOR INHALATION AND ORAL ADMINISTRATION
Lab study result on long term nicotine inhalation by lab animals. All they found was that the nicotine group lost some weight during the study (appetite suppression?), but were healthy and free of detectable negative effects from the 2 year exposure to atmospheric nicotine.
Long-term effects of inhaled nicotine. [Life Sci. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI
Apparently, our esteemed Congressional members weren't privy to studies such as these. PG and Nic in fog isn't dangerous to rats and monkeys and maybe not to humans. That leaves flavorings and water to wonder about and maybe some VG that wasn't a part of the study.
Abstract on the 2 year rat and monkey study in 1942 with propylene glycol fog.
TESTS FOR THE CHRONIC TOXICITY OF PROPYLEXE GLYCOL AND TRIETHYLENE GLYCOL ON MONKEYS AND RATS BY VAPOR INHALATION AND ORAL ADMINISTRATION
Lab study result on long term nicotine inhalation by lab animals. All they found was that the nicotine group lost some weight during the study (appetite suppression?), but were healthy and free of detectable negative effects from the 2 year exposure to atmospheric nicotine.
Long-term effects of inhaled nicotine. [Life Sci. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI
Apparently, our esteemed Congressional members weren't privy to studies such as these. PG and Nic in fog isn't dangerous to rats and monkeys and maybe not to humans. That leaves flavorings and water to wonder about and maybe some VG that wasn't a part of the study.
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I honestly feel for you, and totally understand. I am not your enemy. Just trying to get people to see this happens over and over. They want this eliminated. Not a reduced harm alternative, which this very well could be.
But, to get them to leave you alone for one second, you will need the scientific studies. Or the people to discredit whatever BS they are calling studies. Cause OSHA already has the dead mice on diacetyl. It won't be long till all you can vape is nasty tasting swill akin to the government approved gum. Or as pleasant as the gasoline patches.
I just would like to see a more scientific approach. If you got nothin, well - you got nothin to stand on, either.
No hate here, just truth.
Almost your entire statement is incorrect. We do have really good studies which are posted all over this forum. I suggest you read them. Obviously; there are no long-term studies of vaping as it is simply to new for there to be 20-30 year-long studies.
To your other point about diacetyl free juices tasting nasty, that is again incorrect. I am currently vaping a banana custard juice that has been tested to be free of diacetyl and acetyl propionyl. While it is not as good as a juice with diacetyl in it...it is still excellent and definitely not nasty.
Unfortunately, forum threads - no matter how spirited - and email form letters just won't change that.
I know, I'm wrong. And when the hammer comes down, it'll be cause I just didn't try hard enough.
You missed the point of the other posts I made that you didn't quote. You have studies? Great. Hit 'em with it. Oh, they don't want to hear it? What a wonder. More form letter emails will surely change that.
Nevermind. Do the whole Occupy Wallstreet thingy. You see how far it got them. If you just get mad enough about it and spread Internet pixie dust, you can defeat da man.
Taste is subjective. Lots of people say saccharin tastes exactly like sugar, with no aftertaste. I like diacetyl. My favorite flavors are loaded with it. I accept the risk. Should be my right to. Should also be my right to smoke wherever I want to, as well, without a bunch of born-again non-smokers ready to burn me at the stake.
We can all dream.
Once again, it's all about the tax money. Congress knows that cigarettes kill. The states are addicted to the Tobacco Settlement money. When that runs out, where will they turn? Probably to ecigs. It's pretty much a given that they are looking for a new cash cow. There's ten more years to go before the 1998 master settlement agreement runs out. The states aren't using much of it for educating kids on the perils of smoking. It's a general budget item for them.
1998 Tobacco Settlement: Decade of Broken Promises - Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids
1998 Tobacco Settlement: Decade of Broken Promises - Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids
Why are you here? You seem to think our efforts are pointless and you are wrong. While we may not end up at the point we want to; with our efforts the result will be better than without our efforts. There has been progress made thanks to the vaping community and more will be made.
If you feel that it is worthless to try, you are entitled to your opinion. I just do not understand why you bother posting here?
There are many, many taxes that fall into that category... they've figured out that once we get used to paying out for something, even if that something is no longer necessary, we'll keep paying out...
I think the price of gas has fallen into that category.... we'll never see < $3.00 a gallon again...
I think the price of gas has fallen into that category.... we'll never see < $3.00 a gallon again...
Yes, you are one of my enemies. You are the voice of self-doubt, of procrastination that may sound like reason. That's OK though. We can be enemies AND friends, frenemies.
I would consider the answers to some of your questions, common knowledge for vapers, even new ones. But, i'm not suprised if someone who has been vaping for a month just didn't care to research any of this yet. We are all just people with our own priorities.
Some of the questions almost seem biased to me, right from the start.... Is NICOTINE less of a danger... hmm... is that the only difference between vaping and smoking? How old is this FAD? FAD?
Some seem silly... know long term consequences from a short term study... there have been longer term studies on some of the constituents of e-juice.
You should be able to answer your own questions about studies fairly easily using ECF as a jump point, should you care to do the research.
So, while I will presume that you just came up with those questions really fast, and may have already known some of the answers... I still just didn't like seeing it written out like that from another vaper, on ECF, in this thread. Again, that's ok though, as we need discourse such as this.
Ultimately, no one will wait 30-50 years for long-term studies, neither side,... nor should we.
Again with these partial-truths, or perhaps I should call them highly-selective statements. While I agree that forum threads and email form letters probably won't change the minds of enough politicians, that's not all that is being done, nor do I think that claim has been made here OR that it's only the mind of politicians we are after, so I'm confused why you would pick those couple of actions specifically. And every time someone says for us to stop wasting our time trying, I question that persons motives. Let's play it the other way... twall, you are not going to make me change my mind about speaking out to politicians, not via forum threads - no matter how spirited... so why are you wasting your time trying?
What harm does 'the movement' cause you to warrant any action from you? I'm just a bit confused by your joining in on this thread. You seemed to be coming off as 'we should wait until there is evidence before we act', which is prudent... but there is evidence already, and more and more evidence keeps coming out, and it's more and more in our favor.
Based on what you have written in this thread, I doubt your not trying hard enough will really make any difference, we agree on what I presume was a sarcastic remark.
Because I choose to. Why to you bother to engage me if my points are incorrect, stupid, and invalid?
Something a lot of folks don't think about:
When we find something wrong with the products we use for vaping, there are solutions. There are no solutions to the problems related to burning tobacco (smoking)
Example:
The 2009 FDA study found traces of DG in e-liquids. Now we understood traces of DG being present in VG produced prior to 2007, but why was it being found in PG/VG produced after 2007? What we found was that it was coming from cellulose (dust from paper and cardboard packaging materials stored in the mixing laboratory) EASY SOLUTION, stop storing packaging materials in the mixing laboratory!
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If you were as [Moderated] up toward your political foes as you are to me, a fellow vaper - you would actually get somewhere. My point is proven. You would rather eat your own and destroy one another on semantics and minutiae than fight the actual enemy. My points are BS? Yup. So are theirs. My logic skewed? Yup. So is theirs. Every word I said messed up? Yup. So is theirs.
But, you blast me with your wily wit, and .....foot around with form emails with the real enemy. Doubt anyone will ever get it. No matter.
But, you blast me with your wily wit, and .....foot around with form emails with the real enemy. Doubt anyone will ever get it. No matter.
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I actually did, at least to proprietors/mgrs. We lived in a small town that didn't have many sit-down restaurants; at the time, the indoor-smoking-ban that's now statewide was limited to just a few counties, and ours wasn't one of them, but when our favorite restaurant suddenly removed their 'smoking section' I asked for and spoke to the mgr -- right out in front, where pretty much everyone in the restaurant could see and hear, and when he told me that the restaurant was now non-smoking, I told him quite loudly that they would never get a penny more from our family, and we left, to go down the street to a chinese restaurant -- which still allowed smoking. While there, I mentioned this to the owner, who told me he was glad for our business, but that soon the state-wide ban would go into effect and he would have no choice but to also go non-smoking. I told him that although I regretted it, I would still patronize his restaurant, for not forcing the ban before it was actually "the law." And we never did go back to that other restaurant.
Because we were so complacent, I don't think they were expecting us to put up any fight when they decided to come after the ecig. I do have hope that we will be heard and I will continue to be as vocal as possible. They didn't count on us actually raising our voices.
I will continue to fight. At the least I will know that I tried my best. When we win, I can say I helped
I agree, and same here. What's that quote, about the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing? I'm not a man, but I'm doing all that *I* can -- which isn't much, granted, but it's better than just whining about the evil ANTZ while doing nothing at all to rain on their parade. I don't have much money or much of a budget for anything but survival, but I considered making small contributions to both this forum and CASAA being the very least I could do, to help further this cause of being allowed to save our own lives, along with all the twittering and facebooking and letter writing. They may be "non-profit" but still need money just to continue operating.
Andria
Well I had lunch with my state district congressman last week, what have you done lately?
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I really don't, either. But you know... I'm in my early 50's. I've seen government take so many of my rights away and I've just become so tired of it all. Smokers and Non-Smokers used to peacefully co-exist. Back in the day, except for when oxygen was in use, there really wasn't anywhere you *couldn't* smoke. Then the Surgeon General figured out what BT was up to and we all found out just how bad smoking really was - bad... but not illegal. And so it became that you couldn't smoke indoors in public places, except for restaurants and bars. Then Non-Smokers want their own area in restaurants and bars. I had no problem with that at all! But then it became that the smoking area got smaller... and smaller. And then the smoking area was outside. And then it was outside but not near any entrances or exits (in other words, go smoke by the dumpster in the snow). Then no smoking in or around *any* government buildings. This also included the grounds outside. And I complied even though by this time I'm being made to feel like a social pariah or a criminal when I don't have so much as a parking violation to my name. Then the flavored cigarettes I used to love (Sweet Dreams Belgian Chocolate and Djarum Blacks Clove) were taken off the shelves because the government, who now raises children instead of their parents, felt that these flavors appealed to children - even though they weren't sold to minors and I, an adult way beyond the age of 18, enjoyed them. So now I'm being told where I can smoke and what flavor I can have. And I comply.
Now that I'm trying *not* to smoke for my own sake and the sake of those around me and Chantix, Zyban, Nicorette gum, hypnotism, patches and lozenges have all failed miserably, I start to vape again. I enjoy it and it seems to be working for me. I like changing flavors and have cut my smoking to less than half my normal. Changing flavors multiple times during the day helps this along. It's a start. I'm trying to be a model citizen again. But now government is afraid that the flavors I love and vaping in general appeals to children... and in my mind I see this chain of events again which ultimately effects my right to decide for myself the best method for me to possibly quit smoking coming into question. So how long will it be before I'm told if I can vape and what flavors I can have? As it is, most of you who have already quit smoking and vape instead are slowly finding that you're only able to vape outside... with the smokers... even though you do not smoke... in the nearly non-existent smoking area... inconveniently located in the back, near the dumpster.
And yet, if you go to any liquor store, you will find strawberry tequila, sour apple vodka, chocolate liqueur, banana daiquiri mix, and so on and so on... Those flavors appeal to children, too, just like my flavored smokes that were taken away from me and my flavored eliquids which thankfully, I still have - for the moment. But you know why there's still flavored alcohol? Because government couldn't put a stop to it. Hence why I think of Prohibition. People need to get fed up or get creative. I don't want to be a criminal. But at this stage of my life and having seen the slow progression of my rights being taken away one by one over the years, I seriously do *not* like being backed into a corner.
My apologies for the rant. I just really want to quit smoking and I feel like any minute, the rug is going to be pulled out from under me before I reach my goal.
I live in Massachusetts.
Yes, they will, and gov'ts will always find a way to get MO MONEY... One of the contributing factors to the repeal of prohibition was the Great Depression -- very few were working, so very few were paying taxes, so obviously the gov't was hit as badly as the people. What woke them up was the realization that they could tax alcohol to raise money -- sound familiar? Our present economy bears a lot of resemblance to the Great Depression, especially in terms of employment. This is why I truly believe that all this chest-thumping from the gov't is just to scare us, make us afraid of bans, so that when they finally do get some "regulations" in place, those won't do much at all to deny us the e-cigs we favor, but WILL tax the hell out of them, and we'll be so grateful they didn't ban them, we'll pay without batting an eye.
Just my humble opinion of course... but that's how it looks to me.
Andria
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